Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I find it amusing how so many people like to voice their opinions and personal knowledge based on what someone has told them or what they have read from an outdated book. This has never been about creating controversy, it's about trying to create a better and safer way to keep and breed chameleons and other reptile species. I also find it funny how someone was clever enough to create a "cv769" username and try to post a "waterbowl" question on this forum...oh that was a good one.

First an "opinion" from Clay Davenport (well known breeder of reptiles for over 12 years):

>>>>>UVB Requirements of Diurnal Lizards

This is one of the topics in herpetoculture that generates much debate. UVB lighting has been so publicized it has reached the point that the majority of lizard keepers hold the firm belief that lizards such as Bearded Dragons and Day Geckos will surely die without exposure to UV bulbs, and anyone not using them is bordering on animal cruelty.
I have never been taken in by the hype that UV light is an absolute necessity for the successful captive maintenance and reprouction of diurnal lizards. I fail to believe that a light bulb can in any real way equal the effects of natural sunlight.
I began this study around 6 years ago, with Day Geckos. I now have included Bearded Dragons, and will finally perform the tests on 2-3 species of chameleons.
At the present, I have maintained and reproduced day geckos during the entire study with no access to UV light at all. In addition I have raised bearded dragons and reproduced them under the same conditions. I am now beginning to look into the issue with Veiled Chameleons.
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
1.1.0 Savannah Monitors

First, remember...I am keeping Veileds and the article I was told to read and ridiculed for not knowing about, is about PANTHER chameleons...TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SPECIES! Lele also pointed out that the article is from 1998 I think which is more than 5 years ago! Much more advanced studies have been done since then!
Anyway...here is what the good doctor had to say to my more current questions...

QUESTION: Our growing baby chameleons are supplemented daily as their crickets or other food is dusted in a 22,000 IU/kg of vitamin D3...they recieve many other vitamins as well. We have stopped using UV generating bulbs for over a year and have not seen any health problems or signs of stress while using only supplements...what would your opinion be on this topic???

ANSWER: With continuous dietary doses of vitamin D that
high, it may be fine for "growing" chameleons but must be greatly reduced as they approach adult-hood to avoid renal gout and other long-term problems such as death at oviposition of females. (though not fully tested yet) However, using no UVB-emitting bulbs combined with dusting with that level of Vitamin D, when they are in reproductive condition might prove effective with fewer negative side effects. (again, no testing done yet)

QUESTION: If we were to continue using the UVB generating bulbs, would we slow or reduce supplement???

ANSWER: I strongly believe (currently) that, if you start using
UVB-emitting bulbs, you should use vitamin/ mineral supplements with NO vitamin D. The other nutrients in those supplements are probably ok for long-term use.

I think that some of the people in this forum need to do some extra critical thinking and research before making a biased opinion. I wonder sometimes where all of these opinions come from...at least I have the sources to back up what I am claiming...I'm trying to learn what is best, what works, and what doesn't. So far nobody had been able to come up with any scientific facts on chameleon supplementation except their own opinions that have been conjured from who knows where.

I e-mailed Dr. Ferguson once more with a few follow-up questions and I will post those as well...when he replies.

Here is what the doctor left me off with...

I'm glad to see interest such as yours in propagating veiled chameleons! Information for supplementing any species of chameleon is scarce. Please see inserts below regarding your questions. Please keep me posted on any breeding and hatching success that you have.

Have a good year.

Gary

P.S. Our book (Co-authered with Jim Murphy and two Malagasy herpetologists) on panther chameleons (Krieger) will be out in the next few weeks. It has my latest findings and opinions on husbandry of panther chameleons.
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
1.1.0 Savannah Monitors

First, I'm wondering if you informed this Dr. of your plans to post your private email on a public forum, out of context, and to use his words to try and force your argument?

If you are bound and determined to raise your chameleons without the benefit of UV bulbs, then do so. But stop your strong-arm tactics and telemarketer persistence in trying to convert or conform everyone else.

You asked in one of your earlier posts "why carry an oar when you already have a motor in the boat" or something to that effect.
Well, anyone with an ounce of common sense isn't going to take a motorized boat out without a paddle...in case the motor breaks down.

In other words, a back-up plan is always necessary.

If you are diligently supplementing your chameleons, wonderful. but not everyone who reads this is going to be as committed to doing that, or as careful with amounts. For you to be on here preaching that it is just fine to never use UV bulbs, and just supplement instead is doing a grave disservice the chameleon species.

People WILL look for the easiest route possible. The people on this forum are continually stressing that chameleon care is not for the lazy, and that much research needs to be done before taking one on.
You can be sure that somewhere someone is reading your repetitive posts about how UVB is not necessary, and then posting a Dr's email to attempt to back it up, and they will take from all of this that they can stick a chameleon into a cage, with a plant grow light, toss in a few crickets here and there that have been coated in a vitamin powder containing D3 and all will be right with the world.

If it works for you...great. But, I hardly think that just over ONE year of doing it this way constitutes any success at all. Lets wait and see what time bears out. Lets see how your chameleons age, and how their offspring turn out...and so on. Then maybe you can claim success. One year, or one and half years is just a blip on the screen. You are in no position at this point to be claiming success at all.

Obviously this type of research needs to be done to be proven out, so don't get me wrong...I'm not criticizing what you're trying to prove...just stop ramming it down everyone's throat in such an irritating way. When you have successfully produced and raised a couple generations of healthy chameleons, then bring your facts to the table.
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Kim

Funny that you bring that up...if you have read the earlier posts you would know that I have been working with a local breeder who has NEVER used UV with his chameleons...he has his masters in Herpetology and has kept and bred chameleons of all species for over 20 years. He provides the mixture and we continue to experiment. His most recent chameleon death involved a 9 year old male veiled who had died from old age. The reproductive success of the chameleons also has never been a problem.

I am in no way "forcing" anything down anyone's throat...I am in no way attempting to convert and convince everyone to do things the way we are...I previously inquired if anyone else had attempted an experiment such as this...instead of answers I recieved criticism and complaints from people who swear by UV emitting bulbs.

I don't know where you found the idea that I was trying to implicate the idea into people's head that supplementation is the only way to do things...since there is so little knowledge about any supplemnetation for chameleons...I feel it is an excellent place to start progressing from.

I the issue of people taking the easy way out...someone can read anything and interpret it the wrong way. I think any responsible pet owner would take the time to recieve all the facts before taking one internet post as the "golden rule" for chameleon care.

If nobody tried anything new where would we be today? Funny how new ideas and theories are often ridiculed by the people who know the least about the subjects that apply to them.

As for the paddle and the motor metaphor...I wouldn't dig too deep into that, it's a simple english figure of speech...although you have a clever way of looking at it.
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
1.1.0 Savannah Monitors

Once again I ask: did you inform Dr. Ferguson that you were going to take parts of his email to you to support your arguement in a public forum?

You said: If nobody tried anything new where would we be today? Funny how new ideas and theories are often ridiculed by the people who know the least about the subjects that apply to them.

In the last paragraph of my original reply to you I said:

Obviously this type of research needs to be done to be proven out, so don't get me wrong...I'm not criticizing what you're trying to prove...just stop ramming it down everyone's throat in such an irritating way. When you have successfully produced and raised a couple generations of healthy chameleons, then bring your facts to the table.

I stand by that.
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Kim

I agree and would also like to know if you had informed Gary Ferguson about how you're using something he said to try to back up and cheap/lazy/stubbornness that you've developed. 1 year of successs isn't enough to think you've won and I also agree with something someone said in that you need to find the correct information to pass on to anyone who mistakenly buys a chameleon from you, or any other reptile. I would be very upset if I was a new buyer and was told you didn't need UV. It's obvious that you're going to fight this to the bone, but you're not going to win in here so just do what you wanna do but quit making it sound like it's right and ok. You still have no real reason to think you're right and so far noone has come on and defended the information you're saying.
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Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV
www.BLUEBEASTREPTILE.com

I doubt he is here to start chaos, only to make you think.
Remember the chameleon in the glass tank theory?
Well now it's the "You don't need uv theory".
Although I LMAO when I read his posts I for some reason feel bad because he seems to believe what he's saying.
All you need to do is look in the monitor forum and others and you will see the many questions asked yet has a link in his signature stating Reptile sales and info.
Just rememeber his name so when he starts selling chameleons..
I can't resist, I told ya so, I told ya so..

Chris,

You keep mentioning your friend with the masters degree that is helping you. Where are his posts to back up your claims. Why isn't he in here educating us? Where are his documents to back up your claims? What's his secret formula for gut loading? We have developed our own gut load and share it with any who want it. We even have given samples away to many who purchase chams from us. Our vet recommends it to all his patients. What are you doing for the chameleon besides making claims that haven't been documented or proven. Until you can prove your proceedures stop forcing them on others.

Why haven't you answered my question as to just how your chameleons process vit D3 without the use of sun light? You have many questions you need answered and we try to answer you. But when we want you to explain your ideas to us you seem to find a way to avoid answering by attacking us on another subject.

We have over 300 chams, 5 different species, and are working on many second and third generations of these groups. This is over 5 years of work. The UV lighting is a very big part of this.

Looking forward to your book, when is it coming out?

As Chris stated in an earlier post. Keep posting here, if nothing else its entertaining.

Yosemite
Reptayls, Ltd

Chameleons can process D3 without UV lighting. It just is a fact.They DO NOT NEED UVB lighitng to process D3. They ned uvb in order to metabolize d3 NATURALLY and their body converts these precursurs to active d3. This is the best way to ensure the animal gets proper bone density.

But, as I said before, they do not NEED UVB to process D3. If the ACTIVE form of D3 is given artificially, they can--rather ineffeciently--absorb it into their bloodstream through the digestive tract.

I have done it done it for years, with calytratus and phelsuma, two of the most calcium needing things in existence!

Any scientist that says that chameleons require UVB to absorb calcium is incorrect. I am sure that the scientists in question were not inferring that, but simply inferring that UVB was required for the NATURAL processing of D3 from precursors present in the animal.

Chameleons can be maintained for generations with NO UVB light--I did it.

Are chameleons Eaiser to maintain with Artificial sunlight and NATURAL metabolic processes in place of artificially administered amounts of active D3? Oh heck yeah they are.

But can they be maintained with nothing but a 100W sylvania light bulb, rep-cal and herptivite? Yup, I raised about a hundred of them that way from parent, to eggs, to sub adult. Some of them were held back as breeders too. Never had a calcium problem.

Eric,

Thanks for taking the time to explain this. I can now understand many of the statements you have made in previous posts. This has obviously worked for you, good luck with your chams. We started with the UV lights and have had good success, so we will continue in this manner.

Yosemite
Reptayls, Ltd

First off, if you'd like to contact the breeder I work with...feel free to call him at:

(807)-474-6602
John Westerback

(I've already consulted him and the Dr. on the permission of using his number and the e-mail...so you can all stop crying about that)

And someone was puzzled how our chameleons can sythesize Vitamin D3 without UVB...SEE Eric Adrignola's last post...I would think it's almost common knowledge that chameleons can synthesize calcium through D3 supplementation...the issue is: whether or not it is safe or healthy for the chameleon and it's offspring.

In the last e-mail with Dr. Ferguson, we discussed more about supplementation...He concluded in saying that there are not enough controlled studies preformed by himself or others (though he said many, many europeons believe supplementation is a good idea) to prove that supplementation is safe. I also asked how often a bulb change is necessary if we were going to go back to our old methods...he said they change their bulbs every 18 months...

He also believes that radiometers are not very accurate in measuring UVB...though apparently they are conducting a study and the results will be out in a year.

Even though we could provide bulbs just as we did more than a year and a half ago...we are interested in looking at easier, healthier, and more cost efficient ways to raise chameleons. (veileds especially) We have records of past sucess with bulbs and excellent hatch rates usuing bulbs...but I'm interested in preforming controlled experiments for the benefit of chameleons. That is why I just finished taking 4 years of biology...and soon I'll be entering a herpetology course (another 4 years).

I'm not even going to argue anymore whether or not we are inflicting long-term damage to our chameleons or possibly shortening their lifespans...as soon as one of our chameleons dies...we'll be making a trip to the vet and have an autopsy done to determine whether it was from natural causes or abnomalities cause by supplementation.

Since there is not enough information to prove whether one way is better than another...I wonder how so many people can voice opinions and criticise ideas they know so little about.

If our chameleons die from abnormalities in the kidneys...most likely renal gout...I would submit my results to Dr. Ferguson as well as others and inform people of the dangers of supplementation...

Since it has worked for close to two years, with no problems...we will continue to use supplementation as a primary source of Vitamin D3 and Calcium. Their are enough people to support either arguement but the safest recorded way to raise a chameleon is by sunlight or a bulb....even though I hate the bulbs, if set-up properly they are beneficial to chameleons. And no, if I were to sell a baby chameleon I would recommend sun-light...or a bulb to a customer...even though the baby would have been raised with supplementation. (you can now continue to debate whether or not that is right but the customer will be informed of my methods prior to purchase...they will also be informed that our methods are not reccommended until proven safe)

This was never in anyway about starting controversy or anything of the sort...in the original question...I was looking for anyone else who is attempting to use the same methods we are. I was looking for potential problems or successes...but instead found people are highly sensitive to this subject...this will be my last post on this subject as it is too tiring to repeat myself and argue senselessly with certain people as it just goes round in full circle.

I find it funny how I can be ridiculed for asking simple questions about species I am unfamiliar with. I truely only have substancial experiance with chameleons of all species, green basilisks, and bearded dragons. I didn't know asking questions to find opinions and answers was a bad thing...I suppose I could just call up a local breeder and recieve information there...but then, that's only one person's view...here I can get many different suggestions and ideas.

I am sorry, if I insulted, offended or criticised anyone...but in previous posts I have recieved equal treatment. Thank you for dicussing a very controversial subject and I hope you all have success with your chameleons.

Here's a baby beardie...hatched approx 1 month ago...how can you be mad at a face like that?

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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
1.1.0 Savannah Monitors

and had good results just supplementing them with D3 instead.
They are healthy and breed with no problems.
I have never tried it with my chams. Maybe because I just don't want to risk it with them. Maybe because they seem to seek out the UVB bulb and I did not notice that as much with my Day Geckos. I just chose not to try it out with them.
I did notice that when I switched my Veileds to MV bulbs (of course giving them dense shade as a retreat, I wouldn't put them in natural sun with no shade available) They ate better and seem healthier.
I have had no problems using Reptisun 5.0 bulbs and I get them for pretty cheap. About 17.00 each and they last for about a year. They just do not seem to be an expensive investment to me.
After all my animals repay me with lots of eggs every year so I just think the light is a safer more natural way for them to produce D3. I actually went back to using them with my Day Geckos also.
Adding too much D3 scares me since it can be toxic so I feel I would recommend using the lights to begginers as I feel it would be safer for them as opposed to risking D3 poisoning by accidentally overdoing it.
I am just sharing my personal experience and do not mean this as an attack. I have no where near the herp experience you do and I just like to share new ideas and compare experiences because that is how we all can improve our hobby.
Sonia

If you ignore it....it will go away!! You all ignored me and I went away....

(just kidding!! I know Lele was jumping up and down celebrating her triumph over my smart ass responses)...

But cereally folks....don't feed him reasons to keep posting attacks....ignore his posts and he will stop posting....no need to fight with the brainless with brainless answers.
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Raf

1.2 Jacksons Adults (Frank, Patty, Lucille)
0.0.1 Jackson's baby (George, R.I.P. 11/17/2003)
1.1 Nosy Be's (Mars and Roja)
1.1 Veiled - No Names Yet
0.1 Adult Sulcatta (POOPIE,I bought it from Victor at Kobey's in SD)
0.0.2 Baby Sulcattas (frick and frack)
1.0 Home's Hingeback Tortoise (SPEEDY, From Victor as well)
1.2 Red ear slider babies (Hingis, Dingis and Dorkus)
0.0.1 3 toed box turtle - No Name Yet
0.0.1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle - No Name Yet
1.0 Red Siberian Husky (Harley)
0.1 Black Lab (Krissy)
0.1 English Bulldog (Alice)
0.1 Blue Merle Great Dane (Wednesday)
Saltwater Fish and Inverts too

But it just got to be too much for me, and I caved.
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Kim

I know...he DOES have this knack for getting attention, doesnt he?
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Raf

1.2 Jacksons Adults (Frank, Patty, Lucille)
0.0.1 Jackson's baby (George, R.I.P. 11/17/2003)
1.1 Nosy Be's (Mars and Roja)
1.1 Veiled - No Names Yet
0.1 Adult Sulcatta (POOPIE,I bought it from Victor at Kobey's in SD)
0.0.2 Baby Sulcattas (frick and frack)
1.0 Home's Hingeback Tortoise (SPEEDY, From Victor as well)
1.2 Red ear slider babies (Hingis, Dingis and Dorkus)
0.0.1 3 toed box turtle - No Name Yet
0.0.1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle - No Name Yet
1.0 Red Siberian Husky (Harley)
0.1 Black Lab (Krissy)
0.1 English Bulldog (Alice)
0.1 Blue Merle Great Dane (Wednesday)
Saltwater Fish and Inverts too

because it's NOT what is said...it's HOW it's said.

I try to take it all with a grain of salt...especially since the guy is a fellow Canadian and all...but I really just wish he'd tone it down, or proof read what he says before he posts it.

I bet he's a great guy in real life, and I 100% believe he doesn't mean any harm to anyone or anything...it's just the posts give off such an attitude and that's what gets under my skin.
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Kim

Sorry, if I offended you or anyone else...not trying to deliberately piss people off. I guess I should have proof read the posts before submission...maybe this whole UV thing is a topic that should be closed on this forum for a while...

I think the whole issue of Vitamin D3 and UVB needs to be taken in small doses...(oh terrible joke)
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
1.1.0 Savannah Monitors

You know what Chris? You're alright.
You've got a good knowledge base, and you're questioning authority. You're not just blindly following someone else's opinions, and you don't let facts get in the way (just trying to lighten the mood, I was kidding!). You're asking all the right questions.
Now if we can get you to work on your netiquette....
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi.tripod.com/sdchamkeepers/
gomezvi@yahoo.com

Ha, thanks. That makes me feel better.

Did you hear about the new disease caused by canaries? It's called chirpees and it's untweetable...(oh terrible joke)
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
1.1.0 Savannah Monitors

Than really hurting us with those jokes!
I hope you know I really am kidding!