Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I DON'T SEE ANYTHING ABOUT A PERMIT BEING REQUIRED IN TEXAS FOR EASTERN INDIGOS ON THE INDIGO SITE, ANYONE KNOW IF SOMEONE WOULD HAVE A PROBLEM WITH TEXAS WILDLIFE OFFICERS OR DO THEY KNOW HOW TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE (IE. HEAD SCALES)?

You will encounter a great deal pf problems with a couper in Texas. They have a blanket law, which extends protection to not only D. c erebennus, but any other species resembling such.
John Cherry, a large Pituophis breeder, among other species, related to me accounts he had with Texas officials, when he maintained D. c couperi and D. c unicolor. Apparently the situation was so bad, he quit working with all Drymarchon.
John also informed me that part of the problem may extend to the fact, several years ago, I believe he mentioned it ocurred in the early 40's, a group of ranchers released approximately 200-300 D. c couperi in Southern Texas to help irradicate the Crotalus population.
However, I would suggest you contact Texas Fish and wildlife in regards to this, just in case they have eased up a bit. You may try to contact Floyd Potter, as he is a herpetologist for the state of Texas. You can also contact John at cherry@flash.net He is quite helpful, but it may take a little while for him to respond.

Best of luck,
Jeff

THANKS FOR THE INFO, JUST A IDEA OF MOVING SOMEPLACE WARM, ITS COLD UPHERE I'LL. GET IN TOUCH WITH THOSE PEOPLE FOR MORE INFO.

Wow! That's news to me! Anyone else hear this? Anyone know any articles? I can see it happening, but to think that many erebennus lines may be "contaminated" with couperi is a lil tough to swallow!!!

I would like to hear a lot more on this!

A.C.
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A.C.

www.gradeareptiles.com

Yeah, I haven't heard that one before either.

I am a native Texan and have heard this story for my entire life but have never found any substantiation for it. It's always someone who heard it from their uncle, grandpa, etc.

Perhaps the most illogical portion would be that they would import Easterns when the "Snake King" in Brownsville always had scores of very reasonably priced erebennus in his holding cages. Much cheaper, no shipping, already adapted to local conditions. Even in the 30's and 40's, the Texas Indigo sold for far less than couperi; Raymond Ditmars bought them from the "Snake King" to feed to his King Cobras!

I too would be interested in hearing from anyone who has more definitive information about this persistent "legend."

Tom Lott

I was informed of this directly from John Cherry, also a long time Texas resident of Texas. He owns a large enviromental company, to the best of my knowldge as well.
So far as it being a legend, I am not certain, I try to take everything with a grain of salt, but John's knowledge is not something many folks, self included, will question and his reputation is impeccable, as I am certain anyone who knows of him will agree.
Does anyone know how to get ahold of Andy Price? I'd be curious to hear his thoughts as well.

Jeff

That may explain why some Texas Indigos appear VERY dark in color, I remember back in 1981 as a University Student in Calgary 1 of the local Herp guys that owned a Petshop bought a Texas Indigo that was suposedly collected around Del Rio, can't rememebr the guys name but he was from Canada & lived in Alberta, he DID collect a LOT of Graybands over the years as well. Apparently he travelled down south a couple times a year to field herp.

Any-HOO gettin back to the Indigo in question it was VERY black in color I wouldn't go as far to deem it a red throat but it didn't have the lighter facial coloring you see in most Texas Indigos. Would be interesting to find out if this DID in fact happen, I'm sure ions ago when the Drymarchon range was larger in the southern US both species probably naturally intergrated anyway. Has there ever been any locale specific data recorded on Drymarchon?? I've been told by some pretty reliable sources that the high red Couperi were found mainly in southern Florida with some of the reddish ones being found around Dade county..... any thoughts on this folks???

As always fact or fiction if nothin else this topic should generate some interesting discussion.

have a good day....

Dean

Most Texas Indigos are very dark in coloration. I believe we have discussed this here before, but most field guides (especially Conant & Collins) feature shots of specimens that are somewhat light-colored anteriorly. I have never encountered an erebennus in Texas that remotely resembled the one in that guide. In fact, most look very much like couperi except for having olive-drab or rusty-brown colored labials and gulars.

Tom Lott

I have found erebennus from the top of their range (around) Del Rio to the bottom of their range in Mexico and I have never seen one as light as the the one photographed in the Conant field guide (or as light as most captive TX indigos). I would love to know where those tan headed TX indigos come from, but it isn't anywhere in TX that I have seen.

Just for kicks, imagine you came across the indigo pictured at this site (I love this photo) indigo pic. That is a typical wild TX indigo. Some tan on the face maybe, but otherwise a big black snake.
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Chris Harrison

...he was beginning to realize he was the creature of a god that appreciated the discomfort of his worshippers - W. Somerset Maugham

I grew up in Homestead, FL (So. Dade County) On the Air Force Base, we often encountered D. c couperi, I actually found more D. c couperi then Elaphe! All of the D. c couperi I found had salmon to scarlet red coloration on their chin and approximately 25% of their anterior ventral scalation. On two ocassions, I located individuals with solid red heads, both of these were located within the Phantom Lake wilderness area on the South side of the base.
I returned to Homestead in June of 91, after completeing graduate studies at FSU, but only located 4 D. c couperi. Again, all specimens located were red-chinned in coloration. It was quite disappointing though, as I was there a week and only located 4 specimens, where years before, I could normally locate twice as many in a single day. For the fisrt time, I encountered many more Elaphe. I was also disappointed to find a decrease of Crotalus and T. gopherus, which had proved somewhat numerous in prior years.
I would be interested in knowing what others have found in different locales.

Jeff

The Indigo's were eating them all......... LOL

That area you mentioned Homestead is exactly where Bill Love & Tom Crutchfield told me that the brightest red ones could be found. I was told by someone that lives up here the Indigos in the Ft. Peirce area were the reddest however when I put this question to Tom & Bill they claimed the redder snakes were in south Dade County just like you said. The guys also claimed that Eastern's tend to be bigger, bulkier & blacker the further north you go, has anyone else in here made these observations?? I would make sense to me since that seems to be the case with E. Obseletas, blackest rat snakes I've caught are in upper NY state or Ontario, Canada.

Any thoughts on this??? Always nice to hear other folks experiences with wild Eastern's since most of us will NEVER see one up close in the wild.

have a good one........

Dean

I don't think a State permit is required in Texas for an Eastern Indigo. However, a Federal permit will be required if it is purchased from outside of Texas and transported to Texas.

The potential for hassles is always there in a state that protects one or the other subspecies. In Florida you can keep Texas Indigos, but there is a potential for a Wildlife officer to mistake it for an Eastern, and for Texas, the reverse is true.

The third supralabial scale is a definitive ID key for Eastern Indigos. Here is a picture that Dean Alessandrini posted a while back for comparison:

Comparison photo

You might want to download and print it.

THANKS, HAVE THE INDIGOS, AND THE CONANT FIELD GUIDE HAS A VERY GOOD DEPICTION OF THE DIFFERENCE, NEVER COULD UNDERSTAND HOW SOMEONE IN WILDLIFE COULD MAKE THAT MISTAKE.

Well, you have to remember, reptiles are not always considered a state's most valuable resource, from a game and fish stand point, so most of the focus goes to fish and mammals, especially game animals, thus the knowledge of most enforcement agencies is not focused in the direction of reptiles and amphibians.
However, Texas has been one of the most proactive states in the union, so far as its protection of reptiles and amphibians and Texas has maintained been been employing full-time herpetologist longer then most any other state.
I believe they created the law, in blanket form, to ease the burden on an overly burdened enforcement agency.

Jeff

that the Texas regulations generally list only the species level for the animal that is being "protected" (i.e., the Texas Indigo is listed as simply Drymarchon corais).

There are several authorities who consider the Eastern Indigo to be a full species (Drymarchon couperi), but I have found that enforcement types are not exactly inclined to discuss the vagaries of classification philosophy with "perps."

Tom Lott
Texas T&E list