Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello,
I have a 3 month old hatchling Eastern Box Turtle, it shares it's enclosure with a 6 month(?)Mississippi Map Turtle. It is a 20 quart rubbermaid container(I think)and has gravel as a substrate, a swimming pool for the Map(or the Box)a food dish that just has turtle sticks and a fake plant. Over head there is a U.V. light for when the Map basks, even though it spends most of it's time on the land. Does anybody think this habitat/enclosure will be good for now? The Map eats turtle sticks, and I feed the Box a piece of chicken(it refuses to eat lettuce and turtle sticks). Could a piece of chicken a day get it through the winter healthily until I'm able to get worms? I'll take any feedback on this one.
Michael Fedzen

I'll start with the habitat first. You need to separate the turtles. You have two different types of turtles and one container can't suit both thier needs. You are going to want deeper water for the Map turtle so it can swim. You do not want deep water for the box because it could be a drowning risk. The water dish for the boxie should be easy to get in and out of and cleaned frequently. Get rid of the gravel- I don't use any gravel becuase of the risk of ingestion by the turtle. I use moist coconut fiber or something similar. It is more natural for boxies and you will see him exhibit natural behaviors such as digging. The boxie will need his own UV light and get a lamp to provide a warm spot on one end of his enclosure. Put some plants, rocks, and hide spots for your boxie and you will find him climbing and using them.
I don't use chicken for my turtles, though people have different opinions. Plus raw chicken could potentially pass salmonella to your turtles, which can't be treated. Your boxie may be stubborn, but he can be convinced to eat other things. If you fast him for a few days and offer him sticks, eventually he will be hungry enough and come around and eat it. Do some research about boxie foods and habits. For example, if you are feeding lettuce, don't bother with iceberg becuase it is not very nutritious. Instead try turnip greens, endive, mustard greens, or kale. If he is picky, try some live crickets. Worms are fine but if you get them from your yard, make sure your yard is not treated with pesticides. And don't forget your calcium supplement! =)

(You are going to want deeper water for the Map turtle so it can swim.)--- The water is deep enough for the Map, about 1 to 2 inches deep. If I put him in deeper water he frantically tries to get out.
(Get rid of the gravel I don't use any gravel becuase of the risk of ingestion by the turtle.)--- I feed the turtle on a rock in the tank, it has no chance of eating gravel.
(I use moist coconut fiber or something similar. It is more natural for boxies and you will see him exhibit natural behaviors such as digging.)--- My Box Turtle already digs into the gravel.
(The boxie will need his own UV light and get a lamp to provide a warm spot on one end of his enclosure.)--- They have a heat pad under their tank, it keeps the tank warm.
(Put some plants, rocks, and hide spots for your boxie and you will find him climbing and using them.)--- He buries under the plants, digs them out and sleeps under them.
Michael Fedzen

if you already had all the answers why'd you even bother posting?
Clemmy's advice was good.. you should listen to it..

Why'd I bother posting? To see what people thought of my little setup.
Michael

i agree largely with clemmys' post.
The two should be seperated.
you also say this:
"They have a heat pad under their tank, it keeps the tank warm. "
Thisis a bad idea. The box turtle's instinct is to dig down to cool down. They look for well-lighted areas on the surface to warm up so the turtle will have trouble getting comfortable.

Its cool to try to keep different animals together but you have to work really hard to make sure you are meeting their needs.

If the map seems frantic in deeper water it may not be due to a fear of the depth (which may not be able to sense anywa...if you feet can't touch the bottom the wtae could be 7 feet deep or 700 feet deep....hard to tell) then set u a tank with a a shallow area and a deep area and fill with lots of floating objects and semi-sunk ones...i use platic plants, silk plants and the lids to plastic storgae containers. These help th hatchlings have a sense of security and give them resting places when they swim.

Chicken is okay but you will ned to get him eating other stuff. At the very least you should try live worms (blackworms/bloodworms, meal worms wax worms, red wigglers) and small crickets. Try soaking the chicken in a mash of squash calcium powder, bits of fish, and dark greens super finely grated.
He may eat some of the other stuff by accident.

The map will do okay on pellets but try to supplement with insects and some fish bits if you can.

Thanks for making the point about heat sources...I don't use heat from below for that very reason. After all, the sun doesn't shine from underground.
Stephanie

I have another question for all of you who have/have had/kept/seen a baby Eastern Box Turtle before. I have seen many many baby Eastern Box Turtles. And everyone of them that I saw had numerous spots on their shells. My Box Turtle has 1 spot on it's spine. Is that normal? This is the only baby Eastern that I have seen that has had only 1 spot and it is kinda faint. Some of my friends and family doubt that it is even a Box Turtle but the closest thing it could be would be a Blanding's Turtle. It can't even be that though because Blanding's are black and my turtle is brown except for when wet. Should my turtle have spots?
Or will it get spots? It is still only 3 months old.
Michael Fedzen
If I did it the right way, click below for a pic of a baby Eastern.

Wow you wouldn't even need to click on anything. See all of them spots, mine has 1 small spot. Somebody help me out.
Michael
Here's another pic.If it works again.

Just as adult eastern box turtles have can very different markings, so can the babies (to a degree...they're all pretty drab compared to adults). One of my hatchlings is almost completely dark brown: its mother is also almost completely dark brown/black with a very few small dark orange spots. i'll be inrested to see how the coloration develops as it grows.
Nothing to worry about, in other words, that yours doesn't seem as colorful at this stage.
I think the first hatchling photo you posted is of a florida baby, however, and they seem to have more spots than eastern hatchlings, from what I've seen.
Stephanie

Oh ok thanks.
Michael

If you have a 3 month old box turtle, 1-2 inches of water is probably a little deep. The map turtle can't even dive in that water that shallow.
Turtles will still try to eat things, whether its time for you to feed them or not. Your turtles could still bite at that gravel any time of the day. I don't like the gravel as a substrate for the boxie. Coconut fiber is much easier for them to dig in. In the wild, they dig in the leaf litter to hide during the night.
The heating pad under the tank works great for heat, but you still need UV, especially for those babies.
If you have a nice healthy boxie, you can't expect him to keep his tank tidy. Digging and messing up plants are all in a day's work, but they still provide shelter and stimulation and are good to have.

(If you have a 3 month old box turtle, 1-2 inches of water is probably a little deep. The map turtle can't even dive in that water that shallow.)---I know it can't dive into water that deep, it doesn't even dive into the water anyway. When it does bask, the rock just barely gets above the water, if it goes off the rock it is already swimming.
(Turtles will still try to eat things, whether its time for you to feed them or not. Your turtles could still bite at that gravel any time of the day.)---Ok I agree with you there. (I don't like the gravel as a substrate for the boxie.)---Truly, I really I don't like it either but I had it in it's own tank with soil, people told me to spray him alot to keep him moist, so I did. After spraying him the dirt would get stuck to his shell and his face, a little messy.
(The heating pad under the tank works great for heat, but you still need UV, especially for those babies.)---I know I need UV, the tank has UV lighting for alot of hours during the day and into the night.
(If you have a nice healthy boxie, you can't expect him to keep his tank tidy. Digging and messing up plants are all in a day's work, but they still provide shelter and stimulation and are good to have.)---Ok I like to have them in there too, plus he is a little shy and loves to hide under the plants in with him.
Michael

I don't think that chicken alone will prove to be an adequate source of nourishment for the baby box turtle until worms become available... try to introduce other foods for a little more variety, including bits of fruit or vegetables.
My hatchlings have peat moss as a substrate: it retains moisture well, and is easy for them to dig in and closely approximates leaf mould in texture (which is what they'd probably spend alot of time in in a natural setting), and when they ingest any during a meal, they can spit it out or digest it. Your concern about messiness is amusing: what do you think they do out in the woods? A couple of my adults spent weeks estivating in a mud wallow last summer...they weren't clean, but they were very comfortable.
Keeping the two together for anything but the very short term in such a small habitat just isn't a great idea, and I think you can do better with the substrate: gravel is far from ideal.
Stephanie

Ok,
I have decided to change alot of stuff around.
I don't know when(soon I hope)I am going to move the baby Box Turtle into it's own tank(10 Gallon), I hope that is good because that is all I can provide right now. I'm going to use some kind of moss for the substrate. I don't have any clue what I'm going to do with the feeding situation. I feel it is really easy to feed it chicken. So far he has completely refused turtle sticks and lettuce. There are no places around me that sell live worms, pet stores around me have frozen red worms, but I'd rather feed it live worms. I'm still kinda stuck on the whole heat pad thing. Right now in the tank with the Map there is about 4 or 5(maybe 6)inches of gravel. One of the turtles would have to dig about 3 or 4 inches under the gravel to feel heat from the pad. It's mainly there for the water side. The Box does dig into the gravel but it usually hides in the hidebox or digs into the ground a little bit under a plant. Ok I have another question, if I would not use the heat pad for the Box Turtle's new tank the temperature would get to be around 68 and a couple degrees cooler during the night, is that an ok temperature? I know a UV light won't provide heat for it. I don't feed the Map only turtle sticks, I also handfeed him guppies and chicken. Would it make the chicken better for the Box if I put some kind of calcium supplement on it before I feed him?
Michael

Are there any bait and tackle stores near you? You can always find worms, etc there. Also I would recommend doing a little more research on box turtles and aquatic turtles along with their habitats.

No there are not any bait and tackle shops near me. I'm not trying to be rude or anything but, why should I do more research on Box Turtles and Aquatic Turtles?
Michael

Everyone who owns a turtle should read and research about these animals. They are so complex and interesting! Just look at their diets and how many things are important for a healthy turtle. Pardon my frankness, but you had two incompatible turtles together in less than ideal set ups. To me, that says you didn't know enough in the first place. Based on what you have expressed, you are not going to have the happiest and healthiest turtles possible. Whats wrong with being super smart about turtles and knowing your stuff? The more I read, the more I realize how little I know about turtles! I am constantly improving on their quality of life when I read about what they do in the wild. If you really love your turtles and taking care of them, then you should continually read about them. I want my turtles to outlive me and live a healthy, enriched life as close to what they would experience in the wild. I want their health, appearance, and longevity to reflect the amount of care and time I invested when I decided to take on this life long commitment.

Ok,
I don't want to get involved with yet another argument, I don't like when people on kingsnake.com hate me over stupid stuff, not saying this is stupid. I have worked out the whole two different turtles/1 tank/2 species thing. Each have their own tank. I do read alot about herps in general just because I love learning more about them than I know.
Michael

Michael, nobody is arguing with you. You asked for feedback after describing your setup, which is what you received. It's unfortunate that you think that people on Kingsnake "hate you".
This is a box turtle forum, with alot of box turtle lovers contributing their opinions, knowledge, and experiences, so it comes with the territory that you be told whether or not your setup is ideal for a box turtle.
It can never hurt to read more about box turtles: general care type manuals really just don't cut the mustard, and there is alot of bad information out there, and any literature that says "easy to care for" probably won't cover anything but bare minimum requirements.
General herp care info is what probably what led you to use an undertank heat source, which is inappropriate for box turtles, as explained in an earlier post.
Stephanie

Life is a learning process. Stay curious.
Stephanie

"Could a piece of chicken a day get it through the winter healthily until I'm able to get worms. I'll take any feed back on this one"

"Why'd I bother posting? To see what people thought of my setup."

"I'm not trying to be rude or anything, why should I do more research on box turtles and aquatic turtles"

PLEASE BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF. WHY DID YOU POST IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Weren't those like 3 different posts? I posted to get feedback, which I got alot of. Which made me change my mind on alot of stuff.

My baby Box eats lettuce know, I put a dish in it's tank every morning with turtle sticks, lettuce and a couple pieces of chicken. He eats all except turtle food.
Michael

Its good to hear that you're making appropriate changes. If your hatchling is trying out the lettuce, that is a hopeful sign that it will try new foods.
You haven't said what part of the country you're in, but I would urge you to check the produce section at your local market for other greens like collards, mustard greens, turnip greens or romaine lettuce. Do not offer spinach or iceberg lettuce: the lettuce has virtually no nutritional value, and spinach interferes with proper calcium absorption.
Also try grated carrots, winter squashes, sweet potatoes, mushrooms, strawberries, canteloupe.
Your local pet store may stock live crickets and/or mealworms: my hatchlings enjoy the occasional cricket, although I have to amputate a leg to make the cricket easier to catch, and I have heard others recommend severing the heads of mealworms, because they can and do chew on hatchlings.Go outside and look under logs for pill bugs, or small grubs.
Box turtle nutrition is another area that you should do some more reading on: you will find that you have more options, and your turtle more complex dietary needs, than you think.
Stephanie

Ok see there is a topic I couldn't get much info on. Almost everything I read said they won't eat fruit, vegetable matter only meat. That's it. And they'll eat worms.
Michael

If you go back to the 'welcome' page of this (box turtle) forum and click on 'Archived/Old forums' you can search the archives for that sort of info. Just do a search for, say, 'hatchling care' or 'feeding hatchlings', or 'hatchling food' you'll find a good deal of information posted previously by folks with experience in the matter.
Eastern box turtle hatchlings are indeed more carnivorous than the adults, but that doesn't mean that they won't try other foods, or that you shouldn't offer them.
Stephanie

Ok thanks I'll check some of that stuff.
Michael

Here is one of the most fun and informative sites that you will find on box turtles also:
Link