Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Two bad things...don't know what to do. Here's the pattern of events today.

Came home from lunch today - he's fine and happy basking. Came home from work at 5. Messy shelf liner. Must've had the runs b/c there's mess all over the floor and smears on the glass, his tail and back feet.

I took everything out and soaked them. Gave him a couple of superworms for dealing with the situation!

After I put his shelf liner back in, I was working on trying to clean his tail off as he moved around the cage (bf was in the shower and he can be hard to handle by myself). Wasn't have much luck, so I grabbed his water bottle and spritzed his tail. 10 seconds later, he fell over to his side and (I'm pretty sure) had a seizure. It lasted about about 5 seconds. I freaked out - and got my boyfriend. We let him moved around the tank on his own - and he's acting normal again. Took him out to work on cleaning him up again. Then noticed what appears to be crusted blood in one nostril.

Anyone know what's going on with my baby? Suggestions? What could cause this to happen? Any help would be great. I'm pretty shook up.

Facts:
2 yr old male
40 breeder tank
shelf liner
collard greens/pellets daily
can o'crickets treats 2-3 times a week
occassional superworms
basking temps normal

he's never had any problems. bought him at 5 months.
-----
1.0 Bearded Dragon - Telamon
0.1 House Cat - St. Stephen

1 Saltwater Aquarium
1 Freshwater Aquarium

VET! NOW! Don't take chances. I just lost one of my boys. He was Fine for quite some time and then, bam, just like that He was gone. Had a Necropsy done on him, He had Intestinal Cancer. What I learned, Any signs like that require vet visit NOW!
-----
2.0.0 Iguanas, 1.4.0 Beardies, 0.2.1 Saharan/Nigerian Uromastyx, 1.1.1 Leos, 0.0.1 African Fat Tail, 1.0.0 Columbian Rainbow Boa, 0.0.1 Fla Garter Snake, 0.1.0 eastern garter, 0.0.1 Corn Snake, 0.0.3 Fire Belly Toads, 1.0.0 Eastern Painted Turtle, 0.0.1 African Sideneck, 1.1.1 Horses {Baby next May!!!}, 2.2.0 cats, 0.1.0 dog, and I'm done for now.....

HHmm I read below you had a MVB for them and had replaced it a few months back. Do you still supplement with cal and d3? Are you sure he didn't bang his face in the bath or have any injury? I guess you can't say for sure as you where not home earlier. Maybe all that poop smeared like that was from an earlier seizure too... I only experienced seizures a few years back at the rescue and it was due to a vitamin and calcium deficiency, and once that was fixed the animals where fine. Other then that I can't think of anything that can come on fast like that. I'm sorry I would make an appointment at the vets if you still provide the supplements regularly, and he's seizing still to find out what is causing it.
-----
Mystical Dragons webshots pictures
Mystical-Dragons Website

I've used MVB since I bought him. The one now is only about 2 months old. 2x a week I sprinkle veggie dust on his greens. When his gets the canned crix I dust them with the Rep-Cal Calcium and Vit. D powder.

I just called the emergency room and talked to a reptile dr. She took all of his info, every detail and then said she didn't know just from talking what could cause it. She said if I brought him in tonight, that they could draw blood, but testing wouldn't be done until the morning. She said they could also do a fecal. But, again, no testing until the a.m. So, she said it depends on my comfort level whether I want to bring him in tonight or tomorrow.

She also's obviously never heard of the shelf liner for a substrate. She mentioned removing it for the night and putting down newspaper, since it's the only change in his tank recently.

He's acting fine now, running around like he does when he wants to roam. And his breathing is normal.

Not sure what to do. If they can't treat him tonight, I don't want to stress him out more by getting him in the cold and into the hospital.

ahhhh.........
-----
1.0 Bearded Dragon - Telamon
0.1 House Cat - St. Stephen

1 Saltwater Aquarium
1 Freshwater Aquarium

I hope that it is not shelfliner cause I use it to.Is there anything in shelfliner that could make a beardie sick?

I don't know what in it could possibly cause any problems. I washed it when I got it, and have kept up with spot cleans. I think she just asked so much about it b/c she hadn't heard of using it and it's the only change in his cage. ?? I really didn't get anything out of talking to her.
-----
1.0 Bearded Dragon - Telamon
0.1 House Cat - St. Stephen

1 Saltwater Aquarium
1 Freshwater Aquarium

>>I hope that it is not shelfliner cause I use it to.Is there anything in shelfliner that could make a beardie sick?

I seriously doubt it is the shelf liner. I use it on all my adults and babies and not one problem. Like other's have said, it could very well be something that happened months or even a year ago and is just now showing.

I use a Simple green / listerine / water solution to keep my cages clean.
-----
Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

A couple shots in the dark.....

1. Is the shelfff liner a bright color? I've heard of certain colors setting off seizures in humans.

2. Nothing needed to necessarily happen recently either,,, there is a possibility that he banged his head at a very young age and has some scar tissue as a result and he's at growth point where the scar affected the electrical charges in the brain. A seizure is basically a "short-circuit" in the brain. I've personally seen this happen to dogs.

Good Luck -

1. It's a light tan color with palm trees. See pic below.

2. I don't really know any history from the first 5 mo. of his life. Could it have been a stroke or something? I don't really know. He just flopped on one side, froze up in his arms and legs and shook slightly. It wasn't like when my dog had seizures when I was little (was hit by lightening).

-----
1.0 Bearded Dragon - Telamon
0.1 House Cat - St. Stephen

1 Saltwater Aquarium
1 Freshwater Aquarium

I use the same exact one, same kind of liner for months In Kami's cage has that design and color. Lots of things can cause a seizure it's really a shot in the dark, and many times in humans and animals it is never diagnosed as to why or what is causing them. I would deffinatly make an appointment for a blood panel and check vitamin levels. Sorry, but this is one of those things that is a symptom of maybe something that happened today or even as a baby. Are they staffed with vets at night , and if he did seize again what could they do for him? I'm sorry this is so so vague but I would for sure take him in for the blood panel in the morning.
-----
Mystical Dragons webshots pictures
Mystical-Dragons Website

No, thank you for your responses. I going to take him in tomorrow. She said they wouldn't have an appt open until afternoon, but I'll call back first thing in the a.m. and schedule one.

She is a doctor that deals with reptiles, but that's all I know. She was very vague also. She said they could have a specialist come in tomorrow for my appt. All they can do tonight is take blood and fecal for testing in the morning and keep him overnight. I didn't get the feeling they could do much if it were to happen again, which is why I think I'll just wait and sit with him tonight.

Even if they can't find a cause, I'll at least be able to make sure everything else is in check.

Is it a possibility that even though I give him all of his supplements that maybe something's wrong with him that prevents his body from absorbing what he needs?
-----
1.0 Bearded Dragon - Telamon
0.1 House Cat - St. Stephen

1 Saltwater Aquarium
1 Freshwater Aquarium

Doesn't look like the color of the liner could have been a factor....

since he was in the tank and they are more sensitive to smells that maybe he had a reaction to his newly cleaned liner.

I scrubbed it with Dial and warm water, rinsed twice. Lightly sprayed a 10% bleach solution on the problem spots and scrubbed. Rinsed with hot water. Dial twice more, hot water, and dried with my hair dryer.

Is there a chance he caught a wiff of something we can't smell that would've set off such a rxn?
-----
1.0 Bearded Dragon - Telamon
0.1 House Cat - St. Stephen

1 Saltwater Aquarium
1 Freshwater Aquarium

Sure, it could be. Take it out for the night get the panel in the afternoon just to check there as well. I have used the same cleaners in the past, but never both used at the same time or in a row. I always air dried and put in a dry sheet that day cause they take a long time to dry. That's the only difference there with cleaning that we did. I've used the same cleaners for a year now and never had troubles at all, but after a strong cleaner I soaked them rinsed them, and hung them to dry over night. Possible it was not rinsed well enough and the quick dry and then spray after to wash his feet caused it to smell again. I would take it out tonight as he sleeps for sure. Get his blood checked by the vet. If nothing is found in the blood I would always replace with a fresh piece that has been air dried, and maybe the mixture of smells could have caused this. I really don't know, but I would advise to do this to be on the safe side. It's a good a guess as anything else. Take it out and spray the spot again and see if you can smaell the cleaners?
-----
Mystical Dragons webshots pictures
Mystical-Dragons Website

Ammonia
An Ammonia solution (3.5 ounces per gallon of water) is frequently used as a disinfectant. Most people are not aware of the fact that their household dishwashing soaps and other cleaners may contain ammonia.

Caution should always be taken to never mix ammonia and chlorine bleach as it will produce a toxic chlorine gas.

Chlorine
Chlorine bleach solution (5% solution 4-6 ounces per gallon of water,) is frequently used as a disinfectant. It is cheap, and it is effective. It is also dangerous when used in closed spaces due to the toxic fumes
-----
Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

use that on my tile around shower, just spritz lightly , I feel like I'm gonna pass out if I don't get out of the bathroom quick enough.

I know you washed and dried it but, maybe he picked up some fumes anyway, or maybe the solution goes into the liner, and then when heated, creates a toxic gas kinda sitiation.

Sure hope hes fine, real soon what ever happened.

Eve

within ten minutes of the incident, he was back to normal. i kept a close eye on him until he went to sleep and then throughout the night.

this morning i awoke to an alert and hungry boy!

i am purchasing extra liner today so that i have backups in the future to ensure this does not happen again.

still going to have some tests run just in case. but i'm pretty sure the cleaning steps were the problem; they are just more sensitive that we are.
-----
1.0 Bearded Dragon - Telamon
0.1 House Cat - St. Stephen

1 Saltwater Aquarium
1 Freshwater Aquarium

Really don't need to go through all those steps to clean the shelf liner. Just spot clean using a paper towel to pick up the mess, a wet cloth or papertowel with a mild antibactia soap on the spot then wipe the spot with a clean dry paper towel. Completely wash the liner once a month in the 1:10 part bleach to water and air dry completely should do the trick. Having two shelf liners is best, so you can just switch the old with the new and clean the dirty one. A month air drying will be more than enough to ensure no more lingering traces of chemicals.

Normally, spot-cleaning is what I do everyday. However, when I came home yesterday, there was such a mess all over that spot-cleaning would not have sufficiently cleaned it up. I also had to scrub his basking ledge and the sides of the tank where his tail swiped even more mess.

Yesterday was a rare occassion for excessive mess!
-----
1.0 Bearded Dragon - Telamon
0.1 House Cat - St. Stephen

1 Saltwater Aquarium
1 Freshwater Aquarium

I think your right on the money Ldypayn. I had never quick dried before with a blow dryer, and if you soak the duck liner shelf liners it takes quite a while before it is dry, and I have always replaced with a fresh dry piece when it was time to switch out the dirty liner for a newer one. This would give at least two weeks for the disinfected liner to air out, and I believe the quick drying and heat then replacing soon after this just made any fumes possibly left over to maybe heat to a gas state that would go unnoticed, and even as a non smelling toxic. We used the same soaps, 1 as a daily spot cleaner , and one to disinfect the old when new one were needed to be replaced, but our cleaning process was different. I recommend air drying on my site, and if this has to be done a new piece is needed to be put into the tank that day, and the washed one might not be reintroduced after a long time of air drying, and then being hung on a hanger till the new replaced one was dirty, and in need for disinfecting. They take forever to dry. I tried to caution this as much as I could on my site or any info I gave on the forum on cleaning. I just feel any powerful disinfection wash could be dangerous and when I posted the cleaning message I had no idea a quick drying hair dryer was being used, and a new piece was not being switched in to let the disinfected one air out as they take forever to air dry and I'm sure it would have dissipated from them over time. I still feel my website needs an update explaining those steps, and the cautions involved with using such a strong agent for disinfecting. Possible even leaving out the bleaching step I take to disinfect the liners here. I’ve heard many other safer routes through emails and posts on this forum, and will recommend them as safer ways when I mention I use bleach here as I did last week when this question arose. I tried to stress this as much as possible every time I was asked how to clean, but maybe I should be more cautious and update my web site as well. Many people who started recommending how to clean come up with some new ones that might be safer, but even the ones containing alcohol in high amounts could in fact be dangerous as well if not done properly and aired out before or mixed. I will speak to many beardie owners I would trust with my own dragons to maybe get safer ideas to disinfecting them and putting them on my website this week. I off course feel bad when any dragon gets sick, but felt bad it happened on a product I had recommended even if I stated the dangers and safer routes to go about cleaning in any posts or emails I received on the subject. I do wish the best to mismoliz this afternoon at her vets. As it might not even have been this that caused the seizure as many other things could cause these as we know, but is was good enough for me to take a second look.
-----
Mystical Dragons webshots pictures
Mystical-Dragons Website

No sad faces! Yes, I have a MVB and dust regularly with calcium and D3 powder in addition to veggie supplements.

He's doing better today.
-----
1.0 Bearded Dragon - Telamon
0.1 House Cat - St. Stephen

1 Saltwater Aquarium
1 Freshwater Aquarium

-----
Stacey