Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here for Dragon Serpents
https://www.crepnw.com/
Click here to visit Classifieds

THE ARTICLE I WAS TOLD TO READ.............

cv768 Jan 07, 2004 09:32 AM

Research Article
Effects of Artificial Ultraviolet Light Exposure on Reproductive Success of the Female Panther Chameleon (Furcifer pardalis) in Captivity
Gary W. Ferguson 1 *, W.H. Gehrmann 1, T.C. Chen 2, E.S. Dierenfeld 3, M.F. Holick 2
1Department of Biology, Texas Christian University, Fort Worth, Texas
2Vitamin D, Skin, and Bone Laboratory, Boston University Medical Center, Boston, Massachusetts
3Department of Wildlife Nutrition, Wildlife Conservation Society, Bronx, New York

email: Gary W. Ferguson (g.ferguson@tcu.edu)

*Correspondence to Gary W. Ferguson, Department of Biology, Texas Christian University, Box 298930, Fort Worth, TX 76129

Funded by:
True Chameleons; Grant Number: 99
NIH; Grant Number: AR 36963

Keywords
UVB • reproduction • chameleon

Abstract
Having previously documented experimentally the need for ultraviolet B (UVB) irradiation (290-315 nm) in the light environment of captive female panther chameleons (Furcifer pardalis) to ensure hatching success of their eggs, we investigated optimal UVB irradiation levels. From 1996-1998 28 hatchling female panther chameleons were raised to maturity and bred (using vitamin and mineral-fortified insect diets low in vitamin D) in nine different artificial UVB light environments. Seven of the environments included long (12 hr/day) low irradia-tion exposures ranging from 1.7 to 22 W/cm2 UVB, with a corresponding conversion of provitamin D3 to photoproducts in in vitro models of 0.18 to 1.52% in 2 hr. Two environments included short (0.5 and 1.0 hr/day), high irradiation exposures of 55 and 49 W/cm2 UVB, respectively, with a corres-ponding conversion of provitamin D3 to photoproducts in in vitro models of 8.3% to 14.6% in the respective 0.5- and 1.0-hr time periods. Females raised with the mid-level long/low exposures (5-15 W/cm2 UVB; 0.52-1.32% conversion to photoproducts in in vitro models) produced viable eggs with a significantly higher percentage of hatching compared to those with the extreme (highest or lowest) long/low exposures. Those raised with the short-/high-exposure environments produced viable eggs with a generally high percentage of hatching, but success was variable. The results and techniques for light quality assessment are interpreted, with recommendations for practical application by the herpetoculturist desiring to successfully breed panther chameleons in captivity. Zoo Biol 21:525-537, 2002. © 2002 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

I'm actually going to e-mail this character and see what he has to say. This article is kind of inconclusive and not all that concrete. Plus the article is only about Panthers and not other species. We are not raising panthers. Either way, the chameleons in the study were exposed to 8.3-14% UVB...SOMETHING THAT YOUR BULBS CANNOT PROVIDE! Unless you setup 5 or 10 of them.

Well here is his e-mail address...feel free to question him, as I certainly will be doing.

Gary W. Ferguson (g.ferguson@tcu.edu)
-----
Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
1.1.0 Savannah Monitors

Replies (16)

eric adrignola Jan 07, 2004 10:17 AM

esentially that females that were raised with either very low, or very high levels of UVB produced LESS than those with moderate levels of UVB(from what I can tell), about 20-50microwatts per square cm, for only part of the day.

That sounds about right. A MV bulb placed a foot or two away over part of a cage will give these results. IF you have a small reptarium, and have a 100W powersun in the middle, you're going to end up have about 50-100microwatts/cm2 ALL DAY, which, taking into account the habit of wild animals to move in and out of sunlight when necessary, would probably give them TOO much UVA&B.

I say people with small cages can still use them, just spread the light out over distance and between other cages. One MV bulb providing UVB (even just a few hours a day) to two cages is better, chaper and longer lasting than the reptisun equivalent, which would be at least one bulb PER cage.

I use cheap florescents for general lighting, and gro-light/high UVA flood/incandescents for basking(better color than reg. incandescents), and MV for UVB(which is currently on the little female veilds)

On a side note, when I had the MV on my male veild, I ALSO ad to use a 120W flood for basking. He would bask inthe MV , then go to the flood. He seemed to "get enough" of UVB, but still wanted warmth. Evidence that a MV bulb DIRECTLY over a small cage providing unescapeable radiation is not a good idea, as they do NOT want to ALWAYS be in UV radiation.

I want to read that paper in some more detail.
seems pretty interesting.

E

lele Jan 07, 2004 10:24 AM

Chris - these studies were between 1996 and 1998. That was six years ago and even I know (being relatively new to cham keeping) that a lot of research has been done since then

The reason it seems inconclusive is because you are only reading an abstract, not the entire article. Morgana from Reptayls offered to email the entire article to anyone who wanted it. I have it, so if you want it let me or Morgana know.

And lastly, you pointed out that you are NOT keeping panthers. From what I understand, and common knowledge of the natural world, the amount of needed UVB rays will vary considerably depending on the natural environment for each species.

I see from your site you are planning on selling some herps and offer care sheets. If you are going to include cham's I hope you find the correct info to pass along to your customers - that was not a shot, just an observation.

lele

>>Research Article
>>Effects of Artificial Ultraviolet Light Exposure on Reproductive Success of the Female Panther Chameleon (Furcifer pardalis) in Captivity
>>Gary W. Ferguson 1 *, W.H. Gehrmann 1, T.C. Chen 2, E.S. Dierenfeld 3, M.F. Holick 2
>>1Department of Biology, Texas Christian University, Fort Worth, Texas
>>2Vitamin D, Skin, and Bone Laboratory, Boston University Medical Center, Boston, Massachusetts
>>3Department of Wildlife Nutrition, Wildlife Conservation Society, Bronx, New York
>>
>>email: Gary W. Ferguson (g.ferguson@tcu.edu)
>>
>>*Correspondence to Gary W. Ferguson, Department of Biology, Texas Christian University, Box 298930, Fort Worth, TX 76129
>>
>>Funded by:
>> True Chameleons; Grant Number: 99
>> NIH; Grant Number: AR 36963
>>
>>Keywords
>>UVB • reproduction • chameleon
>>
>>
>>Abstract
>>Having previously documented experimentally the need for ultraviolet B (UVB) irradiation (290-315 nm) in the light environment of captive female panther chameleons (Furcifer pardalis) to ensure hatching success of their eggs, we investigated optimal UVB irradiation levels. From 1996-1998 28 hatchling female panther chameleons were raised to maturity and bred (using vitamin and mineral-fortified insect diets low in vitamin D) in nine different artificial UVB light environments. Seven of the environments included long (12 hr/day) low irradia-tion exposures ranging from 1.7 to 22 W/cm2 UVB, with a corresponding conversion of provitamin D3 to photoproducts in in vitro models of 0.18 to 1.52% in 2 hr. Two environments included short (0.5 and 1.0 hr/day), high irradiation exposures of 55 and 49 W/cm2 UVB, respectively, with a corres-ponding conversion of provitamin D3 to photoproducts in in vitro models of 8.3% to 14.6% in the respective 0.5- and 1.0-hr time periods. Females raised with the mid-level long/low exposures (5-15 W/cm2 UVB; 0.52-1.32% conversion to photoproducts in in vitro models) produced viable eggs with a significantly higher percentage of hatching compared to those with the extreme (highest or lowest) long/low exposures. Those raised with the short-/high-exposure environments produced viable eggs with a generally high percentage of hatching, but success was variable. The results and techniques for light quality assessment are interpreted, with recommendations for practical application by the herpetoculturist desiring to successfully breed panther chameleons in captivity. Zoo Biol 21:525-537, 2002. © 2002 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
>>
>>I'm actually going to e-mail this character and see what he has to say. This article is kind of inconclusive and not all that concrete. Plus the article is only about Panthers and not other species. We are not raising panthers. Either way, the chameleons in the study were exposed to 8.3-14% UVB...SOMETHING THAT YOUR BULBS CANNOT PROVIDE! Unless you setup 5 or 10 of them.
>>
>>Well here is his e-mail address...feel free to question him, as I certainly will be doing.
>>
>>Gary W. Ferguson (g.ferguson@tcu.edu)
>>-----
>>Chris Vanderwees
>>REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
>>E-mail Me
>>1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
>>1.2.0 Green Basilisks
>>1.1.0 Crested Geckos
>>1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
>>1.1.0 Corn Snakes
>>1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
>>0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
>>2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
>>0.1.0 Green Iguanas
>>1.1.0 Savannah Monitors
-----
0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 green anoles Jaida & Jetta
0.1 brown anole - Jamaica
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta

cv768 Jan 07, 2004 11:42 AM

Thank you LELE...I have actually e-mailed the professor who did the experiments...so I'll consult him with a few important questions...

Also, I would like the article if you still have it. Just send it to my e-mail...it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
-----
Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
1.1.0 Savannah Monitors

lele Jan 07, 2004 12:21 PM

>>Thank you LELE...I have actually e-mailed the professor who did the experiments...so I'll consult him with a few important questions...
>>
>>Also, I would like the article if you still have it. Just send it to my e-mail...it would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>>Thanks.
>>-----
>>Chris Vanderwees
>>REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
>>E-mail Me
>>1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
>>1.2.0 Green Basilisks
>>1.1.0 Crested Geckos
>>1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
>>1.1.0 Corn Snakes
>>1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
>>0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
>>2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
>>0.1.0 Green Iguanas
>>1.1.0 Savannah Monitors
-----
0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 green anoles Jaida & Jetta
0.1 brown anole - Jamaica
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta

eric adrignola Jan 07, 2004 01:02 PM

please. I emailed you as well,
Thanks

lele Jan 07, 2004 05:56 PM

>>please. I emailed you as well,
>>Thanks
-----
0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 green anoles Jaida & Jetta
0.1 brown anole - Jamaica
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta

ChrisAnderson Jan 07, 2004 11:06 AM

>>Research Article
>>Effects of Artificial Ultraviolet Light Exposure on Reproductive Success of the Female Panther Chameleon (Furcifer pardalis) in Captivity
>>Gary W. Ferguson 1 *, W.H. Gehrmann 1, T.C. Chen 2, E.S. Dierenfeld 3, M.F. Holick 2
>>1Department of Biology, Texas Christian University, Fort Worth, Texas
>>2Vitamin D, Skin, and Bone Laboratory, Boston University Medical Center, Boston, Massachusetts
>>3Department of Wildlife Nutrition, Wildlife Conservation Society, Bronx, New York
>>
>>email: Gary W. Ferguson (g.ferguson@tcu.edu)
>>
>>*Correspondence to Gary W. Ferguson, Department of Biology, Texas Christian University, Box 298930, Fort Worth, TX 76129
>>
>>Funded by:
>> True Chameleons; Grant Number: 99
>> NIH; Grant Number: AR 36963
>>
>>Keywords
>>UVB • reproduction • chameleon
>>
>>
>>Abstract
>>Having previously documented experimentally the need for ultraviolet B (UVB) irradiation (290-315 nm) in the light environment of captive female panther chameleons (Furcifer pardalis) to ensure hatching success of their eggs, we investigated optimal UVB irradiation levels. From 1996-1998 28 hatchling female panther chameleons were raised to maturity and bred (using vitamin and mineral-fortified insect diets low in vitamin D) in nine different artificial UVB light environments. Seven of the environments included long (12 hr/day) low irradia-tion exposures ranging from 1.7 to 22 W/cm2 UVB, with a corresponding conversion of provitamin D3 to photoproducts in in vitro models of 0.18 to 1.52% in 2 hr. Two environments included short (0.5 and 1.0 hr/day), high irradiation exposures of 55 and 49 W/cm2 UVB, respectively, with a corres-ponding conversion of provitamin D3 to photoproducts in in vitro models of 8.3% to 14.6% in the respective 0.5- and 1.0-hr time periods. Females raised with the mid-level long/low exposures (5-15 W/cm2 UVB; 0.52-1.32% conversion to photoproducts in in vitro models) produced viable eggs with a significantly higher percentage of hatching compared to those with the extreme (highest or lowest) long/low exposures. Those raised with the short-/high-exposure environments produced viable eggs with a generally high percentage of hatching, but success was variable. The results and techniques for light quality assessment are interpreted, with recommendations for practical application by the herpetoculturist desiring to successfully breed panther chameleons in captivity. Zoo Biol 21:525-537, 2002. © 2002 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
>>
>>I'm actually going to e-mail this character and see what he has to say. This article is kind of inconclusive and not all that concrete. Plus the article is only about Panthers and not other species. We are not raising panthers. Either way, the chameleons in the study were exposed to 8.3-14% UVB...SOMETHING THAT YOUR BULBS CANNOT PROVIDE! Unless you setup 5 or 10 of them.
>>
>>Well here is his e-mail address...feel free to question him, as I certainly will be doing.
>>
>>Gary W. Ferguson (g.ferguson@tcu.edu)
>>-----
>>Chris Vanderwees
>>REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
>>E-mail Me
>>1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
>>1.2.0 Green Basilisks
>>1.1.0 Crested Geckos
>>1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
>>1.1.0 Corn Snakes
>>1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
>>0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
>>2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
>>0.1.0 Green Iguanas
>>1.1.0 Savannah Monitors

Chris

You shouldn't just base your opinion on the article based on the abstract. You will find when you actually read the ARTICLE that he used numerous commercially available and common UV lights and if i'm not mistaking (I don't have my copy here with me), he used the reptisun 5.0 also (can one of you with the article in front of you confirm this for me, mine is at home). Feel free to email Dr. Ferguson but I fear doing to before you read the actual article will just be an embarassment.

Chris
-----
Chris Anderson
parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/
Captive Chameleon Bloodline Tacking Database - http://www.chameleondatabase.com/

cv768 Jan 07, 2004 11:46 AM

I'm going to e-mail him with a few general and important questions...and yes I have not read the entire article...LELE offered to e-mail it over and if anyone else has any substancial articles or journals I would like them too.

I'm not trying to change the world of chameleon keeping and breeding...I'm also not trying to give anyone a rough time or say what's right or wrong...

Everything I have discussed and posted is based on my own personal opinions from what I've read, and discussed with other educated people. I did take back the whole useless comment because of course the bulb has benefits...but not enough benefits to make it worth while...in my opinion.

I'll let you know if I get a reply back from the professor...

I'll also post my original message as well as his reply.
-----
Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
1.1.0 Savannah Monitors

lele Jan 07, 2004 11:16 AM

..got it from Morgana at Reptayls. Anyone who wants it email me directly and I will send it to you.

I think someone posted this recently as well. I don't know where they got their research but makes for an intersting read
UV lighting

-----
0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 green anoles Jaida & Jetta
0.1 brown anole - Jamaica
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta

Carlton Jan 07, 2004 05:51 PM

Just in case you had not seen this herp nutrition info site. It might add new thoughts to this discussion. No I'm not going to wade into it myself...I've used ReptiSuns on various species for years and have never had mineral deficiency problems. They work for me regardless of the cage size etc. Here's the site:

http://www.herpnutrition.com

She also posts nutrition articles on http://www.chameleonnews.com

reptayls Jan 07, 2004 11:25 PM

Chris,

I don't understand how your animals can produce the vit D3 needed for proper absorbtion of calcium, without UVB lighting. Every article I have read clearly states that it's necessary. All say the same thing: UVA is needed for behavorial and psycholgic effects but doesn't activate the vitamin precursors in the skin. UVB is necessary for vitamin D activation. So if you don't supply some form of complete UV lighting, how is this process supposed to work?

Dr. Mader, DVM (Reptile Medicine and Surgery), clearly states this in many places in his book. Section II Biology page 58 is the first place he mentions this. DMV's Boyer, Dugan, Frye, Snider, and Slavens also state the same. Petr Necas clearly states this in his book "Chameleons-Natures Hidden Jewels" - page 79, if you want to look it up. Phillippe de Vosjoli - "Care and Breediong of Chameleons", first mentions it in caring for the Jackson chameleon, page 47. Yes, we have an extensive cham library and we both read alot. All these educated Veterinary doctors and experienced authors seem to disagree with your thinking. Care to comment?

One other question. Why would you paint the inside of your cages with a water based latex paint? Eventually the paint will peel with continued exposure to the moisture produced by misting. The first thought that comes to my mind is impacted intestines and a disruption to the Coccidia balance in the digestive tract. Hope you have a good supply of Albon on hand.

Not attacking you, however, your comment in many posts has left me with a lot of questions that were only half answered.

Yosemite
Reptayls, Ltd.

cv768 Jan 08, 2004 12:46 AM

First off...the book written by Doctor Mader is almost 10 years old...a little outdated and obsolete to be reading information from.

The other book...Chameleon Jewels or whatever it is, was written in 1999...another book almost 5 years old...you do know that the information in books...(especially in ones relating to reptiles) is updated on a regular basis through journals and studies preformed by professors and doctors world wide?

If I wanted to read old outdated books I'd pick up a copy of Care and Breeding of Chameleons and read the section on vieleds where it states that a female not bred before the age of 6 months will "surely die from being egg bound".

As for the comment about the paint...it is exterior latex paint...I'm not professional carpenter but I'm pretty sure if it's exterior it is meant to withstand wet weather conditions. Even so, in the event of peeling the chameleons would obviously be removed until the problem could be fixed...either way...no problems yet and John Lucas of, Chameleon paradise suggested it should be fine.
-----
Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
1.1.0 Savannah Monitors

reptayls Jan 08, 2004 01:36 AM

Chris,

I guess that since it has been more than 10 years, the info about alcohol causing liver failure or smoking causes lung cancer are also no longer valid?

It appears that you will disagree with almost everything, so enough said as you again failed to answer the questions asked.

Yosemite

ChrisAnderson Jan 08, 2004 05:46 AM

>>The other book...Chameleon Jewels or whatever it is, was written in 1999...another book almost 5 years old...you do know that the information in books...(especially in ones relating to reptiles) is updated on a regular basis through journals and studies preformed by professors and doctors world wide?
>>

Chris,

Once again, all this research you've claimed to have done is showing itself to be untrue. You obviously do not have this book yet most consider it one of, if not the best book on chameleons. While yes, it was published in 1999 and that was almost 5 years ago, Petr Necas was at my house 8 days ago before he left for Kenya. At this time, he went over with me the new edition of his book with his updates. I can tell you that this section is current. I guess in a couple months when the new addition comes out, this information will be credible again, until that time, I have to admit listening to your excuses and perversions of the truth are almost amusing. Keep up the good work!

Regards,

Chris
-----
Chris Anderson
parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/
Captive Chameleon Bloodline Tacking Database - http://www.chameleondatabase.com/

cv768 Jan 08, 2004 12:01 PM

I'm glad you're having fun.

You're right, I definetly do not own that book. But if it were written 5 years ago, there most likely is not a chapter devoted to supplementation and how bad it is for your chameleons. (or how good it is)

the truth is that there is no information on the subject of supplementation and chameleons, so I'm only going from my opinion on the matter as well as what others who have tried it before have said.

My above post will cover the rest...in the reply from ferguson
-----
Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
1.1.0 Savannah Monitors

lele Jan 08, 2004 07:15 PM

that the research done in the journal article by Dr. Ferguson was done b/t 1996-1998. Your comments on the Cham book seems a bit inconsistent, no?
-----
0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 green anoles Jaida & Jetta
0.1 brown anole - Jamaica
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta

Site Tools