Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have to admit that i am ignorant when it comes to CITES classifications and rules of trade/ importation.

My main curiosity is with the Yacare Caiman. On the croc fax page is says that they are CITES appendix II along with most of the other crocodilian species, many of which are readily available to the "pet" trade. Dwarf caimans, Trigs, Alligators, ect.

With that said, why are Yacare caimans not readily present in the trade as well, or am i just looking in the wrong spots ??

Judging from the adult size of females that were listed it seems that they would make a better captive than Niles or american alligators, and dont seem as shy as the dwarf caimans (One of my friends has one, and its far from shy)

I am not purchasing anything soon ( New home for my nile and dwarf in Feb) But am interested in the future.

Thanks

Matt

In May, 2000 Yacare was down-listed from endangered to threatened by the USFWS (see Fed Register V65 #87). Keeping the threatened status allows the Fed to require paperwork and allow inspections of cargo to establish that the shipment comes from the proper areas as there are some parts of the range where they are still endangered.

At the same time, (May, 2000), common and brown caimans were added to the threated list due to similarity of appearance to yacare in finished processed products. The Fed argued that the differences are so minor that an ordinary inspector in the field would not be able to tell the difference, thereby potentially allowing illegal shipments to enter the US. Currently, with proper paperwork, yacare, brown and common caimans can be imported into the US as long as they are in the form of goods.

Live specimens, including live eggs, are prohibited by reason of them being an invasive species (witness the current problems in Florida), it has nothing to do with their status in the wild. I happened to have personal communication with the officer in charge of this at the Fed level of the USFWS. I asked him why they are targeting those three species as invasive and still allowing the import of Nile crocodiles which, if loose in South Florida, would potentially create a much worse problem. His answer was that the USFWS is understaffed and underfunded and that these things, while valid, take time. He left the door open, in fact stated, that as time passes more species would be prohibited due to invasive species classification. He was not referring specifically to crocodilians.

Bill

I've had quite a few dealings with government both local, state, and federal regarding reptiles and crocodilians in general. The entire 'invasive' species thing, while correct in some cases, is simply over the top for most of the United States. They will however use this as a tool to progressively drive species from the live animal trade. On some levels I'm ok with this as long as avenues are open for CB animals.

On an entirely different front.......and I have heard quite a few different thoughts and ponderings.....have the Florida caiman really damaged the ecosystem they live in? They are restricted by environment and die off in cold weather which prohibits a more northerly spread. American alligators are a larger species whose numbers have certainly not been hurt.

And just to stir the pot a little more, why is it any more 'unnatural' for man to introduce a species than nature we are part of nature correct?

Just a few comments for fun. A little theory on a sunny day

Chris,

I agree with you. THis invasive species is over stated. I live in Florida. You just dont see that many caimens down here. They had some populations here a few years ago when there was base housing on homestead AFB. But this is largely gone. We had 3 catastrophic freezes in the 80s that selected out alot of invasive animals and plants. Its just another ruse to impose will and infringe upon personal rights.

Best wishes,

Ed

Not disagreeing at all about what the caiman are or are not doing to the local ecology in FL, but out of curiosity, how about some of the other animals that we are always hearing about that have established themselves in So. FL? Cuban anoles, Nile monitors, iguanas, lately Burmese pythons, etc. In your opinion, is this overblown media hype or are these (and other) nonindigenous animals creating a problem for native species and threatening their survival?
Up here in the north, we are seeing enormous damages caused by feral organisms such as zebra mussels, milfoil, lampreys, some species of moths and many other "guests". Now, I'm hearing about some sort of "flying fish" of some sort that is on it's way up the Mississippi and creating havoc along the way.
I'm actually in agreement, in many cases, with the Fed doing something to control this spread of invasive species in order to save our natural wildlife. Whether or not that means the USFWS has to ban them, or if some other means of controls will work, I don't know.
The problem with "pet" owners, in my opinion, is that there are just enough irresponsible ones out there to spoil it for the majority who are responsible. These people have no problem at all with going out and releasing thier unwanted pets - either through ignorance of the consequences or just not giving a S&!t. I'm afraid that as long as the sole qualification for ownership of exotic animals is the correct amount of cash, we will have to face the reality of unwelcome regulation of our hobby.
People get very excited at the thought of the government stepping in and inhibiting our rights, and rightly so. But do our rights as individuals override our responsibilities to our environment. What if we can't, or won't take the responsibility, should the problem be ignored? It's the age old arguement, we have to police ourselves lest we be policed - but how?, who?

Bill

I'd ask the same questions particuarlly about the pythons, monitors, etc. Are they actually established in any numbers, is there any substantiated ecological damage.

I think all should be done that can be to properly preserve 'native' species so long as the science is behind the action and not some statement like, 'well there are 10 wild burmese pythons eating racoons, ban them all'.

Again I'd ask also, are we not part of nature and if our actions lead to the establishment of a 'non native' species is that anymore unnatural to the world than if they float somewhere on a tree.

Just for debate, not saying I buy into everything I say 100%. I just seriously have my doubts that Nile monitors/burms/caiman in Florida are serious problem to the ecosystem. All are restrained by their own physiology. I think nonnative plants that get into waterways and agricultural areas are often a MUCH greater threat to ecosystems than a few groups of the above mentioned species.

Heck large modern agriculture(read hog farming) is more destructive than 1000 Nile monitors could be. And we make it easier for them.

I think its leaning on the side of media hype. Anytime some one finds a lizard it makes the news . These animals are living in urban suburban habitats disturbed areas if you will.

A good example is the cuban anole. It has followed landscape up the coast of Florida. You find them in every neighborhood. You go out to the woods and you see the Carolina anole. In a surburban heavily landscaped environment the Cuban anole thrives. 1On natural footing, the Carolina anole predominates.

The key is to restore the environment where you can. The state and federal government is actively doing this. This will return the natural flow ways as best as possible between Lake Okeechobee and the Everglades. This will return several million acres of disturbed habitat ( the water conservation areas) to a pre development environment.

Best wishes,

Ed Brown