Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i realize this is probably a difficult question, but here goes. my girlfriend's parents live nextdoor and they raise chickens in the backyard. last year, a large Black Ratsnake entered the chicken coop and my girlfriend's sister shot the snake. just last weekend the same thing happened and my girlfriend's father did the killing. as is usually my luck, both of these incidents happened just before i got home. i can understand wanting to protect the chickens, but what do you tell someone in a situation like this, if anything? i know some people fear snakes, but does that justify killing them? i came home today and found a large, live Black Ratsnake in a container on my porch. i asked my girlfriend about it and she said her cousin caught it in the driveway and he said i should take it to another place if i didn't want it killed. i can handle that, but what about when i'm not around and the snakes are at the mercy of a shotgun?? thanks for any advice.

greg

Sorry you had to deal with this. I can't offer a lot of advice as how to best educate them as I've had my own struggles with this. I'm assuming the coop can't be modified so that it is snake proof? I've seen coops for exotic fowl that were snake proof but most people don't want to provide that for chickens.

Regardless, I can tell you that the relocation data available for snakes is not good. In a nutshell, relocated snakes tend to do poorly and wander restlessly.

I think most of these studies were done on Rattlesnakes but they would certainly make me think twice about relocating any snake to a new area.

I know of some wildlife-rescue people who now refuse to relocate snakes due to this. They'll remove them from an area where they are exposed to danger but won't release them.

I'd rather see this snake live out it's life in captivity than wander around a new location all stressed out until it dies.

thanks. i was going to say i do know a place i could take him where he would be out of danger and he would have plenty of mice. would this be ok?

What?!!? Wait...pause...hold on!! LOL! Where is this data showing that recolated snakes didn't do so well? How did they track the snake after release? How long did they observe? I'd like to see this data please. I'm doctoring a native gopher snake with the sole intention of releasing it this fall or next spring if it needs more time but if what you are saying is correct, I'd be doctoring a snake just to condemn it to death. That would be ugly.

Back to saving the snakes, since one was brought to your porch, it sounds like you've done a lot of good already. I would just keep doing what you are doing; keep talking to them and offering to pick up the snake yourself. I would most definitely remind them that snakes aren't pests, they are environmentally sound pest control! LOL!

I know that the girl (Kristen Wiley, maybe, I'm not positive) who works at the Kentucky Reptile Zoo has been doing research on relocating snakes.

She did a presentation a little while ago at my local herp society. She has said that relocating snakes more than 2 miles away from their home is too far. She didn't say, however, what was the minimum you should try to move them, just that 2 miles was definitely too far. She isn't done with her research, but I'm sure that she would be happy to give you some details about what she has found so far.

The way she has done this is by capturing snakes and fitting them with radio transmitters before releasing them.

Here's a link to their site if you would like to contact her: (If I got her name wrong, her picture is at least on the website. If you go to the Education Link on their page, she is the girl at the bottom of the page, holding what looks like a cornsnake.)
Kentucky Reptile Zoo

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alstiver@hotmail.com

1.0 '01 hypo snow
0.1 '02 ghost (pastel)
1.1 '02 bloodred

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alstiver@hotmail.com

1.0 '01 hypo snow cornsnake
0.1 '02 ghost (pastel) cornsnake
1.1 '02 bloodred cornsnakes
0.0.18 '03 American toads

I think there are several studies, actually. You should read them yourself rather than trust my recollection of somebody else's interpretation (I did not read them myself).

Also, you might check your local and state laws. Releasing the Gopher snake, even if into the same spot, may be illegal.

I litterally bought this snake from our local animal shelter. One of the animal control officers calls me when he gets snakes in because he knows they are better off with me than there where everyone is afraid of them and doesn't know a thing about reptiles.

The driver who picked this particular one up wrote him is as a "python" and the animal control officer didn't know what he was. He's a native Ca Baja Gopher/common Bull snake. LOL! Anyway, he's got some flesh wounds that I'm trying to help him with and once he's thoroughly healed and eating well, I didn't plan on keeping him. The animal control officer approved my plan to release him this fall, or next spring.

Basically...what I'm trying to say is...If it's not a dog, they're not so good. If I find information to support whatever decision I make, I am sure I can find the backing to go around the rules, if necessary. After all, they did sell me a native species.

I'd worry about releasing it into the wild for the sole fact that it may be carrying non-native pathogens that it picked up in an animal shelter.

Also, like Chris has said, there are at least 3 published articles that indicate that snake relocation can be hazardous. One focuses on timber rattlesnakes, another on hognoses, and a third on western diamondbacks. I can give you the citations for the first two, and maybe the third (if I can find it) if you'd like (e-mail me).

Basically, all three suggest that these species have restricted home ranges that they do not wander out of readily. When you move them out of that range, most individuals wander about and die from exposure or predation. They feed, but they do not seek shelter properly.

Now, nobody has published any relocation studies on any Pituophis, however, this does not mean relocation is a good idea. My advice would be to rehab this gopher as best you can, then either keep it or give/donate it to a school science class or some youngster to help their interest in herps.

Van

Oooh! I like the idea about giving it to a school or youngster. This guy is a sweety...tame as can be.

Thanks!

One problem with relocated gopher tortoises here in Florida is with upper respiratory tract disease. Different populations are carriers of different strains or species of bacteria that cause the disease, and when populations are unnaturally mixed, the tortoises don't have any built up resistance to the opposite population's strain, which results in the infected tortoises dying from the disease. A vet I know is doing research on this disease. I think I recall seeing something that relocated desert tortoises out west are experiencing similar problems, but I would have to look that up again to be sure.

Though this example is not a snake, this illustrates that the relocation of animals can have serious detrimental effects, not only to the animal being relocated, but also to the entire population it comes in contact with in its new surroundings.

Adam Black

Howdy I'm a board member of the Las Cruces Reptile Rescue where we are cuurrently doing a study on relocating rattlers.......and there is VERY LITTLE studies on relocation a lot of this I belove is myth but hopefully in a year or so the LCRR will have some data to tell us what relocation really does.....
Las Crucecs Reptile Rescue-Las Cruces, New Mexico

In a previous post I suggested one should go out and "read" the studies for themselves, perhaps suggesting that they had been published in a peer-reviewed journal.

There have actually been a lot of studies done on this but in many cases they have not been published but rather presented in talk or poster format at meetings, etc.

The lack of their being published does not trivialize the work. A paper limited to snake relocation does not fit the goals or philosophy of many journals. Or perhaps a researcher simply is not ready to publish that data but wants to share some initial results at a meeting at to recieve feedback from his or her colleagues.

Also, some journals do not show up when doing a subject search. Giving that lack of interest in these types of articles I would imagine the studies that have been published have ended up in lower-tier journals.

Lastly, relocation data can often be part of a larger, more general data set. As such, there can be useful date re. relocation but the paper is not on that subject per se.

What I'm getting at is that the useful date about relocation can be difficult to find. It is out there, however.

So I think it is a bit of a disservice to call these ideas "a myth" just because the studies are difficult to find.

I live in western NC and years ago had a yearling banded California king escape her enclosure. I put out painter's tape and traps to no avail. After a few months I assumed she died in my house. I had long forgotten about her when two or three years later I saw her in my backyard and caught her. She was much larger, more irritable (go figure), and had a few scars; but was very fat and healthy. I know it COULD have been someone else's recently escaped pet, but I seriously doubt it. The pattern was just like I remembered and we had a streak of mild winters.
The head of our local herp society had the same thing happen with an amelanistic corn, only it was just a year later and was rescued while being attacked by a neighborhood cat. Both these occurances happened with c/b snakes that neither native or accustomed to our harsh climates. I also brought an eastern king to my uncle's barn some 200 miles away as a kid and we saw it every summer- granted, it was within it's range and released in a barn full of habitat and mice. But in my experience relocated snakes in the right environment certainly have a chance, at least.

I wonder if scientist saying that relocated snakes don't do well consider their intrusive methods for tracking might contribute to them being stressed and dying. They inject tracking devices and then recapture many times to verify the snakes health and position this very activity may be the problem not the relocation. Just something to think about. Buddy.

Studies of this nature give us useful information at best. IMHO. It should not be construed as law. Studies, too often, fall short because of too small sample quantity, timeframe, insufficient sampling plan, etc. This isn't necessarily the case for all studies by any means. A good portion of these studies is funded by agencies for the purpose of making laws and regulations governing a certain species or group. It is illegal to release any native or nonnative reptile or amphibian in California. It is technically illegal to pick a snake up on one side of the road and let it go on the other side. When discussing releasing, breeding, possessing, or any of the issues related to reptiles and amphibians it is best to start first with what agency or who governs the issues associated with them in your state. We don't always agree with the law or regulation, but that isn't an excuse to disobey them and penalties can be stiff. I wouldn't think (I may be wrong) that an animal control officer can give a private citizen authority over releasing or not releasing a reptile. The California Department of Fish and Game is the governing agency over all native and nonative reptiles and amphibians in the state. Federally protected and/or endangered species laws and regulations will override the Fish and Game on those issues. I would probably start there.

I've been searching through the CA regulations...I didn't see anything saying that natives couldn't be rehabilitated and released. However, I did find that all that was needed to take reptiles out of nature is a mere fishing license, but it was illegal to sell it. It didn't say you couldn't keep a native, which I always thought was illegal.

It seems like a load of you-know-what that you can pick up a reptile with a "fishing license" but not be able to put it down, or sell it...I thought the purpose of making rules governing native species was to protect our environment. But, this set up allows people to ship snakes out of the state for free so the other states could sell them. This bothers me. Unfortunately there aren't any public F and G meetings locally any time soon...so I'll just have to vent my irritations here. LOL!

Here's where I found the regulations, if anyone is interested in checking it out: http://www.dfg.ca.gov/fg_comm/fishregs.html

I didn't meant to imply that the animal control officer could give me the authority...I just meant that since he sold it to me illegally, I'm sure a blind-eye would be turned in my direction.

Regulations for Native Reptiles and Amophibians published by State of California -

The Resources Agency
Department of Fish and Game
License and Revenue Branch
3211 S. Street
Sacramento, CA 95816

I don't like that the Title 14 Fish and Game regualtions is vague in the regualtions listed for Reptiles and Amphibians.

In the regulations that is published it states under General Provisions relating to Native Reptiles and Amphibians paragraph (d) "Reptiles or amphibians which have been in captivity, including wild-caught and captively-bred individuals or offspring, shall not be released into the wild."

I recommend for everyone in California who has reptiles or collects them including amphibians to get a copy of these regulations by writing and requesting one. There are protected lists, limits for possession, permit requirements, etc.

On your other point: If you are 16 years old or older, you must have a valid California Fishing License to collect reptiles and amphibians. There are collection and possessions limits that apply. Some animals are protected. There are counties and areas that you cannot collect reptiles. Once in a while I see someone post of this neat snake that collected in such and such location. I try tp send them an email saying, be careful what you post becasue it is illegal to collect that snake in that area.

I agree there are some flaws in the current regulations. You are correct, I can donate a reptile or amphibian to someone in another state. Do you realize in the regualtions if you have offspring from a wild/caught that you have 45 days to donate them. You are not allowed to keep them unless you have a California Native Reptile and Amohibian Prepagation Permit. It sort of implies you have to kill them after 45 days. My partner, Del Alspaw, currently has one. In fact, he's real good at knowing the regualtions and how to work with them.

Sorry I took your point on the Animal Control Officer wrong. I'll stand corrected.

If you have any more questions, I'd be glad to answer where I can. Thanks and Good luck.

>>I've been searching through the CA regulations...I didn't see anything saying that natives couldn't be rehabilitated and released. However, I did find that all that was needed to take reptiles out of nature is a mere fishing license, but it was illegal to sell it. It didn't say you couldn't keep a native, which I always thought was illegal.
>>
>>It seems like a load of you-know-what that you can pick up a reptile with a "fishing license" but not be able to put it down, or sell it...I thought the purpose of making rules governing native species was to protect our environment. But, this set up allows people to ship snakes out of the state for free so the other states could sell them. This bothers me. Unfortunately there aren't any public F and G meetings locally any time soon...so I'll just have to vent my irritations here. LOL!
>>
>>Here's where I found the regulations, if anyone is interested in checking it out: http://www.dfg.ca.gov/fg_comm/fishregs.html
>>
>>I didn't meant to imply that the animal control officer could give me the authority...I just meant that since he sold it to me illegally, I'm sure a blind-eye would be turned in my direction.

Thank you for that address and info! It helps tremendously! I saved it in notepad and I will be sending a letter off.

> You are not allowed to keep them unless you have a
> California Native Reptile and Amohibian Prepagation
> Permit. It sort of implies you have to kill them after
> 45 days. My partner, Del Alspaw, currently has one. In
> fact, he's real good at knowing the regualtions and how
> to work with them.

Oh no! That's a problem I hadn't thought of. How does one acquire this permit?

> Sorry I took your point on the Animal Control Officer
> wrong. I'll stand corrected.

It was my fault really because I worded it so poorly. I went back and read what I said just now and it really did look the way you took it.

> If you have any more questions, I'd be glad to answer
> where I can. Thanks and Good luck.

Thank you!! I really appreciate it!

I wouldn't really consider the tracking methods to be so invasive as to kill the snakes. Many tracking/home range studies have been conducted using surgically implanted transmitters. The snakes rarely, if ever, die from the stress of implantation. Most of these studies run for years on the same animals, even with transmitter replacement every year or so. They don't lose weight from the stress, and they seem to find suitable hibernacula/shelter easily enough.

Van

At least one of the relocation studies (the hognose one I think) used un-relocated animals as controls. Both relocated and unrelocated were subjected to the same surgery and tracking procedures.

Van

Excellent posts on this subject, Van.

With the Crotalus studies there are so many other mark/recapture and radio-telemetry studies that the controls are already available for citation - often by the same researchers conducting the relocation studies.

I was not aware of the Hognose study, but it makes sense that controls would be necessary for that species given the relative lack of supporting studies available.

The bad thing is the black rats (aka chicken snakes) would be more than happy to eat any chicken or egg that it can fit in its mouth. So the only way to make them stop coming in the chicken coop is to snake-proof it. Usually they hang around human habitation to eat rodents, but in this case they're probably in it for the birds. They're a really hardy snake, though, and at any rate its better to release them than have them shot in the head.

1.)Offer to feed your girlfriend and her family if they will go pic it up for you, and then put a big pizza on the counter top.

2.)Sit back with shotgun

3.)When the "lazy bums" decide that eating the pizza is easier then going to get food from town, shoot them in the head.

Ok, don't take this for real, but this is a good way to explain things. These snakes are going for the "easy meal". If anyone is to be punished, it should be the one who put the meal within' the snakes reach. lol

A funny one too. I thought I was going to get to shoot someone. LOL As several of the posters on this thread have seen, the person or persons with the chicken coup have to keep killing black rat snakes. Until they snake proof (I don't know why that's not being done) this chicken coup, black rat snakes and other animals or creatures will be a continuing problem for them. What would they do if a Federally protected or endangered species started getting into or raiding their chickens? If it was someone I knew or it bothered me, I might sitdown with them and see what can be done to benefit both sides. Help them snake proof the chcikens, etc.?

There is a product called snake away used mostly to keem hot's out of peoples yards but we've discovered that it seams to work on most snakes..........when I find the web site that you can order it from I'll post the link for you.......all you do is run it around the yard in a line like the chalk lines on a baseball field........we use it here in New Mexico......the Las Cruces Reptile Rescue has a program where we will do this for the familys here for a small fee and the stuff is only like 20-30 bucks.........Hope this helps..........Cyndi
Las Cruces Reptile Rescue-Las Cruces, New Mexico

http://tongs.com/shop/index.php?GrID=71
thats the direct link and if that dosent work www.tongs.com is the site that has the stuff look on the left hand side and there is a list of stuff in a yellow box w/ red writing and the Snake-A-Way is towards the bottom..........good luck
Las Crucese Reptile Rescue-Las Crucees, New Mexico

and taking the time to get the link Cyndi. I'll go take a look.

>>There is a product called snake away used mostly to keem hot's out of peoples yards but we've discovered that it seams to work on most snakes..........when I find the web site that you can order it from I'll post the link for you.......all you do is run it around the yard in a line like the chalk lines on a baseball field........we use it here in New Mexico......the Las Cruces Reptile Rescue has a program where we will do this for the familys here for a small fee and the stuff is only like 20-30 bucks.........Hope this helps..........Cyndi
>>Las Cruces Reptile Rescue-Las Cruces, New Mexico

I live in N.C.,, and there are alot of them here, i even have one that i keep thats about 7ft,, anyways if u go to lowes or homedepot,, or any plave that has pesticides,, they have a product calledd snake away,,mainly it has the same chemical as moth balls, and its supposed to keep em away,, hope this helps.
michael

thanks! i'll check it out.