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What do mice REALLY need to breed??

snakes Jan 11, 2004 05:50 AM

Hi!

I was searching through the forum all night long last night and found a lot of usefull informations about mice breeding setup.
I started to breed mices - but had some accidents with killing babies, probably because this was the first litter from mothers.

Anyway - the question is what do mice really need to breed and not to kill the babies?
Do they need hide boxes, etc?
In harem setup - 1.4 how many hide boxes should they have?

I tried to separate gravid mices to born babies alone, but then it is virtually impossible to reintroduce her to the group again. So I decided to leave them all the time together.
I am just not sure what else to do to make them breeding and keeping babies

Thanks in advance
Lukasz
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________
snakes.pl

Replies (10)

Sonya Jan 11, 2004 09:23 AM

>>Hi!
>>
>>I started to breed mices - but had some accidents with killing babies, probably because this was the first litter from mothers.
>>
>>Anyway - the question is what do mice really need to breed and not to kill the babies?
>>Do they need hide boxes, etc?
>>In harem setup - 1.4 how many hide boxes should they have?

Likely the first time moms would kill them anyway. I found the only times I don't lose a first litter is if the female having it is in with her mom and the group she was born into.
I do give a hide box to each cage/tub. I have 1.6-1.8 groups and randomly toss in a recycled tissue box or mac and cheese box or whatever. Don't know if it cuts down the cannabalizm per se, but they seem contented.
I still see cannabalizm from moms having a litter into a group with pinks or fuzzies already and if the group is FULL then something's got to give.
Big thing too is to leave them the heck alone. Mine get waters filled in the morning by one of my kids and fed and checked at night by me. Only midday intrusions are for feeding off. And high protein cat kibble to groups with a bunch on huge prego girls.
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Sonya

Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

LdyPayne Jan 11, 2004 01:11 PM

Having a few hide boxes is good. The hide boxes can be small cardboard boxes, empty kleenex boxes etc. You can jut a few small holes along the top for ventilation. Or you can use plastic margarine containers with a 'door' cut on one end and a few smaller holes for ventilation along the top. Just make sure there are no sharp corners left when you cut the door etc. Tossing in toilette paper and papertowel tubes into the cage are great as well.

Stress typically is the main reason why mice eat babies. Eliminating all forms of stress will prevent even first time moms from eating their young. I have breed alot of mice, with groups of sisters and stranger females together and never lost a litter. I use alot of hides, an exercise wheel, high protein food mixed (I mix budgee seed mix with mutri-blocks and Purina dog chow (the kind without preservatives or dyes) and a cheap hamster mix).

It is also very important to keep the mice in a low traffic area and to leave them along except to feed and water for about a week, including not cleaning unless the bin is really dirty. Try to wait a couple days after birth if you can't wait a week for cleaning. Typically once the babies are 3 days old they won't get eaten.

A nice sized container is good, such as a 51L sterlite container with part of the lid cut away and replaced with aluminum screen (or hardware cloth). I make wire harnesses for water bottles to hang them off the edge of the tub instead of drilling holes into the side to mount the bottles into. Less chance of escapes.

Sasheena Jan 11, 2004 10:24 PM

I've tried everything from separating the papa mouse away from the colony, to having colonies that are together practically from birth. After two years I'm still experimenting with what works best, but what I know works best so far:

Usually I start with a group of 1.3 to 1.5, occasionally, for my six larger cages I start with 1.10 to 1.12 knowing I'll have some attrition, or that I'll end up separating out momma mice from that group to take to the petstore They pay $0.45 store credit even for pinkies, so sometimes when I have an overload of mice, I just take in five or six nursing momma mice with 18 or so babies each, and wham, I pay for the next couple months mouse food and bedding.

I've found that leaving the male in with the females is absolutely the best way to go about it. If the male dies I wait until the babies are all grown, and if I want to continue the colony, I usually leave a male baby to grow up with the females. MOre often I just feed them off. Right now in the winter with most of my snakes sleeping I tend to take them to the petstore more than anything else.

In my largeest colonies, in the big cages the colonies tend to metamorphose, the original females eventually get worn out and some of the female babies are left in the cage to grow up and replace their mommmas. In the groups that have this ongoing lineage of female babies replacing older females, and later a male baby replacing the papa, are my best long term colonies. Eventually the age level of the mice in the colony is varied, and about one female will pass on every six to eight weeks, in a group of 12 females and one male, it's a nice working solution. These are my fancy mice though, that I'm breeding for fancy characteristics. I tend to have the patience to wait for them to grow up a new male or females as needed and don't mind if they have a month or two without any offspring. The cutest babies go towards further breeding or are sold as pets, the rest go to the snakes, just like the albinos and the black and the brown mice.

As far as cannabalism, I've never really come to pinpoint this with any accuracy... often new mommas, if they don't have an older established momma mouse, will eat their babies. But I also get cannabalism in other certain situations... sometimes it gets too darn hot, and the mice kill more babies than they let live. Another issue I've found that often leads to losing babies that are older than a couple of days is if one of the momma mice is having difficulties in labor... I've had several mice that have ruptured their uterus and were unable to give birth, no matter how hard they struggled to give birth... every contraction would just push the babies into the abdominal cavity... and often in their pain and perhaps instinct (?) they would start massacring fuzzies and even hoppers. I've done a few C-sections on these mice in curiousity, and found it to be a ruptured uterus in all but two cases. In one case it was a herniated uterus, with a dark black mass all twisted up, and in the other case the mouse wasn't even pregnant, but instead had a tumour about the same size as the litter of 20 pinkies I was expecting. When mice are sick, they kill baby mice. Don't ask me why.

To keep my mice the most content, I clean their cages twice a week (Sunday and Wednesday), change their water at that time. I give them 3 to 4 days food with each cage cleaning. Their bedding is 1/2 pine, 1/2 alfalfa hay, with a bit of raw cotton in the winter for them to make warm nests. I feed them "Adult" dog food from Petsmart... dunno what else it's called, but it's their cheapest dog food and the mice love it and cannabalism rises every time I try to switch to another dog food. Along with the dog food they get COB which is a feed mixture of Corn Oats and Barley. I buy the dogfood and feed in 50 pound bags.... a 100 pound mixture of that lasts me about 6 weeks (6 large cages of mice, 25 small cages, 2 ten gallon aquariums, and one large hamster cage all of mice, plus 3 cages of rats, and two cages of gerbils) A bale of hay and ten bags of pine last me about 4 months. The cotton I pick up off the side of the road since Cotton is the major agricultural industry in this rural area. I don't disturb the mice too much during the days I'm not cleaning their cages, except to check on specific mice that have some special need. They produce like crazy. I was doing the math on how much the mice brought me in (not to mention feeding my 50 snakes) and reckon that they brought in about $750 in just selling my surplus to the petstore. Of course they cost about $225 in bedding, and $90 in food over the course of a year also.

Anyway, anybody who read this far probably deserves a medal. I'm done rambling.

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~Sasheena

rudedogsurfrat Jan 11, 2004 10:45 PM

well it is nice to see someone who agrees with this inbreeding thing.
Gosh noone else understands
-----
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boa adults
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boa 2003
0.1 Rubber Boa
0.2 Eastern Hognose Snakes
4.4 Western Hognose Snakes
1.1 Womas
Spadefoot
Black Knobbed Sawback
Northern Diamondback
Florida Redbellied Slider
Western Painted
Southern Painted
1.0 African Hedgehog
1.0 Sulcata
1.1 Leopard tortoises
1 Pleco
2 Silver Dollars
3 Bosemian Rainbows
1 Cory Cat
1 Upside Down Catfish
2.0 Fire Guramis

uhh... I think that is it.

Sasheena Jan 12, 2004 06:35 AM

>>well it is nice to see someone who agrees with this inbreeding thing.
>>Gosh noone else understands

LOL I've researched mouse genetics extensively, and I've infused my mouse colonies with some mice that are 100 generations inbred who have NO deleterious recessive genes. I've used my understanding to create my own variety of super producing mice that are indeed much better (in my mind) than Swiss Websters and ICRs.

Starting from a Swiss Webster and an ICR, I got hybrids of those two types. I crossed them with my fancy mice that had large litters. (larger litters than the Swiss or the ICR). After a number of generations I have a very exciting strain of mouse that works very well for my purposes. They don't have humongous litters but a litter of 20 is not unheard of. They produce scads of milk so their babies grow fast and by the time they are fuzzies they are the size of hoppers in my other strains. They are large bodied mice, docile, never bite, rarely cannabalize, don't run when they get loose (except hoppers, but you can't have everything). They are long lived and continue to have large litters well into their eighth and ninth month. The males when kept in groups of only males rarely fight.

Inbreeding is fine as long as you have an understanding of genetics. If you realize exactly why it CAN be bad, and notice the signs of deleterious genes appearing, you can change your regimen and/or add new bloodlines to the mouse population.

I've had fun with my mice, learning from them and breeding them for exotic colors and coats. My super producers are half albino, half a light gray or a black eyed white color, with some of them being long haired and some being satin. One of my inbred colonies of blue colored mice have started to produce a certain mutation that is rare and sought-after in the fancy mouse world (Dumbo eared). This is undoubtedly due to the third or fourth generation of inbreeding but if all I get is a mutation that is highly desireable, why not?.
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~Sasheena

rudedogsurfrat Jan 12, 2004 03:58 PM

you don't know sirjohn do you?
-----
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boa adults
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boa 2003
0.1 Rubber Boa
0.2 Eastern Hognose Snakes
4.4 Western Hognose Snakes
1.1 Womas
Spadefoot
Black Knobbed Sawback
Northern Diamondback
Florida Redbellied Slider
Western Painted
Southern Painted
1.0 African Hedgehog
1.0 Sulcata
1.1 Leopard tortoises
1 Pleco
2 Silver Dollars
3 Bosemian Rainbows
1 Cory Cat
1 Upside Down Catfish
2.0 Fire Guramis

uhh... I think that is it.

snakes Jan 12, 2004 11:53 AM

Hi!

Wooow - that was really great
I have read it completely, and it's very informative. I think I will use some of your ideas in my mice colonies.

Now I am starting with 3 groups 1.4 mices and I am gaining some practice on this. They started to breed already - and I have learned that taking the mother out is not good idea, because the rest don't want her back.

I really appretiate all your inputs on thi topic
Thanks for all repiles here

Best regards
Lukasz
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________
snakes.pl

rudedogsurfrat Jan 11, 2004 10:39 PM

I'm soooo glad you used the word Gravid. Most people on this forum believe it is only used for herps.
-----
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boa adults
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boa 2003
0.1 Rubber Boa
0.2 Eastern Hognose Snakes
4.4 Western Hognose Snakes
1.1 Womas
Spadefoot
Black Knobbed Sawback
Northern Diamondback
Florida Redbellied Slider
Western Painted
Southern Painted
1.0 African Hedgehog
1.0 Sulcata
1.1 Leopard tortoises
1 Pleco
2 Silver Dollars
3 Bosemian Rainbows
1 Cory Cat
1 Upside Down Catfish
2.0 Fire Guramis

uhh... I think that is it.

snakes Jan 12, 2004 03:26 PM

Hi!

English is not my native language. Probably because of this I get an idea, but don't see the subtle difference betwen this two words so clearly

Best regards

Lukasz
-----
________
snakes.pl

rudedogsurfrat Jan 14, 2004 07:33 PM

OH no please don't take that the wrong way.
I am happy that someone notices the synonymous terms. English is a huge mix of other language and sometimes others don't recognize an appropriate term. Gravid is the latin based word for pregnant.

Rudy
-----
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boa adults
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boa 2003
0.1 Rubber Boa
0.2 Eastern Hognose Snakes
4.4 Western Hognose Snakes
1.1 Womas
Spadefoot
Black Knobbed Sawback
Northern Diamondback
Florida Redbellied Slider
Western Painted
Southern Painted
1.0 African Hedgehog
1.0 Sulcata
1.1 Leopard tortoises
1 Pleco
2 Silver Dollars
3 Bosemian Rainbows
1 Cory Cat
1 Upside Down Catfish
2.0 Fire Guramis

uhh... I think that is it.

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