Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Okay, I notice quite a few trends with reptile people, so I figured why not discuss a couple.

First off, how does the number of animals kept represent the knowledge of the keeper? Examples by first impression-A)You run into a hobbyist at a petstore of all places, and he's buying rodents(from a petstore!!!) to feed his snakes. You ask how many he owns and he says 5. Do you assume he's a beginner? I mean he only has 5 snakes.

B)You meet someone at a local herp club meeting who says they own over 100 snakes, a lot of high end animals, some costing over 6,000 a pair. Do you assume he's knowledgeable? I mean he has over 100 snakes.

Very possible realities as I see it-
A)This guy can afford rats at a petshop, he only has to feed 5 animals, he has kept snakes since he was a kid(he's now, say 35) and he has only 5 snakes, but they produce annually, and he makes more than enough off his offspring to cover all costs of his 5 snakes PLUS a little extra to spend on himself.

B)Some guy figured snakes were easy money makers, got a second mortgage on his house, is in over his head, and in reality only knows what he is able to repeat from some book he read(or something he overheard). Has never gotten his animals to produce, or even raised an animal to an adult for that matter.

I said a couple-LOL, so here's one more(I'm not THAT bored)
You come to the kingsnake forums and continually see someone post pictures. You have never seen them reply to an in depth question of any sort, but they have some nice animals judging by their pics. Someone asks you if you'd buy an animal from them. Would you recommend them because you know their name from the forum, and have seen nice pictures, nothing else?

Another person on the forums NEVER posts a picture, rarely posts at all, but when he/she does, there info is very accurate and helpful. But...you've never seen any of their animals, would you recommend them?

Okay, this one is just a personal complaint totally geared toward people that come on here once or twice, ask a question that is repeated in every reptile book ever written and complain that no one answers them. Then someone takes time to answer their question, and you NEVER see them respond back with as much as a Thank You, to the person. Just observe sometime how many questions are answered and the person asking the question never takes the time to show any gratitude to the person. But they're quick to complain when someone doesn't!

In case anyone wonders where I came up with the first scenario questions, it stems from a disagreement in the ball python forum I read which turned into a little p#$Sing contest between the two people of...."I have twice as many snakes as you". I personally don't think that means squat! So, just wondering how you all felt on the subject. The only thing geared specifically toward anyone was the complaining about not being answered, so I hope nobody assumes I am thinking of them when I wrote this. I wasn't. Take care!

Paul

You have way to much time on your hands!You should get some more reptiles that would keep you busy.I think your questions were Half-Baked,and not funny like the movie.It's not how many snakes you have or have had, or were you buy your rodents.You just sound immature,like a 17 yr old girl with braces.I have kept snakes since I was five yrs old and have had too many to count,and now guess how many I have,5.Having a hundred snakes is foolish, a person could not possibly take care of a collection that big and actually give every animal the attention it deserves.And as for rodents,WHY does it matter were you get them from, maybe someone ran out of his ordered ones and had to get some back-ups.I have 5 snakes and just ordered 100 rats from rodentpro, Does that make me a snake expert?Noooo.In conclusion I would say that it's not the price that you spend on your animals or were you get their food but more about how you care for your animals.Can you clean twice a week and feed once a week while still watching for parasites,R.I.,regurges,and so forth.

Thanks and good night, JUSTICE REPTILES

Did you read this with eyes wide shut...like the movie, but seems to be the reality with your response. You pretty much tried to attack me yet proving my point at the same time. Nobody attacked you, so back off, and re-read the post a little slower-Give it some time to register if you need. If you've never noticed, people make the assumptions of a persons knowledge based on how many animals they have, where they shop, what type of animals they have(which includes cost of animals), etc. This was the point of my post! Some people think the things I mentioned in my post dictate certain things, and as I was TRYING to point out with my examples of what could be the truth in reality should show otherwise. I basically was talking about people just like you I guess, albeit not so insulting! You have 5 snakes, you buy rodents occassionally from pet stores...does this mean you are an expert? NO! Does this mean you don't know jack? NO! Guess what though, you come here and brag about having 5 snakes and buying from petstores and guess what most people will ASSUME....your a beginner! Hate it all you want, blame me, call me names, insult 17 year old girls on my behalf, whatever you do realize it is generally the norm. If you read my post again, you may see I was actually(to repeat myself) defending people in your situation. But, you turn around and insult me. You know what, you can take care of 100 animals by yourself. You can clean twice a week and feed them. If you have proper set ups, you can clean 10 snakes as quick as someone can clean there one 55 gallon aquarium full of pine bedding/artificial plants/and water stains on the glass with a bucket of bleach water and a rag! You say yourself the number of snakes doesn't matter, but you seem pretty defensive of your five whether you realize it or not. Take care!

Paul
And I have plenty of reptiles to keep me busy, but numbers don't matter right?

NP
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Jaremy Douglas

Looks like you may be the immature one here, saying Paul sounds "immature, like a 17 yr old girl with braces" name calling, nice touch! Paul makes a few good points. People sometimes view other's knowledge by the amount of herps, type of herps, the time they have kept herps or even quality of their website they may have. I know a few people who have high end reptiles and a nice website that have only been in reptiles for 2 maybe 3 years. Some of these people have never dealt with disease, sickness or any other abnormalities that come along with keeping reptiles, but people still follow their word and advice like it is the law. Other's come here every season giving breeding advice, showing pics of courting and copulation and when spring comes they vanish, never producing a single litter! I am not saying that you have to produce offspring to be knowledgeable, so please do not take it that way. Reproducing your animals may not be everyones goal.
Your statement stating, "Having a hundred snakes is foolish, a person could not possibly take care of a collection that big and actually give every animal the attention it deserves." Hmmm..WRONG. I have been keeping reptiles for 18 years now and know quite a few people that have over 100 snakes and care for them on there own and some even have other fulltime jobs. I have over 300 boas and maintain them on my own, it is my fulltime job. I am lucky to be able to be a fulltime boaman and make my living from it! To say it can not be done is asinine, I am currently doing it. People who know me and have been to my place can vouch that all my boas are in great shape and my collection is immaculate. I am not trying to belittle you or call you out, but your statements are FALSE and I think you totally misunderstood or maybe misread Paul's post. Try going back and reading it with a open mind.
Regards,
Mike Weitzman
BASICALLY BOAS

Mike W. made a couple other points to me from this posting, and you just brought one to light in your post. One of those things-people have business names and no real business. You have 5 snakes and sign with "Justice Reptiles". What's that all about? Is it to make you seem more professional? If so, WHY? Does having a business name make people more knowledgeable? These are the type of things I was pointing out. People's perceptions. Some people see "Justice Reptiles" at the end of your posts outside of this one stating you only keep 5 snakes and there is going to be those that assume you have an actual business. And if you don't, then why do you have the name on your posts? I use PBM, it's my initials. I'm not trying to manipulate perceptions in any way going this route. Now if I start putting something like..."PBM Reptiles" it would seem I have a business and therefore should have some expertise, would it not? Take care!

Paul

>>Mike W. made a couple other points to me from this posting, and you just brought one to light in your post. One of those things-people have business names and no real business. You have 5 snakes and sign with "Justice Reptiles". What's that all about? Is it to make you seem more professional? If so, WHY? Does having a business name make people more knowledgeable? These are the type of things I was pointing out. People's perceptions. Some people see "Justice Reptiles" at the end of your posts outside of this one stating you only keep 5 snakes and there is going to be those that assume you have an actual business. And if you don't, then why do you have the name on your posts? I use PBM, it's my initials. I'm not trying to manipulate perceptions in any way going this route. Now if I start putting something like..."PBM Reptiles" it would seem I have a business and therefore should have some expertise, would it not? Take care!
>>
>>Paul
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

A little tense.

I have a nice case of insomnia right now so I'll answer vaguely. And, forgive the errors. I am tired.........Just can't sleep.

Knoweledge to me is a VERY subjective thing. Who do I trust? I guess someone I have seen over time. Having been on this forum for a while.......I do know some who's advice I will take with a grain of salt. (Or, their comments for that matter) Others, I have a huge respect for their experience and willingness to share.

Does it matter how many animals they own? No, not to me.

I look at myself within this question. I enjoy snakes behaviors. I would say I have a pretty good handle on that. I know something about breeding. But, to be honest..........If my snakes breed and produce.......I wouldn't say it is because I know the "tricks". I just got lucky in my mind.

Do I know how to treat respiratory infections? Well, I've read about them....That's about it.

I think that a responsible poster, who is answering questions, should leave a little "clause" at the end of their advice. Like, I've dealt with this........Or, this is what I've heard. Should people do this? Who knows. I find it helpful. But, the fact that they are trying to help someone out is pretty darn nice in itself. But, people should take most info as that. Info. Not written in stone.

I guess.........Back to my point since I am digressing horribly. When you have been here long enough you begin to make friends and recognize names. You see who is successful, who is not. Who is a good person to talk with. And, who you stay away from. And, I would think that would very depending on your own personality.

I think your question just has too many variables. Which is very common in life. One person could morgage the house hoping to make money and fail. Another could make their investment really work for them. I have seen both here. But, I'll tell you this. For the ones that are successful. There is a "potion" to success. "Modeling" successful behavior and not burning bridges. And, this works in every facet of life. Or, at least I have found it to be true.

In closing.............Since I am doing nothing but rambling and not really making any sense..........
I know of breeder/keepers that have over a hundred animals and they are very healthy and happy. Of course they are not all pets. But, the animals needs are met. And, from the people I am speaking of..........They are met better than most keepers that only have 5 snakes to their name.
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

you were referring to me being too tense or shadesboa. If me, sorry if I seemed tense. I wasn't, I just read an arguement in the ball forum where someone resorted to the "how many snakes do you have" arguement and it ended up in this posting. I agree with your means of determining knowledge. There is a lot more to it than the things I mentioned above, although they seem to be determining factors for SOME(not all). Get some sleep John, talk to you later. Take care!

Paul

I was talking to the "expert" whos panties were in a bunch for some reason. I think they are good questions to have addressed. I am just sorry I am too incoherant to think straight.
Have a good one bud!
I might have a shot if I don't go down soon. This is crazy! I love to sleep!
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

n/m

>>n/m
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

Great explanation!!!!! It just makes sense.

Wow! Peaple really come out of the woodworks when you post something that offends someone.Thats understandable,I really was'nt delliberatly trying to piss anyone off, I guess I did have "my drawers up in a bunch".I have simply seen to many collections that someone tried to take care of By Themselves.Your right Mike your collection is awesome.But from what you've told me over the phone you cuold not do it without Stephanie.As for everyone else I have not bought any animals from so I dont know you yet.Mikes albino Boa he sold me was one of my very fav snakes. Owell I guess everyone can chill out now and get back to posting pics!IM SORRY>
P.S.I would love to get back to were my collection consisted of anacondas,JCP,retics,burms,bull snakes and dumerils,but due to my wife having twin boys on Christmas day I have had to thin my collection over the last 8 months.Well Its about 7:00 so I am going to go check out Jeff Corwin try to find the longest snake on record.
JUSTICE REPTILES.

............I do not have the help I had before due to Stephanie getting a great fulltime job with the government. So I take the work and divide it up threw out the week and work a little everyday and make sure each boa gets the individual attention it needs.
I do not think you purposely tried to upset or piss people off, but when you made those statements it got to a few of us because it can be done and is being done by quite a few out there. No harm, that is what this forum is for, open discussion with varying opinions.
Take care,
Mike Weitzman
BASICALLY BOAS

I too have noticed much of the same...
a few examples..

someone who spends thousands on a digital camera and then pops out of nowhere, posts tons of pics, and suddenly he's an expert?

the knowledgable, experienced veterans who may feel it only takes 5 good snakes/pairs to pay for itself and more, yet never get the respect because he never goes out and posts a thousand pics or comments on everyones post...

the novice who is hoarding 100's of snakes in deplorable conditions thinking it's the # of animals that makes your status, meanwhile, already has more animals that most bigger breeders... just doesn't care for them well.

the silent type who may produce thousands of babies a year, but again, doesn't always try to be in the spot light so may never be known! Then tries to sell an individual snake retail and noone has ever heard of him!

The straight out thief who talks big to gain a 'reputation' but steals and sells other peoples animals he doesn't have and so on... thinking this will biuld up his 'business'.. lol

There's many examples, some totally different from others, but unfortunately it goes on way too much because there's no true way to regulate this..

If you are a bad guy, you can be banned from a site, but then return a year later??

If you rip someone off, the site won't give the victim the info??

If you sell thousands of animals but never ASK for a good guy post, you're not a good guy like the newbie who sold 1 snake and practically begged the customer to make a good guy post?? !!!

yep, that's what we have to deal with.... lol

What makes me laugh is the guy who argues with you over $10-$20, then threatens you over the net and claims to have hundreds of adults and produce thousands of babies a year.. but he's fighting over a $10 difference on a common boa.. lol
"Don't you know who I am?! You don't WANT to know me!! I'll be looking/waiting for you at ALL the shows!!!" ... lol LOL lol
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'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin
Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo

I have to admit that I've seen quite a bit of what you are talking about. People make assumptions based on all types of things, sometimes those assumptions pan out and other times they don't. I know people who only have a few animals, but they've been keeping that species for years, or decades, and have forgotten more about that type of animal than some of us will ever know. I have also met quite a few 'breeders' at local shows that know nothing about the animals they are selling.

For example, I am occassionally a vendor at a small local herp show selling jewelry that I make. In December I was seated next to a very nice person selling just a few animals. Of those animals, two were a beautiful pair of grey banded kingsnakes. He was telling me, and every potential customer, about how they were an excellent breeding pair (they looked pretty young to me, but I'm no kingsnake expert). They were marked much higher than smaller though comparable animals at other vendor tables, so most people that stopped to look didn't stop long. The guy, his wife and I discussed snakes and other herps for most of the day, talking about our collections and what animals we had bred or wanted to breed. As the show was winding down, he leaned over and quietly asked me what I knew about breeding kingsnakes (since the pair hadn't sold). I told him very little since I had only read about kingsnakes, never owned any. His next questions was 'do they lay eggs?'. Pause for a mental double-take...he'd been telling people all day that these snakes were breeders, yet it turned out he'd never bred them, only recently gotten them in trade and knew little or nothing about them...including that he was feeding a pair of 2-3 foot snakes pinkies or fuzzies. I recommended he feed larger prey and get online to look up some care sheets and visit the KS kingsnake forums.

To anyone at that show, this guy knew his stuff because he was selling a 'breeding pair' of grey banded kingsnakes that were good feeders and that he had 'raised'. I was the 'girl that sold jewelry' sitting next to him that didn't know anything about 'real' animals - despite the fact of having a modest collection of 25 snakes at home (26 after the show *grin*). For the other vendors and patrons that have gotten to know me, they know I know a fair amount about the several different species of boas, pythons and corn snakes that I keep. From the months of attending this show, I've learned that about half of the regular vendors that don't sell animals still have collections at home that they are quite knowledgable about and that a number of the vendors that DO sell animals are brokers and know little about long term care for specific species of animals. The patrons run the same gamut from knowledgable to neophyte keepers...and you can't always tell who is who.

Good topic Paul.
Raven

You come to the kingsnake forums and continually see someone post pictures. You have never seen them reply to an in depth question of any sort, but they have some nice animals judging by their pics. Someone asks you if you'd buy an animal from them. Would you recommend them because you know their name from the forum, and have seen nice pictures, nothing else?

Another person on the forums NEVER posts a picture, rarely posts at all, but when he/she does, there info is very accurate and helpful. But...you've never seen any of their animals, would you recommend them?

You're right, I know exactly what you mean. The internet, if used wisely, can create credibility and trust between folks who literally don't know jack about each other. My honest answer to these questions would be yes and yes. I have no problem referring ANYONE I know that has a particular animal that is being seeked. It's not my job to screen this person, all I'm doing is hooking someone up by sending them in the right direction to find a particular animal. If I know the person I'll say good things. if I don't I won't. Never have the words 'buyer beware' rang more true than in this internet era of the reptile industry. You just don't know who's who or who earned it and who's faking it. Overall I believe the majority of folks on the internet are good and true. Although I will admit I tend to avoid people who can't spell.