Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Sam you keep saying that monitors have never been found together in nature. At fist, you said never, now you say to feed and to breed(quickly??) You say, none of the, over a hundred studies have never seen any of that. Also, you say its not in literature.

I find that whole thing very curious. I have many books of Australian reptiles, These include books on natural history, reptiles specifically, even about solely monitors. If seem to remember many mentions of these books talking about seeing such species as Pygmy mulga monitors, in groups under bark or rock exfolliations(seveal books) I also remember reading about V.caudolineatus, doing the same in another part of Oz. Also, an articule sent to me by Jon Wiegal(his I believe), mentions V.kingorum occuring in congregation(in winter, I believe) Aslo in Raymond Hossers book, he mentions finding stacks of storrs in a very small area in the Town of Charter Towers. I also remember reading an articule of V.albigularis, that mentioned finding them in pairs and trios, at the base of sunny boulders on hillsides in the winter. To change up a little, I remember reading about gilas doing that in a big fat book on Gila monitors and Beaded lizards, by a couple of real famous herpers. Hmmmmmmmmm I often wondered why albigs were called Rock monitors. There are these and many more.

Now what I ask is, has anyone else read this and why you(Sam) haven't?

On another note, your from back east, I am sure you visited Timber rattlesnake dens, are you saying those have nothing to do with social behavior. If you do, then they den for survival?? Ifs that what you believe, why don't you find lots of babies?? I asked that of someone else about gardersnake dens(?????) as well. Then you must be saying if no or few babies are found in dens, that the babies must grow to adult size in a few short months. Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Now please do not ask me to go thru and actually point these exact articules for you. As a professor, you have the resources to have someone else do it Or, you for that matter. Thanks FR

if snakes den together for social reasons, why do bull snakes (gopher snakes, I think you'd call them in the US) share dens with prairie rattlesnakes in parts of Alberta, Canada?

Finding animals together under a rock, or piece of bark, doesn't automatically imply anything social. I'd be thinking shared resource first. If garter snakes were social animals (breeding excluded, for I think we've covered that even solitary animals must get together to mate), they'd be together throughout the summer, rather than just wintering together and mating when they emerge. Mating after winter denning makes good biological sense because of the mass of snakes in one spot, rather than having to seek each other out later.

As far as the garter snakes go, I've commented on the babies in an earlier post.

As you all say, without the confines of cages(wire), and all the millions of oppertunities that wild reptiles must have, why are they in the same place? If they are anti-social or even, non-social, then wouldn't they find their own spots?

We do see several species sitting together on our study site, and we see this thru-out the year. In fact, I have seen some very remarkable events. Like in one spot, in the summer, I found an adult blacktailed rattlesnake coiled in a crevice, and coiled right on top of it, was an adult Banded rock rattlesnake. While that was very odd, a month later and about 200 meters away, I found an adult Blacktailed rattlesnake, coiled on top of, six newborn Banded rock rattlesnakes. I have to wonder??? F

usually the sort of crevice that suits one snake suits another individual of the same or other species. Although in our eyes all of the crevices may look the same, in the eyes of those reptiles some crevices are better than others. You'd be well versed at seeing this in a lot of reptiles. Often different reptiles use the same resource at different times, sometimes at the same time. If the resource is taken away, will those reptiles still get together at that spot for each other's company? That's what I am asking.

In the case of snakes denning in Canada we see extremes of crevice sharing in some areas simply because 'bad' crevices aren't deep enough to escape the cold, and 'good' deep crevices are few and far between. A 'bad' crevice would mean certain death. Winter kills where lows of -40 (without windchill taken into account) are not uncommon (and that's the same temp in F or C).

If snakes of different species did seek each other out because they liked company, rather than because they were after the same resource, what would be the biological advantage of that given that little in nature happens without a reason? Also, does it happen regularly enough that it becomes 'what that species does' or is it unusual enough that it sticks in your mind, as the examples you gave seem to have done? The fact that you mentioned that these were 'remarkable' events suggests the latter.

Frank, I am enjoying having a civil exchange with you.

Thats all fine and dandy, but heres a pic of gila monsters that stay together for many months at a time. In the same area as this pair is three more pair. I have been watching this group for 24 years

Please remember, Daniel Bennett was thinking very much along the line as you, until he came here. Where I showed him pairs in captivity and pairs in nature. Of course, I like Daniel, not because he believes me or the animals I presented. But simply because he is not aware of it and keeps open the possibility that something is going on.

I surely understand why you think like you do, coming from a very cold place like canada. But please remember, reptiles are equatorial by number. that is, there is an overwhelming number of species and numbers between the tropics. Its here that this behavior of congregating is harder to understand. Its not nessesary for reptiles to find one special place to winter, not even here in Ariz. Yet, the adults congregate and the neonates and non breeding individuals do not. How very interesting.

So, Please explain this pic, remember, they have been together for many months. F

P.s. It does seem odd that I get to post the pics of real reptiles in pairs, and you fellas get to keep figuring why and how that is "not" what it looks like.

When I look at that photo, I think of the photo that other guy posted of the pair of shinglebacks. I fully believe you that gilas could be found staying together for long periods of time and believe that other guy that shinglebacks appear to pair up as well.

Nature has patterns and breeding strategies are often a reflection of the shapes, sizes and colours of sexes in animals. Although Gilas and monitors are related, breeding strategies don't necessarily follow taxonomic lines. Diamond pythons and some populations of carpet pythons, even though they are the same species, have different breeding strategies (larger females in diamonds, larger males that combat in some populations of carpets. Shine wrote an interesting paper on this, which I think you and I discussed some time back).

I'll be honest, I know only a small amount about Gilas, but Gila males and females seem to be of similar size, from what I have seen in your photos of pairs. They have short little legs, have a lower preferred body temperature (and metabolism) than monitors (according to what I have read), and live in a harsh habitat that requires them to stay put for long periods. Their ability to travel long distances in search of mates, or anything else, is somewhat limited, especially when compared to something like a lace monitor. They are also reasonably sparsely distributed, from what I understand. I imagine the reason you are able to find your Gilas over and over again is by looking for particular crevices where you know they are likely to hole up, or basking spots they prefer that are nearby, indicating some site fidelity. I recall seeing your photographs of them in crevices, as well as out basking. Put all together, it makes sense that to ensure reproduction, a male should hang around a female once he finds one, for his chances of finding another in a real hurry are slim. Can't move far, harsh conditions, sparse distribution etc etc. Like most species that pair up for long periods (perhaps life) males and females are very similar looking in size and colouration. Like swans, for example. Or shinglebacks (who also live in harsh conditions, have short legs etc etc).

Lace monitors are big movers, athletic animals with powerful legs capable of covering long distances in a short period of time. A big male may have a home range of 100 hectares or more, overlapping the home ranges of a few females. They have a high metabolic rate and can not only cover a lot of ground quickly, but don't risk dehydrating when they do so because most of the areas they live in are quite heavily treed. Males are much larger than females for a reason and that is competing with other males, for even though they probably know the females in neighbouring home ranges, chances are other males do, too. Male lace monitors engage in combat when they see other males in the presence of receptive females and many large males seen out in the bush carry scars on their shoulders indicative of this. Successful males, which are often the larger ones in these combats, mate with more females than smaller males, which is why there is selective pressure for them to be larger than females. Like bears, for example. Since females lay one clutch a season in most of their range (until proven otherwise - but if you spent a year in Sydney you'd know that conditions in at least this part of their range aren't conducive to multiclutching), there is no selective advantage for a lace monitor to pair up but strong incentive to mate with as many females as possible.

So, even though Gilas are lizards, and are related to monitors, comparing their breeding strategies is what you would call apples to oranges.

np

Now that you feel Gilas may pair up and shinglebacks are known to do pair up as well. May I include our tortosies, I took Daniel and showed him a pair about five years ago, they are still there and still in a pair. When daniel saw them, in was late april, i just saw them again in Nov. and again in Dec. of this year.

OK now that we have finally got that far, Please remember, I do not care if you think of it like I do, I merely want you to observe that its happens.

I have seen many of our rattlesnakes, and kingsnakes do the exact same thing, for years and years, Whatever you want to call what shinglebacks do, is about what I have seen these do. But the way, a friend in queensland reported to me that Land mullets,egernia major(i believe) does this as well.

Today on varanus.net, I will post pics of five different pair I found together in nature. While I have to admit, I do not live in Oz so i cannot verify if all actually stayed together for many many months. But I have gone to the same places and found pairs thru-out all the different seasons. In one particular instance out west, My friend found a old abandoned cattle trough, under this we found a large pair of red ackies. Twentytwo months later, I went back with another group of people and found the same pair there. (you can make of that what you will)

With the photos of the five fair, four of those pair are obviously pairs from seeing the pics. They were all viewed in the field as pairs.

While i do have many more pics of pairs in nature, It would take some searching to find them. And if you disagree with these five, what good would another ten be.

The point of this is, you can now see, that from the gilas, to the shinglebacks to geckos, to agamas to the snakes, eventually to the monitors, I have seen the very same pairing. I have also seen that in captivity.

Whether you or I call it social or pairing or whatever, its something and its something other then non-social. ITs also something other then convience. Unless its convient to be social. Because I found it easily repeatable. Its not rare, we could all question how common it is. But thats not the point. I believe i mentions before, i believe about 10 to 15% of the breeding adults do this.

I am sure, you can find shinglebacks singly, as I have done so. In addition, it is documented that they pair up for life. Whatever you want to call this condition, is what I have seen with many reptiles including monitors.

I agree, its bloody hard to see in lacies or any monitor that is as aware as lacies. But, I have seen it with them as well. There is one major problem with that, and that is, you must first know where it happens, and go there to see it, not walk around and see it.

About finding reptiles, you should ask daniel about this, or anyother person who has been in the field with me. I do not look for the monitors or reptiles, not at all. I look for evidence of what they do. Then I find the monitors doing it. In fact, I consider myself very poor at spotting reptiles. I do have many stories to verify this.

To lighten it up a bit, once i was investigating a tree, as I was standing there searching the tree for signs, my son yelled at me. He said, dad, look behind you, DADDDDDD, look right behind you. I turned around and looked, I saw nothing. He then yelled, look down. So i did. There within a meter of me was a very large robust male V.p.rubidus. Good thing he has eyes. i could have sat on the dang thing.

Now for the whine with the cheese. I never cared if any of you believe or our convinced, I do not believe debate should settle a problem with something tangible. In that type of discussion, its best to see for yourself. All I am responsible for, is you make you aware. The rest is your problem. The fact that folks in the scientific comunity, fight this stuff tooth and claw, is totally beyond me. Also the fact that you make it about personalities is totally beyond me. And Please, do not blame me, this information is the same as i offered in the start of this discussion. All you had to do is think and ask the right questions. That I refuse to lead you around by the nose, does not make me a liar or a demogoggle or whatever Sam called me. For not leading you by the nose, I apologise. For turning the tables on you and exposing your experience is not rude or out of line in any debate. The rest is your fault for attacking me and not asking questions. Remember, I never cared to convince you of anything, I only hoped you would open your eyes. I do realize, that is entirely up to you. Thanks F

Okay, I am going to consider all of what you said.

Desert tortoises I know little about, but I'd guess that they'd fall into the 'not likely to travel a lot to find several females' category, so it might be advantageous for a male to stick with a female when he finds one.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that you have found a male and female lace monitor together outside of the breeding season. How many solitary lace monitors did you see for every pair together? The question I would have would be, if this occurs in 10-15% of adults shouldn't close to 10-15% of sightings be of pairs? Even though they are wary and flighty animals, you'd still see (or hear) two animals scrambling up trees to get away as surely as you'd see one. Or when birds alert someone to the presence of a monitor by the ruckus they kick up, why do notoriously sharp eyed birds only see one of the pair? If I were to combine the experiences of all of my herping friends (some of which are incredibly good field herpers), plus two biologists that did extensive field studies of this species for a few years each, using telemetry as well as observational studies from blinds etc and perhaps throw in the hundreds of anecdotal sightings made by the lay public that happen to like bush activities like horse riding, bush walking etc, we'd be talking about hundreds of thousands of man hours in the bush. Nary a mention of lace monitors hanging out in pairs outside of the breeding season.

We still have the issue of nothing happening in nature without a reason and I can't think of what biological advantage a male lace monitor could have by hanging around with the same female, unless he is an less than successful male that couldn't compete for other females. Even then, post breeding season isn't going do much for him.

As far as me attacking you, if you read the previous posts I think you'll be hard pressed to find an instance of me attacking you personally, and when I do attack it is retaliatory. I find all of that personal stuff off topic. You may note that when I mention man hours in the field above, I did not include myself - otherwise I know where the conversation is likely to go.

Cheer up, Frank, I don't need your help with the literature. What puzzles me is that you can remember things other people wrote, but you keep misquoting what I've written. You're not stupid, so you must be doing this for some other reason -- even that little bird can remember correctly where the window is. If you want a reply about something I've written, don't misquote me.

Now, snake dens are interesting, because we can use their properties and geographic distribution to get at some real biology. Whether it's garter snakes, timber rattlesnakes, or western species like C. viridis, only the northern populations of each species display denning behavior. In the southern parts of their ranges they don't use dens. Quite reasonably, this has been taken to mean that low winter temperatures play a defining role in whether snakes den or not.

Now it is also true that these species mate at or near the den sites, but it doesn't follow that denning is "for" mating -- instead, the principal reason for denning is that there are relatively few places where snakes can get well below the frost line. It is secondarily "for" mating, and where there are several apparently suitable den sites available, most snakes go to the "most popular" one. So there are two reasons, but one comes first.

When these species do not den, they do not aggregate to breed, but instead look one another up singly. Nature is complicated, and you need to be careful about deciding what a particular behavior is "for", just as in monitors.

I so so tired!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!hahahahahahaha

I did not attempt to quote you, at all. Must have been someone else. Besides, you did not repond to any question again. Look man, If you want to be rude, I can be. For instance, I will point out each question and instance you avoid.

where have you been, I live in the southwest, and without a doubt, they congregate here.

You know, you can never win this, as its only your opinion over my pics of reptiles including monitors being in pairs. Over and over and over.

I do understand you can easily show single individuals. So Hmmmmmm I guess it boils down to the haves and the have nots, I have pics of pairs, both in captivity and in nature. You do not. The rest is totally silly. So far, you have skillfully avoided real discussion on these pics. So I guess I will change my tactics. I will show the public the pics then see what they think and include your silly comments.

Sir, if you are science, I want no part of it, If fact, I run the other way screaming like a child. And surely I do not need you to help me understand the generations of monitors we have had in captivity and multitude of pairs and groups of monitors I have already seen in nature. That you say it does not happen does not and cannot change the fact that it DID happen.

I showed Sam this pic and his comment was, the two with their heads down are that way because of the other one. Hmmmmmmmm. What is funny is, do you see any agression in their eyes? Those of you who actually keep monitors will understand this. Do you see scares from fighting? When they are threatened they do inflate their necks.

What is so scary to me, is not whether Sam believes me or not, I could careless, whats scary is, he does not ask, how?why?where?when? what? you know the questions that reporters commonly ask to get a handle on the situation. Now asking why or what or the history or what happened after this pic, thats what is dissapointing. Sam that is sad. F

Posted by: FR at Sat Jan 10 14:10:30 2004 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Sam you keep saying that monitors have never been found together in nature.

There you go, Frank. Any questions?

???

Answered that question of yours, didn't I?

You showed very clearly, you have no real interest in this other then to cause grief. And that you have done. Only for others not me. Because your herp science is not my herp science and for that I am very thankful. F

The questions why does this happen, where does it happen, and for what reasons etc etc. then attempts to ascertain the answers, along with proof one way or the other. In my business we look at a scene and ask who did it, where are they, why did they do it, and when it happened. To answer these questions you need proof of each after proving each, you get the answers for the other questions. Instead of saying it doesnt happen, yet it does, why not find out and get answers. And yes aggression between monitors is pretty obvious. You cant miss the injuries, the look on their faces, in their eyes, etc etc.

Not sure I follow you -- what is it we're not doing? Pop over to Brand X and check the archives, last three months, if you want to see what sorts of who, what, when, where, why stuff has been discussed. Really, there's been a lot of it. We biologists might be a whole lot more interested in seeing what happens, whatever it is, than listening to FR would lead you to think. It's testy and short here, demagoguery and lying pisses me off.
Cheers,
SS

demodogery and lying, hahahahahahahahahahahhahahahaha pictures do not lie. But they are subject to interpitation, and we both are allowed that. Only mine is practiced and yours is babbled. F

Hey Frank,

while your talking about other reptiles. I have seen alot of groups of reptiles that live around my house. Where I find one anole I see another, same goes for the geckos, and tree frogs.

I have not seen to many snakes paired up but I do have a corn snake that is always visiting my yard. Typically I see them when they are out foraging though.

There is a gopher tortoise across the street. For two years she was alone in her burrow, the males only came around when roaming to mate. She has had many clutches. This year there is a young juvie that is sharing her burrow. I am not sure if this is her offspring or a newcomer. I thought it was interesting why she would go so long on her own and now has a friend. Any ideas??

My brother has brown basalisks living in his yard. They are always found together rather then seperate. The box turtles around his house are also always in the same area.

not FR but I can answer part of your question.

Male anoles and basilisks have things which clearly distinguish them from females (dewlaps and crests), usually an indication of territoriality and competing for females. A male will try to stake out a territory and try to keep a few females in it. When you see groups of them together, what gender are they? Just curious.

Do the geckos congregate around lights (a good source of insects) or (as in my sister's place in Florida) behind picture frames etc?

I'm clueless when it comes to tortoies, but from my limited understanding only male tortoises are bothered by the presence of other tortoises (male)at certain times of the year

That is sort of my thoughts on it. But i was wondering how Frank might see them. Maybe I am missing something??

As for anoles There are so many around my house it is hard not to see two together. I see males with males, males with females, females with females. I wonder are they there for company? or are they there because they all come out to bask at the sametimes?

The basalisks do live in groups from what I can tell. I never see two males, only see males with females or young. This I have seen during feeding, basking, and not when sharing a resource. They often even run from me in the same grouping rather then splitting off.

As for the torts. I have not looked to see the sex of the new young one across the street. But typically I do find gopher torts. alone and not together. So it was interesting to see this new comer living with her in the same burrow etc. I wonder if it might be one of her offspring? Seeing as you cannot tamper with them it makes it harder for me to figure it all out.

The box turtles I find are not always right next to each other, but they are always in the same area within a few feet from one another. Typically I find them in pairs in his yard.

thanks, Jody

That's what I expected with the basilisks, males trying to keep little harems and trying to keep other males away. Do they multiclutch in Florida?

Going by what I have observed of the torts. and the basalisks yes they do.

As for the other herps here I haven't followed them around enough.

well, that fits in perfectly

Not sure if you noticed I had asked a question to you. Guess your name in the subject might help.

Anyways just wanted to hear your thoughts on it.

Hi Jody, for me it took many years of constant observation and tests to learn.

Let me give you a few ideas for tests. With the introduced geckos, its simple. You mentioned you have colonies. Go into town and catch four or five from another area, then mark them with a dot of nail polish, you may also nip a tiny bit of tail off. (i don't do that) then release them in your colony. See what happens. I could tell you what I have seen happen, but that would ruin the fun. The good thing about these geckos is, they are non-native and mucking up a population is not a bad thing. You should also try this type of tests with introduce anoles. With the anoles, its common to find two males displaying within a foot or two of eachother. Try putting a male for some distance away between them, see what happens. It will simply be lots of fun.

More on geckos, their are species like velvet geckos in Oz that are commonly seen in, not only in a sexual pair, but with several sets of thier offspring. These are found in one small crack and from outside the crack, you can not only see the geckos, but you can see, lots and lots of sheds. Also, if you look on the ground below these cracks, you will find lots and lots of fecal pellets and and sheds. This family thing group condition happens commonly the Egernia depressa and Egernia hosmeri

As for why DK thinks dulaps and such are meaningful to lizards to tell sex is confusing to me. Its my opinion that even without such features, they can tell in a instant.

We have such species as chuckawallas that commonly live in pairs and they are very similiar to monitors, in that, the males have a slightly different color and are slightly larger. With chuckawallas, they are found by finding piles of fecal pellets. Of interest, I took Jefe out and showed him a dwarf type of chuckawalla that does not live in the standard hills and rock outcroppings. They are full grown around a foot(males)

Last spring when Jefe and I went out, we looked for and found lots of Desert iggies. They are similiar in size and form to many of the small monitors and other then diet, live in a very similiar habitat. In a few hours one mourning, we found solitary males, solitary gravid females, and colonies of the whole nine yards stacked knee deep. They were at the base of Cerosote bushes, each bush had three, four, five, individuals, and the bushes were about 3 or so meters apart. Yet the solitary individuals, were hundreds of yards apart. What does all that mean. I personally think its not about being totally social or not being social. I believe they are very social if givin the resources, and if not, resort to living almost entirely solitary lives.

This is what baffles me, they look at a spread out sparse population and call them, not social. Yet, I showed pics of them in pairs, and in pairs commonly, and that totally escapes their ability to understand. Again the whine with the cheese, what bothers me is, they DK and Sam are quick to explain why the groups your seeing are not groups. As if they understand all the rules these creatures live by. Yet in both their cases, they have also avioded showing a strong understanding of captives.

As you know, I simply think a strong understanding produces results, it does not matter if their is wire. F

I believe that from what I have seen here, that some if not all are very social. Now how one describes that or inturprets it thats out of my hands.

I do not believe we all have the same defenitions of social, solitary, etc. Funny Humans LOL

I didn't say the females needed those dewlaps and crests to identify males, I said that they had things that make them look obviously male (to us). Those sorts of things (strong sexual dimorphism) are usually associated with certain breeding strategies was the point I was making. In case of lizards with crests etc that females don't have, it helps them advertise to other males as well as to females.

I don't think female deer need to see a male's antlers to know they are male, but those antlers sure indicate to us that males compete for females and try to get more than one female.

Male and female swans look the same to us, but females can still tell males apart from other females. They don't need crests, antlers or dewlaps (or even brightly coloured males) because they mate for life and the males don't have to compete for females