Reptile & Amphibian Forums

As someone who is new to dart frogs (I just got 2 adult pairs a few weeks ago) I find it interesting that so many people have such strong feelings about community housing as it relates to "hybridization." Until these frogs, my exclusive herp for the last 6 years have been green tree pythons... I maintain & breed a decent size collection of around 50 animals. Similar to PDF's, GTP's are classified by some people into localities. There are locality GTP's and "designer" GTPs which, basically, are created by mixing localities.

I think that people need to ease up on the holier than thou attitude when it comes to this issue. A poster in a thread below made a statement that "as you mature as a hobbyist, you will want to avoid "hybridization." I could not disagree more, as beauty is in the eye of the beholder. These same people also need to learn the definition of the word hybrid. A hybrid is a crossing of two distinct species. Just like all GTP's are Morelia viridis regardless of locality, so are all D. tinctorius. So really, if you were to "cross breed" a citronella with a powder blue, you will still have D. tinctorius, NOT a "hybrid." In gtp's the locality crosses tend to produce the most outlandish and striking specimens... has this been explored with PDF's? I consider myself a very advanced hobbyist, and can tell you that "preserving the natural lines" is of little interest to me. The frogs we produce here will NEVER be introduced back into the wild, and to imply that keeping an animal in a glass cage is close to nature is ridiculous. These captive animals are about as far from natural as you can get. I want crazy looking animals, whether they would actually occur in nature that way or not (although I am 100% positive that integration occurs where these morph ranges overlap). If mixing localities produces an unreal looking frog, I am all for it.

Of course, this is all just my opinion and I am not trying to imply that it's better or worse than anyone elses. Only that there is room in the hobby for everyone's interests and people should be more open minded.

Flame away...................

Obviously you've done your homework and you already know what the arguments against it are. So it appears that you are only trying to "stir the pot". Nice try, hopefully everyone else will have the sense not to take the bait.
Hey, if you want to build Frankenfrog then go for it - just don't try and pass it off on us.

hmm... funny how I thought this was a discussion forum... all I want to do is start a discussion, not stir the $h!t. I am just curious as to why the strong opinions on this issue??

If you simply like the idea of knowing you have a "natural" frog, then more power to you. After the "Frankenfrog" comment, I am curious what you would you call a naturally occuring cross that must exist where distinct morph habitats overlap??

If you somehow think that what we do in this hobby has anything to do with natural conservation, then I will argue that point to the bitter end.

I am not looking to flame anyone... is it possible to have an educated debate on the subject without having people freak out?

Howdy...I'm the one you misquoted about the maturation in the hobby comment. I didnt intend to offend anyone. Just stated my opinion. Dont really see anyone freaking, except perhaps you. Its hard to tell in this medium. True different species of the same genus can and sometimes do cross in nature, but it is rare. It usually occurs in instances like Lake Victoria where the environment has changed so rapidly that the evolution process speeds up in an effort to survive. I know I'm being simplistic here, but I tend to agree with the other poster who's assumption was that your thread was started for less than admirable reasons. So I dont want to waste my breath.

The way i see this issue from a purists perspective is that nature has given so many naturaly occuring morphs that no collector could ever possiblly keep them all, keeping all the morphs of one species like pumilio or tinctorius would be next to impossible in itself, let alone all the NATURALLY occuring morphs of all the species, which are so variable, and so beautiful naturally. In MY opinion the dart frogs are at their best as nature intended them, in the wild, boldly doing their bussiness, existing in a perfectly balanced ecological niche. When we maintain them in natural vivaria it is the goal of many to simulate the the rainforest as close to possible, many keeping things so pure as to having them as biotope specific as possible, using only the plant species that would be found with the frogs. For those hobbiests striving for this Ideal, hybrids/crosses wont fulfil this goal.

"If you simply like the idea of knowing you have a "natural" frog, then more power to you. After the "Frankenfrog" comment, I am curious what you would you call a naturally occuring cross that must exist where distinct morph habitats overlap??"

I am unaware of any place where distinct morphs cross over or interbreed in the wild. Sure you will find different species living together, but often these are from differnt genera, and so wont interbreed. using the example already suggested by Bgreen, of pumilio and auratus, same genus, yet completely incompatable breeding habits, so no chance of hybrids. Almost anywhere you find two species together they are either from different genera, or occupy different niches, areboreal, terrestrial etc, for examply reticulatus and ventrimaculatus in peru, both share many resemblances in body shape and appearance in many cases, however retics tend to be terrestrial, while the vents are arboreal, and even if they did bump into each their prefernce for egg laying sites, vents prefering the edges of small water resevoirs, while retics tend to hide them in leaves on the forest floor would likely prohibit a successful mating in the wild. In the wild "morphs" are almost always separated by natural bariers, such as mountains, rivers etc. Since they cant cross these barriers they likely evolve into different morphs. This is definetley the case for all the pumilio, granuliferus and auratus morphs I have observed in fairly extensive observation and time in Costa rica. The only place i can think of where more than one morph may occur and intermingle may be bastimentos island where the pumilio populations comes in a handful of colours. But bastimentos seems to be an exception, and one could argue that rather than many morphs on bastimentos there for whatever reason are natural variable. There may well be other examples, but none that i am aware of

we will lose many species and natural morphs in the coming years. It is sadly inevitable. So when that time comes for a species/morph to face extinction, I and many others will take some small ounce of comfort from the fact that we maintain in our vivariums specimens of a species, as close to the way nature intended as we possibly can. And in some small way this species will never be lost to us completely, even though the most important populations (the wild ones) are gone. Not an auratusxleucxazureus with a little tinc mixed in which likely shows few of the better characterists we appreciate each species for (I think melissa was getting at this earlier)

this hobby shouldnt be compared to snake keeping. Where in the world of snakes do you find any with the natural variance of dendrobatids. GTPs are among the most beautiful of snakes IMHO. Though there is some varaiton in populations as to sahes of greens, varying degress of yellow/ blues, there is nowhere near the extreme amounts of natural variation in dendrobatid morphs. So i guess this is the appeal to striving for more colours in these snakes, to catch up where nature left off? I prefer a normal oketee corn to all the creamsicles snows etc, but thats just me. The Pic marcial posted of his GTp is a nice looking snake, I dont think anyone will argue that. However for me it lacks the appeal of a true locality GTP.

Marcial says "If you somehow think that what we do in this hobby has anything to do with natural conservation, then I will argue that point to the bitter end."

you are more than likely corect in assuming that our frogs in captivity now will never benefit conservation, but for many of us the hobby extends much further than simply keeping caged animals. Many contribute to conservation efforts etc, in many cases because our love for these frogs equates to a love for the rainforest and thus instills a desire to preserve it. Simply by attending conferences/sales such as international amphibian days coming up in april we are supporting conservation, whether directly, or indirectly as proceeds from this show go to rainforest/amphibian conservation efforts. Further more, this hobby may soon be in a position to buy frogs produced in zoocriadero programs in peru, where all proceeds wil go directly to protecting the habitat of these dendrobatids in the wild. To me this has everything to do with natural conservation.

sorry for the long post, I rarely post, so maybe im entitled to climbing on a soapbox this time.

thanks for reading,
mark

Lol - Now see, you made me actually have to use some brainpower -took me a few minutes to look it up.

I had to look it up too, lol.
-----
Quality Captives

Read the archives and check frognet, it's been discussed over and over and over .... and I think you know that.

You say you're a newbie and then launch right into telling us we've got a holier than thou attitude? Hmmm, now there's a way to start a "discussion"!

You said "Flame away".

Hey bud, you asked for it, you got it.

Donn

I think you point is well taken, but there is something else underlying this issue. Less and less frogs are being imported and eventually there may be no more imports for various reasons (extinction, restrictions, etc...). The frogs we have may be the only frogs we get for a long while. If people hybridize and don't sell or somehow release to the public, then this isn't an issue, but if people hybridize and sell, then the market will be full of colorful "dart frogs" and not specific types of darts (alanis, opoyok, etc...). Many people, including myself, want to be able to have a specific type of frog from a specific region represented in their viv. I don't think hybridization will slide down the slippery slope to the point where we have glow in the dark frogs, but I want to be sure that when I purchase a frog it is naturally beautiful and represents a genetically traditional specimen. This is a personal preference though, so by all means breed away if it makes sense to you.

Have you even seen any hybrid dart frogs? The majority of them dont look good, and certainly not more beautiful than the originals. Most people who have hybrids often sell them as new species and claim to be worth thousands, when their value is next to nothing.

M.N

I honestly think you are missing the point. I agree with many of your points and I will not argue with you over them. All I can say is WHY? Why would you want to create a new morph? Money? Playing creator? What drives you to want to do it?

Most of the people I know who are into dart frogs are in it because they love the animals. They get started with a few, then their collection grows! And grows!!!! They look at their frogs as jewels. They appreciate the fact their New River Tincs are bossy, and your Patricias are flighty and hide. They like them for their beauty, and differences not their $ value. I still experience the feeling of a kid in a candy store when I go into my frog room. It is so cool to have these beautiful creatures in my home and to be able to share them with others.

Yes, these frogs will never be reintroduced to the wild, one reason might be, there will not be a place to release them to. Their natural habitat is disappearing at an alarming rate. Entire frog populations will disappear from one summer to the next. Ask any person who goes down to South America on a regular basis and they can confirm that. As the frogs along with their natural habitat disappear, people who own them want future generations to enjoy them as they were in nature. What is wrong with that?

I honestly think that the creation of a new morph has more to do with $ and playing god than concern regarding the animals. One thing you will find out, you will be run out of business really quick and shunned if you decide to create new morphs.

All I can do, is express my opinion with my voice and my wallet. Both vote NO to dart frog morphs!!!

Melissa
-----
Quality Captives

Agreed.

Isntead of asking people 'why not', ask yourself 'why' in the first place. Everyone against crossbreeding has given you a substantial amount of reasons, and you have given bull plop. Im only guessing to make pretty colors, and a cash, huh?

Frogs are not snakes, and should not be compared.

M.N

I think you have it backwards there, buddy. Everyone against it has given me their OPINION as to why it shouldn't be done, but what make your opinion any better than mine?

And yes, to make pretty colors...... is that wrong?

No one is going to prevent someone from crossing if they truly desire it. There is no law against it that I know of. It is still a free coountry. Just that you probably will not be able to sell them or get top dollar like snakes and lizards. Now, how much was that blizzard leopard gecko a few years ago?! Unreal, and the price has dropped considerably.

WM

call it egotistical, call it playing god, call it whatever you would like, but yes, I think that selective breeding can improve on nature (in snakes at least). Whether or not this can happen with frogs, I wouldn't have a clue... like I said, I am new to dart frogs. As far as being "driven out of business," that is not a concern of mine as I did not get into these frogs for the money. I have a solid reputation as a gtp breeder and would challenge you to find an unsatisfied customer... I stand behind my stuff.

I guess my whole point in starting this thread was to get a better idea of why people have such strong beliefs on this subject. Sorry for the off topic pic, but this is an example of what is possible with a designer mutt gtp.... a bit flashier than your standard green one, huh? Is it a freak? Yes. Would it survive in nature? Probably not. But it is a one of a kind animal that is incredible to behold. IF (and again I say IF because I do not know what is possible w/ frogs) you could get this type of result by crossing, and your animals were honestly represented, I just don't see the harm in it and the need for people to look down on it. I wonder if this avenue has even been explored in frogs... or if the negative vibes from the community have simply discouraged people from trying it....

I am including a picture of 2 frogs from our collection. A year or so we aquired 3 tinc x azureus crosses and have kept them in our possession since. They actually don't look that bad. The reason we have them, we do not want anyone to breed them and pass them off as a new morph.

-----
Quality Captives

This right here is all you needed to say:
"If mixing localities produces an unreal looking frog, I am all for it."

You have no true interest in the hobby or the wellbeing of these animals. You are only interested in what you might create.

Look on the internet for some pictures of crossed darts. Most do not due well, and the ones that do, do not breed beyond that. So if you are really interested in making mutants stick to snakes.

I'm sorry if I come across harsh, but you should read up on a hobby before you treat it like snakes or other reptiles.

Go read some frognet posts on the topic.
-----
Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

One reason, is I don't want frogs to fall in to the same pit as the snake hobby. I have kept herps for over 10 years and darts for about 3. I still have corn snakes to play with now, but I will never mix a tank were the darts don't mix in the wild and where they can interbreed. You can keep a pair of auratus and a pair of vittatus together (occur naturally together) and have no problems with them mixing. But did you notice they are a dendrobates and phyllobates mix? You could toss in a pumilio and still should have no mixing, (and these are together in the wild)

Then their is the mating behaviors, how do you know each local doesn't have their own little trigger to mate. Granted this will make it harder for 2 morphs to mix, but it happens. Try breeding red-eyed tree frogs together from different locals.

As another said, WHY? Most people that are going to mix frogs and try and breed, and THEN sell them as mixed/hybrid or whatever are in it for the money.

But, The BIGGEST problem I have with mixing is what I know one fairly good sized breed posted on frognet. He said he has mixed tincs together, say morph A and morph B. The sold the babies by what they looked like, some as mixed, some as morph A, and some as morph B. This is the problem I have.

Even if someone gets two morphs and doesn't plan on breeding them, but then they get eggs, what should they do? I say toss the eggs. You do that then I don't care that sounds great to me. But them some people will raise them. and then give them to friends or sell them as a mix or hybrid, but those people sometimes forget that info down the road. I know breeders that have seen it happen.

From my soap-box,
BGreen

You know...I think he has a point. I don't see the harm in crossbreeding....IF...the "hybrid" frogs never make it into the hobby for trade or sale. However, if that is not the intention...what's the problem? Some people just have a scientific or curious mind that just asks, "What if?" While some people take pride in having a distinct part of the rainforest in their living room, someone else might take pride in keeping something that they had a hand in creating. Now, that may be playing God....but are we not playing God when we pull eggs out of the tank to raise ourselves? Or quarantine a runt to give him a better chance of surviving? In the wild, God/Mother nature does not offer this helping hand.

I think there are many reasons to get into hobbies and none are better or more honorable than another. As with anything else, there are the purists, and then there are the more unconventional enthusiasts who choose to do things differently. Neither are right or wrong....only different. The only "wrong" I can see is causing pain or undue stress to the animals themselves.

All in my very humble opinion.
-----
Matt

I could not have said it better myself. This is a big hobby, and there is room for everyone.... all of my animals receive the best possible care and husbandry regardless of their genetic origins.

This same issue has basically divided the GTP community, and I just don't understand why.... as long as your animals receive proper care, to each his own!

np

While I have always been a "non-mixer," I've recently been thinking about the lack of a chance for biodiversity with our relatively small gene pool of captive bred frogs, especially since new wild caught frogs of the same morph are so difficult to obtain. Would there be some genetic, perhaps disease resistance advantages to morph crosses?-- not hybrids. As was pointed out, these are not hybrids, but crosses of the same species from different areas., often with somewhat different color patterns. It seems like polymorphism of the immune system would be advantageous. Some studies I've read indicate that mice will seek out mates that are unrelated to them and that the Major Histocompatibility Complex genes are a factor in this choice. (There is a pheremone/scent relationship with MHC.) While mice aren't frogs, by any means, all vertebrates have these genes. Not every study I read came to the conclusion that heterozygosity was an advantage in resisting disease organisms, but several did. None that I found cited any advantage to homozygosity from inbreeding in small populations and there are of course well known disadvantages in perpetuating undesireable or even lethal recessive traits. The experiments were carried out by studying several wild populations of mammals such as endangered wolves, different types of fish, arctic mammals, cattle, ferrel sheep, etc. I could find none that had been done on frogs, least of all dart frogs, however.

At any rate, it doesn't seem to me that the "Newbie Perspective" was offensive. It was a suggestion to make us think. While everyone seemed to take it as an attempt to create "designer frogs," or hybrids, which is not the way I read it, I think indeed, we tend to get a little dogmatic and opinionated without thinking about the question from different perspectives. I admit to having been one of the most narrow-minded about this question.

-----
Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
3 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
4 D. leukomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus pending

I think Patty's reference to a theory known as hybrid vigor (which does not necessarily relate only to true hybrids . . . by to genetic diversity causing increased immune or reproductive systems) is an interesting point. However, I would like to point out that in a hobby with so few people consistently producing particular species or morphs, cross-breeding actually threatens to reduce the gene pool and morphology rather than enhance it.

If future breeders begin down the winding road to creating new color morphs, hybrids, etc., then fewer percentages of hobbyists will maintain the original lines from nature. Therefore, there will be fewer distinct populations or "bloodlines" of naturally occurring species/morphs for future hobbyists to maintain healthy lines of the original species morphs.

Maybe this does not concern some, but it does concern me. If frog habitats are truly evaporating quickly, and if amphibians are really nature's canaries, there will come a day when some species/morphs only exist in captivity. Then, when scientists actually find that only one species/morph of dart frog produces an enzyme which has a derivative that cures Parkinsons (don't laugh, dendrotoxins have been used as precursers for serious pain relievers that have the power of morphine without the bad side effects), that enzyme might no longer exist because cross-breeding has effectively eliminated it from even the captive gene pool.

Is that far out there? Maybe. But it also pisses me off to think that people will be palming off cross-breeds as true species, impeding my ability to confidently obtain new bloodlines which I can confidently introduce into my breeding program. Maybe they won't do it intentionally, but it will happen. Anyone heard of the giant orange morph?

So, I guess I've said all that to say this. If you're going to cross, you're going to cross. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. However, my efforts to keep clean bloodlines does not pose a threat to your efforts to make "interesting" morphs. However, careless cross breeding (which is bound to happen) will inevitably pose some threat to my ability to keep pure bloodlines. If a dogmatic approach and hobby peer pressure reduces that threat, all the better in my opinion.

Anyway, I have to agree that all the crosses I have seen have been far from splendid (that is not to say that consistent line breeding,etc. wouldn't produce results otherwise). Okay, I'll step down from my soapbox. No flames intended, only my humble opinion, and some valid points.
-----
Homer W. Faucett III, esq.
Purveyor of Trivialities and Fine Nonsense

O.K. I'll bite.....

Here's the big problem with cross-breeding/hybridization, whatever you want to call it - from a long term serious hobbyist.

First, to reiterate Melissa - WHY?
Any color you are looking for is already represented in the hobby. Like orange? Get a galactanotus, or intermedius.
Like yellow? Gee... numerous tinc morphs come to mind, as well as vents, imitators, leucomelas, terribilis, bicolor
Green? Pumilio, imitators, terribilis, trivatatus, auratus
Purple or blue? Try azureus, auratus
Red? Galacs, tricolor, pumilio
Catching my drift here? There's no need to 'create' a new morph. The species are diverse enough as is. Why screw up a good thing?

Now, lets consider for a second that I actually respectfully agreed with you, but don't want any of your frankenfrogs in my collection. Can YOU guarantee that they won't find their way there? Sure, you may be an honest guy with good intentions. But what about Joe Blow that you give or sell your hybrid offspring to? Then who they sell to? Eventually, the fact that the frog is hybrid could easily be forgotten, or intentionally left out to make a sale by some unscrupulous vendor. Believe me when I say that we have our share of those in this hobby, but I won't give names.

In short... I respect your curiousity, but not your decision. Spend some time in the hobby before jumping in and making new frog morphs, and then if you do.......DON'T LET THEM OUT OF YOUR HOUSE TO ANYONE, for the sake of all the purists.

Everyone has made great points in this thread.

One of the areas which has been not been discussed much is the stress on the animals in a mixed breed tank. I will not lie and say no one does it. People do, and often successfully. But too often, you have frogs that get stressed and die. Their growth rates are slowed and often their temperaments are so different one frog can actually kill the other.

Snake breeders strive for quick growth and healthy snakes. They accomplish this by housing them by themselves until it is time to breed, feeding them frozen or stunned food, and striving for the optimum cage, humidity and surroundings for their snakes. The stress is intentionally limited. When snakes are housed in cages side by side, breeders will place cardboard or other items to block the view between cages to eliminate stress. Snakes will only be housed together for breeding, even if they are from two different locals. I do not think comparing the breeding of snakes to poison dark frogs is a good example.

Please excuse my over simplification of snake breeding. I am not one, nor do I care to breed them. I am not doubting your skills as a breeder. Like others have said, the crosses do not get me very excited. I appreciate the skill of the breeders but I prefer to see animals in captivity which have survived and evolved naturally instead of engineered.
-----
Quality Captives

What is wrong with dart frogs the way they are? It is hybridization of localities that will ruin the hobby for the rest of us in the future. If I have frogs, I want them to be as they were in nature. These are not animals that are going to exist forever, so why not preserve tham as they are? Why do people create these designer morphs??? one word: MONEY!!!!!! That is the only reason why these morphs exist in the first place. Though the idea of all those corn snake morphs make me nauseous, I am reluctantly accepting of because it will essentially always be possible to find a wild-type cornsnake in the United States. You damn hell assed sure won't be able to find some of these wild dart morphs in the next 3 or 4 years because the small isolated habitats will be cattle ranches. Trust me, after keeping dart frogs for another few weeks, that hybrid crap will be completely out of your head. It is just not worth it. Dart frogs are fine the way they are!!!!! Let's leave them that way!!! If dart frogs go the way of corn snakes and leopard geckos, I will eat my own shorts.

Let me start out by saying that I'm neutral on this issue. 99.5% of darts are being raised as a moneymaking business or personal enjoyment for their owners (guilty) not for conservation purposese. Anyone who thinks that some South American country is going to contact them asking for tincs or aratus or any other type of frog is deluding themselves. If they ever need animals to release in the wild, they're going to go through official sources like zoos or well known private collections, not someone who breeds azureus out of their spare bedroom.

Of course there is the potential for trouble in cross-hybridization in that people may buy the frogs thinking they're natural morphs. With careful record-keeping and only buying from established and reputable places that stand behind their product, people can avoid this. A lot of people only want a pretty frog. The 'mutts' I've seen still fulfull this requirement.

Also, there doesn't seem to be any harm to the frogs. There are many animals in the herp hobby that have distinctive localities, but they have been cross-bred to make new morphs as the picture illustrated. There are even cross-species morphs in certain snakes. Diamond Python X Jungle Carpet Pythons for example.

In short, while I'm not going to go breeding hybrids myself, and I'm not going to encourage people to do so, I don't really see that much harm in it. If they want to cross breed their frogs, more power to them.

Like the title says, this reminds me of this cocky neive guy months back in the frog forum who said he had a golaith frog and planned to breed it and make like $200,000 (he even did the math wrong, the whole plan was wrong).

This is one of the reasons I stop in here every once in a while any more. I wasnt going to post till i saw this statement:

"And yes, to make pretty colors...... is that wrong?" - Marcial

Yes it is! You sound like your in grade school, ohhhhhhhhhhh its pretty....... And you are wrong for want to play god an make 'pretty colors' out of a living animal (herp).

Melissa/Sarah Basically said it all. Im not going to say I have been in this for years, only about 3 months of actully having my frogs, but you want to proclaim all of us are high and mighty with our anti crossbreeding stances (for pretty colors!) while you have only the minumum of any experiance and want preach how crossbreeding is good to make pretty colors. I think its bunny time...

If i can quote you one more time. "Of course, this is all just my opinion and I am not trying to imply that it's better or worse than anyone elses."

aj
-----
Here is my new image hosting site! I have made it Bigger, Stronger, Faster!
kungfu28181: My god. You are insane. -Mon Jun 30 21:41:05

"And you are wrong for want to play god an make 'pretty colors' out of a living animal (herp)."

Really? Says who?

First of all, the idea that making pretty colors is "wrong" is your OPINION. I do not share you opinion. If I can improve on what nature has created by selective breeding, that is my perogative. Again, maybe some of you find it egotistical, playing god, or whatever... I like to have stuff that no one else has... stuff that I have a hand in making. That is what I like to get out of the hobby... and no, not for the money... no one is going to get rich selling $200 frogs after all of the time & labor it takes to breed them. Hell, very few people get rich in the herp "business" anywhere. I routinely sell baby gtps about the size of a No. 2 pencil for relatively big money ($1000), but I am still not getting rich. All of the profits go to better cages, new bloodlines, rodents, and upgrades to the herp room.... (like my new frogs ) is that a sin? My goal is to create something that you look at & say "WOW, what is that?" One thing that's for sure, is that my animals NEVER suffer. My herp room is always kept IMMACULATE, is filled with state-of-the-art equipment, and the animals are kept under optimum conditions. You cannot ask for much more than that in the pet world....

You are the one who is dillusional if you think putting a frog in a glass cage, feeding it a foreign diet dusted with vitamins and minerals, and rearing tadpoles in yogurt cups is, in any way, "natural!" That is a complete joke.

I never said I was an expert or "preached" that crossbreeding was good for frogs. If you will go back & read careully, you will see that several times I noted that I was a beginner & didn't even know if cross breeding frogs could produce results similar to the way it does in snakes. I am merely arguing the principle. So yes, YOU are high & mighty for looking down on me because I don't want to keep it "natural."

No, everyone here gave you FACTS not opinions. Do you really think someone is going to look down on you and say "WOW, Whats that?". Sorry to say, but that is hilarius. Bring a crossbreed to sell at an expo, i doubt anyone with half decent knowledge on dart frogs is going to buy anything. Except the little 10-11 year olds who will be your only customers.

If I can improve on what nature has created by selective breeding, that is my perogative.

What are you improving? You have not given any facts to your statement. Its funny how only the newbs are the only ones who ask this question.

I like to have stuff that no one else has... stuff that I have a hand in making.

Do you hear yourself. Id be embarrassed to say that, you sound like a child.

If you want to have pwetty colors, look at the post by eggfeederz, there is no need. All you want to be known as, is they guy with the "rare crossbreed or morph". No one is forcing you not to do anything. Were merely stating not to let it go public.

I never said I was an expert or "preached" that crossbreeding was good for frogs.

Alright, So what was the point of asking this? If you dont think its good for frogs, whats the reasoning for your thoughts? Please answer that.

Thanks,
M.N

No one has given me fact number one... nothing but OPINIONS... people just say not to do it to "keep the lines pure." Well, maybe I don't want to keep the lines pure. If someone created a spectacular, wild looking, man-made morph, people would want it. Trust me. There are tons of people in the herp hobby who want something that is different. In gtp's the designer animals are in much higher demand than locality pure specimens... where a nice, top of the line CB pure locality hatchling may sell for $500, a blue morph or high yellow will sell for $5000-$7000.... for a hatchling. My point is that there is a demand for different and spectacular specimens of any species.

"What are you improving?" - OPINION - show me the scientific back-up that natural morphs are prettier than crosses...

"Do you hear yourself. Id be embarrassed to say that, you sound like a child. " - another OPINION - maybe I think that you sound stupid for being so close minded.

"If you want to have pwetty colors, look at the post by eggfeederz, there is no need" - OPINION - who says there is no need? Can you prove that there is "no need"? No, you can't; therefore, it's yet another OPINION.

My "point" for starting this thread was to find out if there was any good reason why morph crossing has not been fully explored in dart frogs. I can sympathize with people reasoning that crosses might infiltrate the collection of a true morph keeper... that is a point well taken. However, if your response is that I "shouldn't play god, and should just be satisfied with what nature has given us," that is a big pile of you know what. Every one of us plays god everyday with captive animals. Don't be so close minded...

You stated earlier (near the "bull plop" post) that

"...I did not get into these frogs for the money."

But now you are arguing:

"...where a nice, top of the line CB pure locality hatchling may sell for $500, a blue morph or high yellow will sell for $5000-$7000.... for a hatchling. My point is that there is a demand for different and spectacular specimens of any species.

So what's you're motivation? Are you claiming to be in it for the hobby or the money? You definitely have distribution of "hybrid morphs" in mind if you are considering the market demand for such specimens. You seem to be struggling with your own internal contradictions. Once you figure out what you want, you let us know. Until then, keep your facts straight and maybe you'll make a better arguement for yourself.
-----
Randy

that statment was in response to the statement made by someone that crossed frogs would not be wanted by anyone. My point was only to show that there is in fact demad for things that are different. If crossing 2 tinc morphs yielded a glow in the dark frog (I'm exagerating, of course) I garauntee there would be a demand for them.

Your initial post was asked a simple question: why not use selective breeding to create novel looking frogs. This is a basic question, and I think a natural one. I work in the field of genetics, and I had the same thought when coming into this hobby. In my view, selective breeding is not playing God, it is just being human. If not for our ancestors domesticating animals through selective breeding, we may very well not be here now discussing such things globally over the internet.

Now the simple answer to your question, and the conclusion I have come to, is that the crossing of different darts yields underwhelming results. The spectacular phenotypes you would expect to get just don’t happen. There seems to be a great degree of dominance of a specific phenotype over another, so you end up with offspring that look much like only one of the parents. There is little actual hybridization of patterns and colours. As Mark Pepper stated in a earlier post, with the degree of natural variance, there is little need to produce hybrids. Many colours, shapes and behaviours are present within natural dart frog populations.

Cheers

Again, you have revealed your true intention, to create an unnatural frog morph for monetary gain. You speak of demand, why else would you mention DEMAND unless, of course, you intented to create a demand with sloppy breeding practices.
-----
Randy

Hey,

"What are you improving?" - OPINION - show me the scientific back-up that natural morphs are prettier than crosses...

May i ask how that is done? Show me the the "scientific backup" to show how crosses are prettier than naturals. No one can, thats based only behind what ones opinion is.

"What are you improving" is a question, not an opinion. Considering how "to make something prettier" is a laughable excuse (yes opinion), it sounds as if you dont care about the animal itself, but ONLY based on what color it is.

What would happen if the cross didnt satisfy you as you thought it would? May i ask what you would do then?

Thanks,
M.N

I think that last part is a very good question. I would hope those animals would NEVER make it onto the market. But, you would need to raise them to semi-adulthood or adulthood to determine if the 'colors' were right for you.
-----
Quality Captives

If I remember correctly, the guy with the Goliath frog was just a young kid who had purchased an African Bullfrog from a pet store that was sold to him as a Goliath, which everyone knew was impossible in the first place and his plans were unrealistic in any event. He simply wouldn't back down (or post a photo) and ended up saying he lost it because he put it on top of a lizard to take its picture and the lizard ate it. This isn't what Marciel is doing at all. Marciel has however, created one of the longest and further continuing threads on this forum, really goosed people up. I think that's good.
-----
Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
3 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
4 D. leukomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus pending

****Marciel has however, created one of the longest and further continuing threads on this forum, really goosed people up*****

Unfortunately, exactly what he set out to do.

Even after I posted my "stirring the pot" post, I managed to get sucked into the debate!?

Read his posts, he already knew the pros, cons and opinions. Just wants some attention.

You'd think that such an experienced herper would say who he is to give some credibility (and maybe sell a few crossbred/crossmorphed frogs!). Unfortunatly it's much easier to remain anonymous when you're just out to cause trouble.

Donn Edwards
Patuxent River MD

What I meant by the reference to the goliath frog thread was this:

Kid had (we know better) a goliath frog - this guy has darts

Kid very bluntly said he wanted to breed them for money - after a couple posts we found out this was this guys true intentions also (crossbreeding then selling, then probably destroying the ones that weren't 'pretty' enough)

Got every one in hissy fit - this guy has done the same

Also this guy is being kinda hypocritical (sp?). He keeps saying have an open mind, I know most of us aren't being open minded, but yet we say our reasons why this is bad and IMHO A lot of ours reasons are a lot better then his. And he wont change his stance, So who isn't being open minded here?

In a couple years if it was up to him we all would have a D. Tinctorius Skittles (the rainbow dart frog morph).

aj
-----
Here is my new image hosting site! I have made it Bigger, Stronger, Faster!
kungfu28181: My god. You are insane. -Mon Jun 30 21:41:05

I used to think that it is fine for others who want to cross breed their own frogs to do so... But then I came to think that there could be a lot of mislabeled cross-bred frogs that will get cross to a pure line....either by mistake or greed.

The original breeder might properly labeled the frogs that he produced as a cross... but what happen when somebody bought and bred them? What if the offsprings does not look alike with each other? maybe one offspring looks like 90% of the parent male and 10% of the female... the other might look like 70% of the parent female and 30% of the male???

It is possible that these will enter the market as runt and those who are not so honest with others will sell the closest resemblance to any of the parent as the same morph as the parent.

If you know mendelian trait (the simplest one), you should know that the f2 are the ones that will be the first to show variety of the combine genes...(from one that looks like the parent male to variety degree of the combination and to the parent female).. not the f1... and most likely it will occurs in someone else frogroom... not the original breeder.

Steven Budidharma

nt

Most of the other animals/hobby that create hybrids are to get a certain color or more intense coloration. I personally think with dart frogs, there are so many naturally occurring colorations and variety that I don't have to anything but enjoy what nature has to offer. If you want blue, azureus has some intense blue or if you want red, how about galactonotus or pumilio. My two cents

WM

I am not pro or con on this issue. I do keep a mixed tank (very successfully), but have no intentions of allowing any breeding. I really just wanted to through out this point however relevant or not:

Let’s see a show of hands as to how many people keep orchids in their tanks. And how many of you that keep those orchids only keep species plants, no hybrids? The point is this, conservation wise orchids set in the same situation as darts, probably a little worse off in the wild. But this has not stopped anybody from crossing them, and it doesn’t stop any of you from buying these “mutt” plants. Nobody is going to come up to you and ask that your plants or frogs be part of a restoration program. These frogs are “pets” anyway you put it. Their captive existence is solely to please us. I mean your not doing the frog any favors by keeping it in a little glass box. It is a selfish act for your own pleasure or monetary gain. If you don’t want a “mutt” then don’t buy it, but don’t condemn somebody for doing something that you yourself do, whether it be with the same group of organisms or not.

Two other quick things: 1) I see a lot of confusion in many post as to the distinction between morph and species. This has a lot to do with this issue and people should really clear up the taxonomic distinction. I am not sure on this point but from what I have seen these morphs and localities have no taxonomic recognition beyond the species level. This says a lot about how they are viewed by the scientific community, virtually making a morph in captivity equivalent to a plant cultivar (i.e. having little significance to any one other then the hobbyist). 2) I have seen evolution thrown into this argument as well. As far as Hardy-Weinberg is concerned, evolution stops at importation.

I think the initial post raised an interesting question, even if it was buried among statements that seemed designed to provoke controversy. The interesting question was not one about science, but about why so many in this hobby are uncomfortable with or outright opposed to crossbreeding.

I think part of answer rests not just with the scientific views of many pdf hobbyists, but with the type of people attracted to the frog and the hobby. Generalizations are always dangerous, but one needs only to watch this discussion group for some time to recognize that dart frog hobbyists tend to think about aesthetics, holistic environments, "beauty for its own sake," and other such qualities more than hobbyists of other herps.

More so than other groups, this forum spends time on subjects like orchids, moss, water placement, types of bromeliads, etc. Most snake hobbyists I know are quite content to have just the snake with some sand and a stick. For them, the snake speaks for itself. That is just fine for them. Dart froggers tend to go for the holistic approach and often want a tank that aesthetically pleasing to people who have no interest in herps. Likewise, they are interested in, not so much of what is different or novel, but what in what is beautiful. Thus, it is not surprising that the frogs are so often referred to as "jewels."

Given that dart froggers tend to hold these values, it is not surprising that so many oppose cross breeding. They are interested in re-creating, not creating. This difference in perspective might also explain why so many here consider crossbreeding "playing God," while you can see no difference between crossbreeding and raising in captivity.

I don't mean to suggest that one set of views is better than the other, or that they can't both be held by the same person. (I know of one guy who breeds various lizards in plain tanks, but keeps some non-breeding darts, just for the diversion, something pleasurable to look at.) Nor do I mean to downplay the scientific reasons for not crossbreediing. I just want to point out a possible reason why "so many" dart froggers oppose crossbreeding.

Okay, now I can be flamed.

Chris D.

n/p