Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Marcial,

I don't think anyone doubted you skills as a snake breeder, or how you keep your animals. If you read the posts below, there were a few people getting personal, but most of them shared their differing opinions and expressed them quite well.

He asked why this subject was so taboo??? I don’t know if anyone can properly answer why in one post, but we shared our opinions just like you shared yours. We did get a little personal at times, but we love the hobby and our animals.

Just like boys and girls are different snake people and frog people are different!!! Sometimes we get along, other times we don’t. When we look at our frogs we see them differently than you do. The same goes for us looking at your snakes, I look at a GTP and I think that is a gorgeous Green Tree Snake, I really like the markings – where you would see that it is a GTP cross between two localities produced by Marcial. The details are very important.

A big fear of every frog breeder & hobbyist I know is not being able to tell the difference between a cross & a pure frog. I am posting this picture again. Ask yourselves these questions and each time think how different people would answer.

Look through the eyes of a beginner, a hobbyist & a breeder.

1. That frog has different colors than the others, and is ½ the price of everything on the table. Would you buy it?
2. The frogs have similar colors and the guy told me they were cobalts, would you buy them?

Just something to think about... Which frog would you choose if it was your first frog, the one on the left for $25 or the one on the right for $45?

Melissa

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Quality Captives

I would choose whichever one looked the coolest. To me local purity is of no consequence.

Actually, I would choose the one on the left... the colors are brighter, and I like the contrasting white toepads. IMO, it is a better looking frog.

...and that is my point. To me, the frog on the left is pretty, but he has zero value to me as a hobbyist/breeder. I like them, but will never sell them or give them away. I enjoy looking at them, but egg laying in not encouraged and when they do lay the eggs are either ignored or tossed (I have also fed some to tads).

Believe me when I say the crosses we have are the exception to the rule.

Something I failed to mention is this cross has already been confused by a friend of ours. I actually pulled the picture of the cross from a customer's web site. He took the picture at our house and labeled it on his site as a Dwarf Tinc. I need to bring the error to his attention, but even experienced hobbyists will make mistakes. Check out his web site and you will find another picture of a cross he owns. http://www.angelfire.com/me4/pets/frogpics.html The labeled cross is typical of a mutt!!!

If people do decide actively breed crosses and sell them on the market, your best bet is to vote with your wallet. Purchase frogs from reputable breeders and use resources on the web and your own herp communities to identify them.
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Quality Captives

the frog on the left has no value to you because you want only pure localities. It is your right to feel that way.

In my OPINION, the frog on the left is way more valuable than the one on the right because in my eyes, it looks better. I like pretty frogs. Likewise, it is my right to feel this way.

We both have our opinions, and neither one is more right or wrong than the other. That's all I have been getting at all along.

THATS NUTS!

Sorry the frog on the left is fadded, and does not look half as good as the one on the right.

Your just trying to get people going... Go be a troll someplace else!
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

Melissa wrote: "Just like boys and girls are different snake people and frog people are different!!!"

Thanks Melissa. You managed to say in one sentence what took me several paragraphs! My more lenghthy way is below, in response to Marcial's original post.

Chris D.

>>Melissa wrote: "Just like boys and girls are different snake people and frog people are different!!!"
>>
>>Thanks Melissa. You managed to say in one sentence what took me several paragraphs! My more lenghthy way is below, in response to Marcial's original post.
>>
>>Chris D.

That's a load of hooey. I keep snakes (pythons) AND darts, AND dwarf monitors, AND leopard geckos.

>>That's a load of hooey. I keep snakes (pythons) AND darts, AND dwarf monitors, AND leopard geckos.

Let me clarify my point more. Am I less of a frog person because I also own other herps? I only have two darts right now, but I have four jungle carpet pythons, a ball python, five leopard geckos, and two spiny tailed dwarf monitors (ackies). My reptiles far outnumber my amphibians. Am I supposed to be some kind of alien creature just because I have more reptiles than frogs? Not all snake people approve of 'crosses'. I myself don't think that diamond pythons X jungle carpet python crosses look nearly as good as their parent species. Some do, some don't.

Snake people aren't different from frog people at all, and to divide the hobby like that does everyone a serious disservice.

Arklier - please don't take me too seriously when I say that. The difference between frog & snake people is more of a joke and an extreme statement to make a point.

One of the frog ladies!!!
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Quality Captives

First, I feel the need to reiterate that no one ever claimed that there existed cleanly divisible groups consisting of only one type of person. What I had said, and what Melissa was referring to in a lighthearted way, is that there are tendencies among certain types of keepers. I clearly said that some people keep different types of animals for different reasons. I am such a person.

Second, no one ever said or implied that one type of hobbyist was less than another.

Third, to ignore such tendencies is just as harmful as overemphasizing them. To say that there is no difference between, for example, snake and frog keepers, or to say that we keep both types of animals for identical reasons is to not only deny what is obvious to any pet shop owner and to any reader of these discussion groups, but it also does a disservice to all animal hobbyists by lumping them into one homogenous group with the same values and attitudes.

Why do you have more reptiles than amphibians? Opportunity and cost factors might have been at play, but there were also decisions drawing upon your values. Owning any herp is not a necessity of life. We choose to own them and those choices stem from our values. From those values one can reasonably conclude that there are tendencies -- not absolutes -- that characterize certain hobbyists and certain hobby choices.

In short, while I cannot speak for Melissa, what I wrote, and what it appeared to me that she intended, was respect for differences, not condemnation.

Chris D.

You clarified those statements very well!
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Quality Captives

RESPECT: a big reason why you should not produce and sell mixed or hybrid dartfrogs.
RESPECT, for the 95% of the hobby that wants the lines to stay pure and clean. The number of orginally imported frogs that are still alive or reproduced is minimal. Some studies have shown that 8 generations of inbreeding doesn't impact the frogs like it would humans, and we as a hobby need to get as much genetic material out there for a frog base.
and then you have RESPECT, for the people that have spent the time and made it possible for us to even have and keep dartfrogs.

Now if someone doesn't show the hobby respect then WHY? should anyone show them any?

Benjamin

VERY TRUE!

When I frist started looking into frogs I quickly learned why it was not a good idea to mix. Just as you said its a matter of respect for the hobby, and the future of these animals.
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

Marcial, if you are so keen to crossing things, get yourself as bulldog and a [bleep]zu and tell me what you come up with. Take your crossbreeding passions elsewhere...we dart froggers don't want any part in it. We could care less what your opinions are in the matter.

-Bill J
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nt

Just because we do not agree with his opinion, doesn't mean he can't share it.

I think he has some valid questions as well as valid points.

He can make a choice to listen to others who have been breeding frogs for years, or go out there and do as he pleases. I don't know about others, but I was always one of those kids who asked "WHY?" so much they wanted to duck tape my mouth!!! I still ask it. I was also a kid who had to learn lessons for myself. One example which is classic Melissa growning up, was my experience learning that burners on the stove were hot.

My mom told me so, and I had to experience it for myself. I touched a hot burner and got burnt. Did I every do it again, NO! (at least not intentionally) but I learned that I should listen to my mom! She knew what she was talking about.

Marcial has a choice. He can learn from the discussions on this forum and build on the knowledge we share, or he can do as he pleases. We have shared a lot of info with him, I hope he (and others) will choose to follow some of it and support the ideas and ideals we all hold dear.

Well...off the soap box, I have frogs to feed before I go to bed.

Good night,

Melis
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Quality Captives

If I may add sir, I have not yet formed an opinion on the acutal issue(so this is not a comment about the acutal issue), because I am still learning and can not draw any conclusions from my limited understanding. This is why I feel that it is important for the issue to be discussed and differing opinions, facts, thoughts, ideas no matter how provocative they may be have a full presentation. It can help us understand more clearly why we believe what we believe and if those beliefs are indeed sound. I do want to hear the Newbie perspective as I have wondered about the question myself, but have not had enough info to understand with resolve what I might believe I would like to do and why I would do it. The replies, especially ones that explained reasons(scientifically related facts to personal preferrence opinions)in a calm, non-offended way, were the most helpful to me since I could then just consider the content of what was said and take it without the encumbrance of all the emotional weight. I do believe, that some here may benefit from his differing opinion whether we agree with them or not. So, from one that is still learning about how to treat these magnificent charges of ours, and the future of these ones we love, would you all continue to offer up your thoughts? I will not always agree, but I hold your differences in high regard as they in the end improve me. Thanks again to you ALL! Maggie

I second that falcon, Issues are settled a lot faster when they arent sugar coated.

aj
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Here is my new image hosting site! I have made it Bigger, Stronger, Faster!
kungfu28181: My god. You are insane. -Mon Jun 30 21:41:05

Wow, you two are real tough-guys... Falcon, I will not take my opinions elsewhere. Last I checked, this was an open forum. My opinion is just as valuable as yours. I will be around here alot more in the future... these new frogs I got are really growing on me. I will be posting pics of my viv construction process over the next few weeks, and will definitely keep everyone posted on my breeding projects as well as my animals mature a bit. Don't like what I have to say? Then don't read it, but this place needs some differing viewpoints. I will not be pigeonholed by "traditional" thinking.

If you truly like your frogs, and you really want to be able to share them with others, you will not cross breed them.

*You* can control what happens to your frogs. You know that, I know that, we ALL KNOW THAT.

If you sell a hybrid to someone else, and it breeds (and furthermore is sold to an unsuspecting person), the situation is out of YOUR control. And it your fault.

If you want to be able to have a serious conversation with the vast majority of the PDF community, you will not create hybrids.

But that's your choice - you will most certainly be shunned if you sell hybrids.

Scott
Sanford, Maine

I glad you'll be staying around. I think you are entitled to your opinion no matter what. I do think you condescending to those who don't choose to do things differently and are traditional purists. Being different doesn't make you better,declaring you self innovative and first to have this or that doesn't make you better. the struggle to be different is something most people go through in high school at the same time they struggle to fit in with everybody else. people are goofy in my opinion.

I don't know you I hope your a good guy and have lots of luck with your frogs I wish the same for everyone. As for tough you me and everybody is tough on email. People who won't say boo face to face are suddenly macho online. For what its worth I'm tougher than yoooouuu. ;-P Lol. I think you attitude helps bring it out in some people. Give them a chance to know you show them the respect they deserve and they will show you the same respect. Pitch in, help and share what you know.

as for breeding new morphs...in my opinion it is all derivative from what is all ready in the frogs. people who raise beautiful healthy frogs that live long health lives impress me. People who build beautiful tanks impress me. people who are courtious ,humble and nice ( it is so hard to be nice when people are not nice to you.)impress me. If your great preople know it. And if they don't why would you care if your great and you know it. By the way, if you want to impress me cross a cane toad with a dart frog. Now that would be impressive!
It would still be derivative but it would be a derivative work at had some level of difficulty.

ROTFLMAO

Peace dude

John

This monster has started making my head hurt
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Matt

Hello all,
I have been reading (but not posting) on this forum for quite some time.
I have read all the attached messages and would like to add my $.02 (Canadian, so only about $.01 US).
As the natural habitats are disappearing and locals become overlapped, wouldn't you think that some cross-breeding would be occuring naturally (there are already a large number of Tinc varieties)? If any new morfs were found in the wild, everyone would be knocking each other over to buy them.
If Marcial wants to add divesity and some new thinking, I say great. All we need is one good cross to add some excitment to this arguement (and the frog in the left pictures is a fine start).
My only complaint is that all new cross should be clearly identified so that the end consumer knows what he/she is buying.
To think that cross-breeding will never happen in the hobby is just not realistic, I think steps should be taken now to ensure classification of these new morfs is done.
Just my thoughts...

***"As the natural habitats are disappearing and locals become overlapped, wouldn't you think that some cross-breeding would be occuring naturally (there are already a large number of Tinc varieties)? If any new morfs were found in the wild, everyone would be knocking each other over to buy them."***

As natural habitats dissapear, the frogs dissapear, there will be no overlapping of locals. Yes, as habitats dissapear the frogs will recede into what remaining habitat is left, but when the habitat of one morph is gone, so is that morph. Dendrobatids are not capable of migrating over miles of cattle pasture, crossing moutains etc to get to the next available suitable habitat. The topography of central and south america is incredibly variable, and this i belive is a huge factor in why we have so many natural morphs to begin with, all the rivers, mountains, tepuis, savanas which occur have allowed populations of frogs to evolve over the past sevaral thousnads of years in relative isolation from neighbouring populations of the same species. When the remaining forest island habitats of azureus are gone, azureus will be gone in the wild, they will not migrate to join the nearest tinc populations and have some fun with them.

***"If Marcial wants to add divesity and some new thinking, I say great. All we need is one good cross to add some excitment to this arguement (and the frog in the left pictures is a fine start)".***

this is by no means new thinking.

***"My only complaint is that all new cross should be clearly identified so that the end consumer knows what he/she is buying.
To think that cross-breeding will never happen in the hobby is just not realistic, I think steps should be taken now to ensure classification of these new morfs is done.
Just my thoughts...***

I agree with you here, its unrealistic to think it wont happen. Its also unrealistic to think that it will be undertaken responsibly, as has been shown by examples in the past. Anyone "marketing" new morphs will be doing it for the money, there is little incentive to market new morphs for any other reason. Obviously with little regard for the natural heritage of the frogs. In the dart frog market, the new morphs and species available usually command the highest price. With that in mind is it realistic to believe that these hybrids will always be labelled as hybrids, or as an "exciting" new morph? And this is why bothers people.

the obove is my opinion, and wasby no means intended as a flame. Always good to see another canadian on the forum.

Mark

HiMark,
I appreciate your experience with the frogs natural habitat and would understand that it would be difficult to cross certain geographic boundries so no "natural" mixing.
On to breeders. I beleive everyone can agree that they prefer to buy their frogs from reputable breeders. This would eliminate the possiblity of buying hybrids as new species.
Their service (during and especially after the sale) cannot be beat.
I cannot beleive that someone would "have to have" a frog they see at a show as a new species and not have any previous knowledge about it. This forum is full of new info and most hobbyists are kept well informed. I cannot accept the arguement of "tricking" a new buyer as a reason not to create hyrids.
Time will tell if the hybrid idea flys.

Personally, I like to keep the frogs the way one would see them in the wild. That way when people see them, it would be the same coloration as one would see in the rainforest. That is one of the reasons why these frogs are so fasination. The colors are not "man-made" hybrids, but what nature intended.

WM