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if i can ( can I do this on kingsnake / )....

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http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,585036772.00.html
Article

When did great basin rattlesnakes get lumped with western diamondbacks? Thats kind of like calling a rubber boa and a rosy boa the same thing(which has been attempted).

It will be fascinating to see how many Law Enforcement man hours and taxpayer's dollars went into this latest multi state sting operation.

We will probably see a couple of felony convictions along with a string of misdameanor convictions and a few thousand dollars in fines. And I bet hundreds of thousands of taxpayers dollars were spent to accomplish this incredible goal.

Mean while, hundreds of snakes a day are kill on highways and nobody even gives it a second thought.

The latest news articles on the subject are already busy spinning the truth and telling blatant lies.

This latest operation was nothing more than a bunch of law enforcement officials desperately trying to justify their own existence.

How sad.

Funny, I thought protecting the animal species we all love was a fairly Noble profession, but then if people always obeyed the laws instead breaking them, tax payer dollars would not be wasted and wildlife agents would be out of a job, now wouldn't they?!?

Let's stop teaching the young herpers to recklessly disobey laws when we disagree with them, shall we? If you want to help change the laws, great! but in the mean time let's harbor an atmosphere of respect for the rule of law. Lord knows we need it these days!

Big Brother

BIG BUBBA!
I know all about this SH#T. Would you like to bet that the
PUNKING law enforcement did all this to justify their
employment. Over a stupid reptile. It's not even worth
keepindg reps any more. BIG BROTHER always keeping the
snakekeeper down.

OHH YEA,
One more thing TREEHUGGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>Funny, I thought protecting the animal species we all love was a fairly Noble profession,

While that is true, the current (and previous) sting operations don't exactly "protect the animal species we love." I'll give an analogy first and then show how it relates to Operation Slither (the most recent--last weekend) and similar cases.

Suppose a cop gets a tip from someone who has a grudge against me that I was driving 95 mph down the highway. The cop shows up at my door without a warrant, but says something to the effect of "we know what you did" and convinces me to let him in. The cop makes his way to my garage and discovers I have an electric scooter. For some reason, though he is in a law enforcement position, he can't tell the difference between this scooter which can't go over 25mph and a high-powered motorcycle, so he takes it away from me. After a lengthy court battle in which the judge ultimately (and correctly) dismisses the charges against me, I petition for the return of my scooter. When I finally get it back, all that's left is a brake shoe and a mirror.

How does this relate? Fish and Game agents, acting on tips (allegedly from an informant who himself was "busted" in a prior sting operation), paid visits to several herpetoculturists. Among hundreds, if not thousands, of snakes examined, some were questionable (in law enforcement's eyes) in identity and legality; so most, and in some people's cases, ALL snakes were confiscated (even obviously legal specimens).

That's what's happened in Operation Slither. The rest of my analogy pertains to previous operations, such as Rockcut and another CA sting. The charges were dropped (well, in Rockcut some are still pending a hearing, because the law enforcement side doesn't have a solid case YET after all these years), and when the herpetoculturists asked for their animals back, many were returned DEAD (some after only four weeks of being held as evidence). So much for "protecting the animals we love."

but then if people always obeyed the laws instead breaking them, tax payer dollars would not be wasted and wildlife agents would be out of a job, now wouldn't they?!?

This seems reasonable at first glance, but it's the first step of a slippery slope. Why not install government closed-circuit cameras in everyone's home? That way, we could catch whatever people are doing that's illegal. After all, if everyone's obeying the laws, there's nothing to fear, right?

Basically, in reference to my analogy, what has happened is akin to getting arrested for driving 5mph over the speed limit. It MAY turn out that some snakes discovered in homes were illegal to own, but rather than the punishment commensurate with the misdemeanors involved, the defendants in these cases will likely face fines in the thousands of dollars, possible jail time, and of course the loss of hundreds of snakes, many of them Nth-generation captive-bred. The punishment does not fit the crimes (if it did, these people would receive citations and fines), and the means by which the charges have been brought about is questionable (no warrants, and the fact that some animals were GIVEN to the suspects--animals which were PIT tagged to be traceable to their homes).

>>Let's stop teaching the young herpers to recklessly disobey laws when we disagree with them, shall we?

On the contrary, I don't think what the 17 individuals in the most recent case did was reckless. I only know secondhand of a few of those involved, but it sounds like some of the animals were captive-bred, and while legal to own where they lived, the original stock may have been illegally obtained/transported (but GIVEN to them by the informant).

If these 17 are indeed found to have things they shouldn't (some may, some definitely do not but their names were found on the computers of other suspects), give them the appropriate citations and fines, and move on. It certainly doesn't deserve the attention the media has given it--I wouldn't be surprised if PeTA/HSUS were somehow involved as part of their effort to eliminate any captive reptiles (and ultimately, any pets whatsoever).
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Chris,

First off, let me say thank you for taking the time to put your reasonable thoughts and concerns out there to be discussed! All too often people on forums resort to name calling and flaming in a vain attempt to force their opinion down the throat of people they disagree with, and I for one am not going to participate in such a discussion, but you, on the other hand, make some very good points.

Second, I appreciate your use of an analogy because I am going to refrain from making any comments on specific cases, past or present for legal reasons. Having said that, I would like to point out, and I think we can all agree on this, that when it comes to reptiles “In The News”, every thing gets greatly distorted, and the stories that finally make it into the paper or on TV have very little to do with what actually happened.

Now back to the topic. There are three types of cases that are commonly confused. The first is what we’ll call a knock-and-drop case. That is a case where a law enforcement officer gets a tip that a crime has been committed. He then uses his best judgment, which is subject to his own biases and faults as a human, to determine the credibility and importance of the information (a cop is not going to knock on your door because your neighbor said you were speeding for example.). If the information he determines to be sufficient to warrant further investigation, he goes to the site of suspected activity, knocks on the door and engages the person in a discussion about the suspected crime. More often than not, the person admits they did something wrong, and the case is made. Usually these people get in the least amount of trouble BTW.

The second type of case is a buy-bust where the officer uses information from a tip off and/or other sources to determine that a particular person or group of people are buying or selling some illegal animals. The officer poses as a buyer/seller, makes the deal and the case is made (watch almost any crime drama about drugs, and you’ll get the idea). These folks generally get in a whole lot more trouble because it is a commercial crime, not a crime of possession as in the previous case.

The third type of case is a sting operation. Sting operations are well planned out investigations that take place over extended periods of time (often years) where an undercover agent gathers information on the criminal activity by interacting with the suspects in some capacity. Once enough incriminating information is gathered, search and arrest warrants are obtained and the case is made. If you are or have been the subject of a criminal sting operation such as this, you will know it! First off, these kinds of operations are expensive, so they generally focus on the big fish and deal with people suspected of committing major or frequent crimes. If you find yourself in this kind of trouble, you are going to be paying a lawyer a lot of money and probably facing some serous jail time! We have all heard about these kinds of cases in the herp world, and many people went to prison as a result of such sting operations. Most law enforcement cases are not this cut and dry, and don’t fall neatly into one type, but if a sting operation occurs, you can be fairly certain that people are going to jail. Where this current case falls in that continuum is up to you to decide. I just wanted to set the stage for further discussion.

Now, let’s go back to your nitrous powered (just kidding) scooter example. The cop that made what I would call a knock-and-drop case is a standard beat cop who has to enforce all of the laws, not just a particular set. In short, he has to know a little bit about a lot of subjects to do his job effectively. Some cops know a little bit more about a particular area than another, so they help each other out as best they can to get the job done, and mistakes happen because assistance is not available, but as a general rule, the system works. How is the relevant you ask? Lets look at a Game Warden as an example here. A Game Warden has to enforce duck hunting regulations, which requires a knowledge of duck identification in flight, dear hunting, which requires a knowledge of the hunting laws and firearm laws, fishing regulations for both ocean and fresh water, which requires knowledge of fish identification-fishing gear types-boating laws, trapping regulations, which requires knowledge of trap types and fur bearing mammal identification, migratory bird laws, which requires knowledge of bird species, falconry, which requires raptor identification and familiarity with falconry gear requirements, non-point source pollution laws (this one surprises people, but in most states the Game Warden is the guy who busts the person who pours motor oil down the storm drain), which requires knowledge of pollution laws, commercial fishing laws, which require knowledge of critters like shrimp-mussels-clams-etc. and the gear to catch them, and then on top of all that they have to be able to identify every species of frog, toad, lizard, snake, gator, turtle etc. from around the world on sight! I think I have shown that this is not a reasonable expectation, and yes, mistakes happen, but Game Wardens are people too!

Let’s go back to the cop who was looking at the scooter in the garage. He may not have been able to tell the difference between a motorcycle and a scooter, but he can probably tell you the difference between a 1999 Ford F-150 and a F-250 from a hundred yards away! When a cop finds himself in a situation where he needs some expertise other than he has, he should get someone to help him decipher between the two wheeled bike like vehicles, but some times no one is available, so he has to make a judgment call. Is the suspect being evasive about the questions the cop’s asking? If so why? In such a situation, I would imagine that the cop would not mind a little education from the suspect. A pleasant conversation where information is being shared goes a long way toward establishing someone’s credibility. On the other hand, a person who tells the cop he is an idiot and can’t tell a bike from a tricycle will probably find him self in cuffs or have his scooter taken away, especially if there is even a possibility that the cops suspicions are true. All a cop needs is probable cause to take the scooter, and a scooter painted with racing stripes, flames and an odd looking over sized motor is all the officer needs to confiscate the scooter.

Now to take this one step further, if a cop gains access to a garage full of scooters on a tip that the guy is running a chop shop out of his garage, and the license plates on two of the scooters come back as stolen. That cop is going to put the suspect in cuffs and confiscate all of the scooters, motorcycles, and possibility even the cars before he gets done and check to see if they are also stolen at a later time. Then, if the suspect tells the cop he is an idiot who can’t tell the difference between a moped and tricycle, the cop is probably going to visit a Judge to obtain a search warrant for the rest of the house! Mean while, back at the jailhouse, the suspect is going to be screaming about the cop’s incompetence to any one who will listen. The truth is irrelevant because human nature being what it is predisposes us to believe our buddy, the “victim of a police state”, over an admittedly stupid cop, despite the fact that two stolen scooters were found in the garage. That’s like some guy, who just got busted wearing a ski mask and carrying a gun saying “Honest officer, I already had two hundred dollars in my pocket before I robbed the liquor store, so you can’t take that!” “In for a penny, in for a pound”, or “if you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime!” Both of these sayings apply here, but for heavens sake, if you get busted for breaking the law, stop complaining about having your brothers 10-speed taken when you had two stolen scooters parked in your garage!

Now, the dead animal in custody issue. This is a terrible thing, which does unfortunately happen, and it is something that I am sure bothers many people in wildlife law enforcement, allot! Lets suppose that you are the Game Warden and you get a call to some apartment because the neighbor is complaining about animal noises coming from the suspects apartment 24 hours a day. You knock on the door, it opens and you see a Mt. lion cub jumping off the sofa. You slap the cuffs on the guy, and you have to confiscate the animal as evidence. Now what are you going to do with a 40 pound Mt. lion cub? The local animal shelter says they don’t have the facilities or expertise to house that kind of animal. The local zoo has several on display, but they don’t have a secure off exhibit area (a chain of custody has to be maintained on all evidence, so the animal has to be placed in a secure location) available at the time, and they don’t have the money in their budget to pay for the food the animal needs. The taxpayers of the state you work for have said no to a state secure wildlife evidence housing facility, so what do you do? You can’t give the animal to a private person to care for who may have a whole lot more experience than you do with taking care of wildlife, because it is illegal to posses the animal, and giving the animal to a private person would break the chain of custody of the evidence that you have to maintain, or the guilty guy goes free. More often than not, your going to have to take the Mt. lion back to you home or office and care for the animal the best you can even though you may have never had so much as a pet house cat in your entire life! You know this is going to be difficult because you still have that confiscated croc in your bath tub from the case that has been pending for over a year now, and you have a cage full of parrots on the dinning room table from a bust last week, and you’re sure your wife is going to threaten to throw you out of the house for bringing home another charge. Further, you now have to pay for all the food, housing and any veterinary bills out of your own pocket because the Chief Warden won’t reimburse you because he is a pencil pusher who is more concerned about how frequently the oil gets changed in your truck than he is about the well being of Mt. lion from some minor case. And after all that, the Mt. lion gets sick and dies because you did not know that he needed a particular vitamin added to his water when his gums turned a little more pink than usual. So you cry your self to sleep every night for a week because your best wasn’t good enough, and the cute little critter died! The only way you can push on with you job is by remembering that what you are really trying to do is protect all the Mt. lions out in the wild who are threatened with extinction because some people want to hunt them and/or keep them illegally as pets. You can take some additional comfort in the fact that the little Mt. lion you tried to care for was never going to be able to be released back into the wild any way because it had been exposed to the suspects pet house cat that had some communicable liver disease, but it still hurts! The system ain’t perfect! Some times I would even have to say it sucks! If this problem bothers you as much as it does me, then work at getting some changes to the laws in your state to force the various agencies to build and fund wildlife care facilities, but don’t blame the guys trying to do the best they can with little to no help what so ever. Trust me, it bothers them a whole lot more than it bothers you!!

There was a point I was trying to get at with my comment about ‘if nobody breaks the law we won’t need cops’ statement. I was not suggesting in any way that everyone must have cameras installed into their homes to prevent crime. What I was getting at is that we all bear personal responsibility for our own actions. Yes, we can decide to break the law, but don’t blame the cop who busts you for having stolen scooters in your garage or for your having made a bad decision. He didn’t put the scooters there, you did. You made the conscious choice to break the law so don’t be surprised when you get busted. For some reason there are a lot of people in the herp community that think it is their personal right to break the law because they know better than the cops! Well guess what, that is exactly the same thing a bank robber says too! You mentioned the “slippery slope” argument. You’re right, there is a slippery slope here, and a vocal portion of the herp community is adding grease to that very slope for all the young herpers out there hanging on our every word. People on this forum make it sound like it is no big deal to break the law because the cops are always stupid and you won’t get caught, so the next time a kid goes out herp hunting he finds some rare species. He thinks to himself, “should I take this critter home with me or not? All cops are dumb and all the other herpers are doing it, so why not?” The next thing you know that same kid is now poaching and selling herps so he can afford to pay for the care of his growing collection of endangered herps. Every single herper out there, who has been in this hobby for more than a couple of years, can name someone who started out that way. I know I can name several.

We, as a ‘village’ of herpers, need to take responsibility for helping to rase all the young herpers out there, and the biggest kid we have to rase is our own image. When people outside this little ‘village’ of ours see all the whackos within owning 200 truly strange and somewhat disturbing creatures as pets in their basement, they think we’re nuts. Then they see in the paper or on TV that these same whackos are getting busted for illegally keeping something they perceive as dangerous and for illegally smuggling outrageously expensive endangered animals into the country for a profit. Should it surprise any of us that we now have a real PR problem? It doesn’t matter what the truth is, people believe what they see and hear, so they are willing to go along with restrictive laws to keep these whackos from endangering society with their strange pets. I know that the silent majority of herpers out there are good law-abiding people who truly love their animals and don’t break the law, but their silence is condoning the atmosphere of illegal bravado that is rampant in the herp community. What we, the herping community, need to do is take personal responsibility for our actions and stop tolerating the vocal lawbreakers who are going to ruin this hobby for all of us!

The illegal trafficking in wildlife, the majority of which is herps BTW, is now second only to drugs in the United States. Let me put this another way, criminals who smuggle guns into this country are making less money than criminals who smuggle herps! Is there any wonder why we have a PR problem and why people are trying to shut us down with restrictive laws? And just how long do you think this trend is going to last before “Big Brother” catches on and really starts enforcing the law? It is up to each one of us to take a hard look at what we are doing, what we say and what we are willing to tolerate within our community. If you agree with me, please speak up. Our future as a hobby depends on it!

Yep, Big Brother is watching!

"The illegal trafficking in wildlife, the majority of which is herps BTW, is now second only to drugs in the United States. Let me put this another way, criminals who smuggle guns into this country are making less money than criminals who smuggle herps! Is there any wonder why we have a PR problem and why people are trying to shut us down with restrictive laws?"

Where did you see data suggesting that herps are the majority of illegal wildlife trade? Out here in Calif, abalone poaching and commercial trafficking is huge. The problem with this kind of data, is that the live herp trade gets lumped in with the trade in skins and other parts. This greatly distorts the contribution of illegal live herps in the whole of wildlife trafficking.
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

Howdy Rick,
First, I should point out that I was referring to total dollar value, as is indicated in my example, but in rereading my post I realized that I failed to put dollar value into the first sentence. Having said that…

Here are a couple of quotes that should answer your question:
“Nearly half- 47 percent-of all live animal specimens sized were reptiles, reflecting their popularity as exotic pets and the ease of transporting them;” From Switching Channels: Wildlife Trade Routes, TRAFFIC Report 2002

” However, the USA is also a central player in the trade of many exotic species. It is one of the world's largest traders of live reptiles -- from African rock pythons to Vietnamese wood turtles. A TRAFFIC North America report on the role of the US in the world live reptile trade revealed that more than 2.5 million live reptiles were imported in 1995, and in 1996 the US exported or re-exported 9.5 million reptiles, primarily to Europe and East Asia. It urged for research to be stepped up and action taken to address a trade that is impacting some of the world's wild reptile populations.” From the TRAFFIC North America website

You might also find the Main Wildlife Commodities in Trade section of the website also very informative.
http://www.traffic.org/

This is a good article that outlines the overall reptile smuggling problem:
http://www.eces.org/articles/000651.php

However, a summary of the DEFINITIVE REPORT on The US Role in the International Live Reptile Trade can be found at:
http://www.traffic.org/bulletin/archive/january99/livereptile.html
From that site you can get the information for ordering a copy of the complete report.

I think that should have more than answered your question, but some folks might not want to down load all these web pages, so I have included the following short article, which can also be found at the TRAFFIC web site.

BigBrother

Explosive Growth in US Live Reptile
Trade Raises Conservation Fears
Report Stresses Increased Monitoring,
Research of Trade Threat to Wild Species
Washington -- A new report from TRAFFIC North America, the wildlife trade monitoring program of WWF and IUCN, finds that the USA is the world's largest trader of live reptiles -- from African rock pythons to Vietnamese wood turtles -- and recommends significant action to address the potential effects on native and endangered species.
Between 1983 and 1992, US trade in live reptiles increased nearly twentyfold, and jumped from 28 percent to 82 percent of the global market, based on a review of 70 threatened species. More than 2.5 million live reptiles were imported in 1995, and in 1996 the USA exported or reexported 9.5 million reptiles, primarily to Europe and East Asia. The reptile trade principally supplies the pet industry, as well as a growing food market.
"It's clear that the USA is a dominant player in this rapidly expanding market, and with that growth comes new concerns and new responsibilities for American consumers and dealers," said study author Craig Hoover of TRAFFIC North America. "We need to step up research and take action to address fears that the trade is impacting some of the world's wild reptile populations."
The top species in US import trade involves a single species: Latin America’s green iguana, which made up more than 45 percent of the total US trade in 1995. Likewise, the US export/reexport trade of 8-10 million animals is dominated by North America’s red-eared slider turtle. Other heavily traded species include ball pythons, savanna monitor lizards and map turtles.
The growth in the reptile trade could include many factors such as an increase in the availability and number of species; improved breeding techniques; increased restrictions on other wildlife trade for pets; an ever-increasing demand for reptiles as food, primarily in East Asia; and, changing lifestyles such as the move to smaller houses that make reptiles more desirable than other pets.
"It may simply be an increased popularity, owed to Jurassic Park and other pop culture events, that has made these present day dinosaurs the pet of the 1990s," Hoover said. "The Internet is rife with dealers' price lists offering everything from Cuban crocodiles to Satanic leaf-tailed geckos to albino monocle cobras."
Illegal trade appears to be on an upswing also, the report notes, as demand for rare species drives prices upward, increasing the temptation to smuggle reptiles. The profit potential is high, there is a relatively low risk of being caught, and even when caught, penalties are often small.
The report recommends several actions to help ensure that the booming trade is conducted sustainably and not to the detriment of the world's wild reptile populations:
· Increase emphasis on monitoring and protection of North American species found in trade, with special attention to turtles;
· Investigate commercial captive breeding, farming and ranching operations around the world, but especially in the USA, to determine their productivity and assess their impact on wild populations;
· Analyze the threat posed by exotic species introductions and identify any legislative gaps in the USA’s ability to deal with these potential threats to native fauna;
· Review legislation, assessing effectiveness of implementation and enforcement, for identified "hot spots" where reptile species continue to be threatened by trade, and recommend improvements or pursue trade bans.
TRAFFIC USA

In previous herp "sting" operations, the conviction rate was horribly low.

For example, Operation Rock Cut yeilded over 200 violations and only 4 guilty verdicts for Class C misdemeanor tickets (on herp-related offenses - I think Rock Cut did catch one person in possession of narcotics) which were not contested.

Operation King Rosy in CA also yeilded very few convictions, and resulted in several successful Civil Rights Lawsuits against CA F&G, costing the taxpayers far more money. It also resulted in the law itself being tossed out.

Operation Slither/Indiana was similarly unsuccessful at actually yeilding convictions.

If "Regular Law Enforcement" (FBI, state police, city police, etc) were so unsuccessful at making arrests and getting convictions, one would think that people's job security would be brought into question. At least it has in Dallas with their recent "fake drug" sting.

Troy

Troy,
As I said before, I will not comment on particular cases for legal reasons, but please re-read my post explaining the different types of criminal investigations.
The following would be examples of real “Sting” operations:
http://www.traffic.org/bulletin/archive/january99/seizures-americas.html
http://news.fws.gov/NewsReleases/R4/3152634A-858D-4DDB-843D634526DBE6E4.html
http://www.traffic.org/news/anson.html
http://www.conservation.mo.gov/news/out/1996/out07056.html

As you can see, things get a whole lot more serous when you start buying and selling illegal wildlife in large quantities. Yes there are problems with the system, but harpers are in a lousy position to complain about them if you are in possession of illegal animals. Remember the stolen scooter example.

Further, I should point out that the F&WS Annual Violation Statistics demonstrate the number of violators is going down, but the Prison Terms and Civil Penalties are going WAY UP!
1999 2000 2001
Violations 10,232 9,872 8,737
Fines $2,175,868 $5,547,683 $13,014,323
Prison (Yrs) 22 25 41
Probation (Yrs) 255 368 503
Civil Penalties $213,535 $1,122,090 $830,758
Data from the USF&WS, Division of Law Enforcement, Annual Report FY 2001 (the FY 2002 report is not out yet), which can be found on the F&WS web page.

Further, you can see from the Indictment to Conviction success rate (80% for 2000 and 87% for 2001) of the US Department of Justice’s Environmental and Natural Resources Division, that they are also improving and taking wildlife crime more seriously these days. You can go to their web site under Press Releases and find some 50 reports on reptile smuggling convictions.

So Troy, I think you are the one who is demonstrating your lack of knowledge.
You may not like the message, but don’t shoot the messenger!

And one last thing, the statute of limitations is 3-7 years depending on the state the suspect is charged in, and depending on if the charges are filled in State or Federal Court. If I was picked up in a ‘Drag-Net’, I would be looking over my shoulder for quite a while.

As I said before, how long do you think the herp community is going to be allowed to run amuck with this Outlaw Bravado before the roof falls in? It is time to clean house!

Big Brother

I had a beautiful, civil response almost line-by-line to your post (which I appreciated), but it took so long to type, kingsnake timed out and I lost it all!

Basically, I could sum up by saying that I agree with your last paragraph in concept, but not in how it's actually carried out (law enforcement); that law enforcement should stick to strictly enforcing laws as they're written (vague as they are, in which case the benefit of the doubt should go to the suspect, i.e. innocent until proven guilty), not as how they interpret them (especially if they are on a crusade against use of natural resources).

I had a WHOLE lot more to expand upon but I am too frustrated at my recent post loss to type it all out again!
-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Chris,
I’m sorry you lost all your thoughts! I enjoy debating with you because you’re willing to try and see things from other person’s perspective, and I appreciate that. Now, if we could just get Politicians to do that… I digress.

I do want to make a couple of comments on what you have said though.

First, “Innocent Until Proven Guilty” only applies in a court of law. The newspapers use the obligatory term ‘Suspect’, but when have you ever seen an article about a herp keeper being acquitted? It isn’t a sexy story, so it goes in the circular file. News papers and TV news are all about what sells, and when your talking about a bunch of whacko herp keepers with illegal animals and potentially dangerous animals being confiscated by the cops, that sells papers…the perception of guilt wins. This is just one more of many reasons why we herpers need to police our own ranks. If we don’t, the public will be successful in restricting herp ownership. Further, most cops are exposed to bad guys all the time, so their perception is often “Guilty Until Proven Innocent”. This is not the way it is suppose to be, but when your ‘Up to your arse in alligators, it is difficult to remember the original objective was to drain the swamp.” Innocent Until Proven Guilty is a legal term that only applies after you have been formally charged with a crime. Up to the point of charging, you should expect most people, which unfortunately also include many cops, to think you’re guilty. It’s not fair, but it is reality.

Second, laws in the United States are not as fixed as most people think, which is why there are constant debates about what constitutes a ‘legal’ Search Warrant, how much alcohol in the blood constitutes impairment when driving, the ubiquitous abortion debate, how much land must be set aside when new development projects are proposed, on and on, and on. Further, laws are interpreted by the Judge and in many cases the Jury each time a case comes to court. The down side is that lawyers make a lot of money off of you and I treading in the gray area between right and wrong. The up side is that laws in the US are malleable to allow for a changing world and changing political times. To win the race you have to change public and law enforcement perspectives about herpers, or we’re going to loose.
This is why I think one of the primary goals of all herp clubs/society’s should be getting to know your local Game Warden and Federal Special Agent. Communication between people is always the best way to break down false impressions, and it can even foster an atmosphere of cooperation. Invite your local Game Warden to speak about herp laws at your next club meeting. Fishermen, duck hunters and bird watchers have been doing this for years, and look at the relationships they have fostered. Have a selection of well cared for (and legal) herps on display for him/her to see at the meeting, which shows your good intentions and will invite discussion. Treat him/her with respect, ask lots of questions about their job in general to make the Warden feel more comfortable and above all keep the meeting friendly! If some one in the club stands up and demands to know why legal animals were taken in that stupid raid last month, you have just lost any possibility of making a good impression, so make sure everyone in the club is on their best behavior and checks their attitude at the door. Approach the meeting with the intent to learn more about the laws governing herps in your local area, and to learn about what the job of a Game Warden really is. Keeping an open mind is the first step toward a better understanding of the problem, and knowing how the first line of enforcement, the Warden, interprets the laws is the first step toward avoiding trouble. Allow the Warden to say, “I don’t know”, or “I’ll look into that” without making him/her feel stupid or threatened i.e. don’t back them into a corner. Designate someone in your group with PR skills to act as a mediator to avoid any confrontations, and be a designated contact point for the Warden to pass along information at a later date. Send the Warden a complimentary copy of you clubs newsletter to keep them thinking about the positive things herpers do. If nothing else, the Wardens ego will require him/her to review the herp laws to prepare for the talk. Then, the next time the Warden finds him/herself facing a decision in the field, the Warden will be well acquainted with the laws and much more apt to give the herper the benefit of the doubt. You might even find that the Warden will come around to appreciate herps more and come to your meetings on occasion to learn more about them, and you might even get a call from the Warden asking for your advise taking care of a confiscated herp. Taking a proactive approach to any problem is always better than sitting back and belly aching about a problem.

Big Brother

I'm speaking up as you requested. What would you have us do to help protect our interests? While I highly condone the keeping of herps as pets, I will just as quickly condemn the "herper" who decides that he is above the law. I live in Utah and would love nothing more than to collect a few native snakes for breeding projects. However, I would never jeapordize my hobby, my reputation, or the future of this hobby to do so. I think they call this responsibility.
I would love nothing more than to see a movement begun by herpers who honestly have the best intrests of the community (not just herpers - everyone) at heart. You and I know that a life with herps is more fullfilling than one without. We have all tried, some with success, to "convert" those who would disdain the keeping of "cold-blooded" animals. All we need to do is EDUCATE those around us in the community to the acceptability of non-traditional pets. But how do you suggest we start this?
I would love to hear more of what you and others have to say on the subject. This is as good a place to start as any.

Neil

"Converting the world one snake at a time."

Neil,
In my opinion, you have just taken the biggest step! We all need to tell fellow members of community that we are not going to tolerate illegal activity. Breaking the law only threatens the future of our hobby, and we as a community will not stand for a few people ruining it for the rest of us.
I think the second step is education. We need to educate the public about herps, which many clubs already do, but we can’t stop there. We need to educate the Game Wardens (see post above for my suggestions on that topic), the News Reporters, Pet Store owners/employees and even our selves. Before you can hope to change people’s perspectives, you need to look at their concerns with an open mind, and see where they are coming from. Everyone has an opinion on a subject. If you ask the question, “where did this person get their perception from?” You will find out a lot about the problem. In my opinion HSUS is largely attacking the irresponsibility of Animal Dealers and Pet Stores that sell animals to inexperienced people and for giving them wrong information about the care requirements of the animals. Just look at the number of rescue arms of our local herp clubs that are filled to the brim with calcium deficient iguanas, over sized pythons the owner could no longer handle, and turtles with shell rot due to improper housing. Let’s face it, improper housing is the primary reason for the salmonella scare, and look what damage that has done to the public’s perception of herps.
So what do we do to take the second step? Determine, from an open perspective, what the problems are, and try to correct them. Educate your self on the critics perspective, and resolve any reasonable concerns they may have. Put together FREE animal care sheets and ask the local Pet Stores to hand them out before they sell herps to people. Develop “recommended starter herps” hand out sheet and encourage the shop owner to stock those animals instead of baby Nile monitors or baby Burmese pythons. Remember, a kid who brings home a problem animal will only turn their parents against herps, and they inturn support restrictive laws. Include a list of the basic equipment the person will need to properly care for the animal on each care sheet, and make sure that you state somewhere at the top of the sheet in BOLD LETTERS the relative difficulty of keeping this animal. For example, the top of a chameleon care sheet might say RECOMMENDED FOR EXPERIENCED KEEPERS ONLY, or the top of a Burmese python care sheet would say, THIS ANIMAL GROWS TO A LARGE SIZE, FAST AND REQUIRES AN EXPERIENCED HANDELER WHEN LARGE, or the top of a bearded dragon sheet might say GOOD STARTER PET REPTILE. Have someone in the club regularly check with the store and make sure their stock of care sheets is replenished, and develop a relationship with the employees at the same time so you can answer any questions they may have. On the care sheet, include a coupon for a FREE 1st years membership in the club for people who buy herps. In short, promote “responsibility” in pet ownership.
Many herp clubs sponsor reptile ‘fairs’, aimed at public education. That’s great, but take it to the next level. Put together a press kit that states “Reptile Enthusiasts Promote Responsible Pet Ownership” as the headline. In the kit include a Press Release that clearly outlines what your trying to accomplish, include four Press Passes for the event (doesn’t matter if you charge for your event or not, the press likes to be coddled and they’ll serve as reminders), include a contact phone number and Email address so members of the press tight on time can ask questions before and after the event. Send copies of the kit to all the local news organizations several days in advance of you event to give them time to fit your event into your busy schedule. Set up a press area and stock it with knowledgeable people to answer questions and really excellent large specimens that show-up well in photos. Make sure that you have kids in you club helping to ‘watch’ the animals in the press area. A photo in the paper of a good-looking healthy snake wrapped around a smiling child with an attentive adult right behind them is the best way to change public perception. Finally, make sure that your fair promotes “Responsible Pet Ownership” in every way. Give out the care sheets and recommended beginning herp list you developed for the pet stores and pass out flyers on local herp laws. Have a booth in you fair dedicated to letting the public know that your against people owning 10 foot crocodiles and smuggled or endangered animals in your club. This will go a long way toward changing public opinion, and you’ll have fun in the process too. Remember, “sharing is caring”, and it helps to shut down your critics!
In my opinion, the third step is much harder. Each one of us needs to ask the question, why? Why do I want to keep herps? Why do I need to keep as many as I do? Why do I want to keep the rarest of the rare? Why do I need to make money off of my hobby? Why do I buy wild caught herps? Why do I collect wild herps? Responsible pet ownership begins at home, and the questions above should force each of us to evaluate our real motives in keeping herps. For some of us, answering these questions honestly might be a real eye opener. For others, it will reaffirm our passion for public education. My recommendation is that we all ask ourselves all the above questions, all the time. Remember the “slippery slope” argument.
Big Brother

I realize this may sound a bit trivial, but I couldn't figure this one out.
How does the cop without a warrant "find his way" into your garage? If you let him in without a warrant, you have no one to blame but yourself.
Bill

I thought the mission of F&G and FW was to manage animals within the state or country for the benefit of the PEOPLE, ex. fishing
and hunting. My question is why can't F&W and FW manage this for the benefit of the people to use. Why does everthing have to be protected, is it job security. I know if a builder wants to build homes on prime land for reptiles it doesn't seem to stop the development of that land, ex. Arizona gilas Dell Web
developments. I think they have destroyed prime habit?????????.
How much protection do these amimals need, maybe as much as the
moutain lions in CA. do before people start getting eaten by them then we will relize that maybe the enviromentalists have gone to far, and persons life vs a lions life is more important.

Keith,

I think the best way to answer this question is to look at the history of the conservation movement in the United States. Way back in the 1700’s people came to the US to start new lives. Why? They came for various personal or economic reasons, but mainly because Europe was a very crowed place and offered little chance for changing your station in life. The population was growing rapidly and industry was on the rise. Blacksmithing in particular seemed to have a never-ending hunger for coal, so forest after forest was leveled to make coal for the forge. The few forests remaining were set aside as “Royal Hunting Reserves”, and people caught taking the King’s sport were delbt with harshly. Going to the new world meant you nolonger had the King looking over your shoulder, you had a much land and game as you wanted and you could change your destiny. These are the ideals under which the US was founded. The problem was people thought, much as many people still do today, that the resources were endless. If you need more land, move west and take it, which was the underlying theme driving “manifest destiny”. With industrialization came the need for more raw materials to supply the factories. Local resources were over exploited quickly, so faster transportation routes, such as roads and rail, became necessary to deliver raw materials to the factories in the North East. This was fine, and promoted economic growth until we reached the west coast and growth was no longer possible. The Anglo-European population of the US continued to grow rapidly, which required more and more resources (this was much to the detriment of the native peoples and the environment). A few people realized that, like in Europe, you can only grow for so long before there is nothing left of the natural land and people are shoulder to shoulder.
This brings us to the fathers of the modern conservation movement who realized that the Earth was a finite place and that resources were not infinite. The three fathers John Muir, Gifford Pinchot, and Aldo Leopold represent three different ethical views on conservation of the natural world.
Muir, who capitalized on the earlier writings of Ralph Waldo Emmerson and Henry David Thoreau, believed that communion with nature brought people closer to God. Thus, he believed that it was more noble to leave wild places untouched as temples for men to commune with God than it was to cut them down for timber or graze cattle on. Muir wrote:
“Why should man value himself as more than a small part of the one great unit of creation? And what creature of all that the Lord has taken the pains to make is not essential to the completeness of that unit—the cosmos? The universe would be incomplete without the smallest transmicroscopic creature that dwells beyond our conceitful eyes and knowledge.” (Muir, 1916)
This view ultimately led to the creation of Yosemite National Park, the National Park System and the Department of Interior, of which the US F&WS is a part.
Pinchot, on the other hand, believed that nature consisted solely of natural resources that should be used to provide the greatest good for the greatest number of people for the greatest period of time. Pinchot stressed a dichotomy between people and nature “…there are just two things on this material earth—people and natural resources.” This view is the basis for the concept of “Multiple Use” that Pinchot used to found the US Forrest Service and ultimately led to the ideology behind the US Department of Agriculture.
Muir and Pinchot had very different views about how natural resources should be used, but they both advocated conservation for the benefit of man. Aldo Leopold, however, had a profoundly different perspective from Muir and Pinchot because he believed in the ‘intrinsic value’ of nature. That is to say, species and whole ecosystems have a value of their own beyond the needs of man. Two of my favorite quotes from Leopold that outline his position in manor that is still applicable today are:
“The land ethic simply enlarges the boundaries of the community to include soils, waters, plants, and animals, or collectively: the land.
This sounds simple: do we not already sing our love for and obligation to the land of the free and the home of the brave? Yes, but just what and whom do we love? Certainly not the soil, which we are sending helter-skelter downriver. Certainly not the waters, which we assume have no function except to turn turbines, float barges, and carry off sewage. Certainly not the plants, of which we exterminate whole communities without batting an eye. Certainly not the animals, of which we have already extirpated many of the largest and most beautiful species. A land ethic of course cannot prevent the alteration, management, and use of these 'resources,' but it does affirm their right to continued existence, and, at least in spots, their continued existence in a natural state.” (Leopold, 1948, A Sand County Almanac)
“Conservation is a state of harmony between men and land. By land is meant all of the things on, over, or in the earth. Harmony with land is like harmony with a friend; you cannot cherish his right hand and chop off his left. That is to say, you cannot love game and hate predators; you cannot conserve the waters and waste the ranges; you cannot build the forest and mine the farm. The land is one organism. Its parts, like our own parts, compete with each other and co-operate with each other. The competitions are as much a part of the inner workings as the co-operations. You can regulate them--cautiously--but not abolish them.
The outstanding scientific discovery of the twentieth century is not television, or radio, but rather the complexity of the land organism. Only those who know the most about it can appreciate how little we know about it. The last word in ignorance is the man who says of an animal or plant: "What good is it?" If the land mechanism as a whole is good, then every part is good, whether we understand it or not. If the biota, in the course of aeons, has built something we like but do not understand, then who but a fool would discard seemingly useless parts? To keep every cog and wheel is the first precaution of intelligent tinkering.” (Leopold, 1953, Round River)
I think by now it should be obvious that an answer to your question depends on your perspective of the interaction between the environment and man. As I pointed out, the F&WS was founded under the ideology of pure preservation. Most state Game and Fish Departments were founded on Phichot’s perspective of resources for the good of man. And most scientists subscribe to Leopold’s more enlightened ‘intrinsic value’ approach (guess which view I prescribe to?). Environmentalists, unfortunately, remain largely a confused mix between the viewpoints of Muir and Leopold (You may remember that Muir founded the Sierra Club). The result, every time there is a discussion about the environment, people approach the problem from completely different perspectives. The obvious result is an argument about the best way to resolve the environmental issue. The real problem is not an environmental one, but rather a difference in the conservation ethic of the people involved. Thus, I could argue your question from a number of perspectives, but I personally think that we need to discuss the underlying problem as a society before we are going to come to any real conclusions as how best to handle environmental problems.
However, and this is a big one, we as a species DO NOT HAVE MUCH TIME! Up until about the 1500’s the human population of the Earth varied quite a bit but stayed well below 1 billion people. By 1930 the human population of the Earth reached 2 billion people and we have been growing exponentially ever since! Today, there are about 6.3 BILLION people on the planet, and it is estimated that there will be about 9 BILLION people on the planet by 2050 (the old prediction was for 10 billion, but the new predictions take into account the likely deaths resulting from AIDS in Africa). If you understand that the Earth is essentially a closed system with limited resources, it should be very obvious that we as a species are facing some real tough problems ahead. Can we survive without the tropical rainforests? Can we survive, particularly people living along the coasts, if the polar ice caps melt thus razing sea level? Can we survive if the ecosystem and food webs collapse because we killed all the top predators such as grizzlies and Mt. lions? The answer is maybe, but that’s not the kind of world I want to leave for my children and grandchildren. It’s time to shape-up or ship-out, and there ain’t a boat leaving!

Big Brother

Great a freaking history lesson.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

George Santayana 1863-1952

AMEN!

Just remember, the Game Warden has nothing to loose by having a bad impression of herpers, but herpers sure do!
BB

All valid points, so herpers need to clean up our act, and stop giving HSUS and PETA leverage. If the legit concerns are being addressed, it makes it that much harder for them to make noise.
BB

the part about " we herpers need to clean up our act ". Because we are lumped in together by many, MANY general population. Meaning that the guy down the road keeping a copperhead from his home state and it gets lose.......the people in that apartment complex got caught with several snakes ( say corn snakes ) and the other tenants and several tenants wants them out because they are definitely afraid of snakes ( or even better insert pythons here ).......the kid went walking down the street with his boa wrapped around his neck and caused a older person to have an panic attack or even a heart attack.......the pet store that sold a kid the garter sanke and the kid came down with a serious case of salmonela.....These have all been reported to happen just in my previous big city residents. These all made headlines in the media plus some on the television news. So with a LOT of people keeping herps and not even aware that what they are doing is wrong and with NO idea of any laws or whatever, the act of cleaning ourselves up is totally out of the question since these folks don't know anything about the hobby. We can't go on the idea that the non-knowledgable even knows....so how much does this atribute to the what the agencies want to do ?

Chambo

Chambo,

I’m not sure I understand your point here. I acknowledge that there are a lot of one or two pet reptile keepers out there that do not know what they are doing, and these people are contributing to the misperception that the public has, but they are just one part of the problem. What I am advocating is for the herp community, in an effort to protect it’s interests, be proactive on the issue and encourage responsible pet ownership for all people keeping herps. In other words, by placing reptile care sheets in the hands of the starting pet reptile keeper and educating the pet shop owners about proper herp care we go along way toward heading off the big HSUS criticism. This takes the wind out of their sails, and makes the balance of their argument a bit weak.

At its basic level this is a political campaign. HSUS is largely a lobbyist group based in Washington DC that has satellite offices all across the country, and thus, it has direct access to politicians at all levels. HSUS is supplying information with real statistics to the people making the laws, so when a problem comes up in a local area, the politician can pull on the resources of the HSUS, which unlike PETA has a pretty good reputation with most Americans BTW, and make the case to eliminate herps. What can you do in response to this looming problem? Well, you can sit back and complain about how unfair this is, or you can do something about it! If you think my way won’t work, fine, but come up with a plan to solve the problem in a reasonable manor that is going to sell well to the guy next door, because sitting back and complaining about the problem to a bunch of other herpers does absolutely no good, and in the end herpers WILL LOSE!

And BTW, who do you think controls the actions of the Agencies? That’s right, Politicians!

Big Brother