Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've thought about posting this for quite some time now. I know one of the big things preached about in the process of keeping hot snakes is keeping the AV to go along with them. I'd like for those of you that read this to post in responce and answer HONESTLY, do you maintain your own PRIVATE supply of antivenom for EVERY species of venomous snake you keep (assuming there is an AV available for those species)? This AV has to have been paid for out of your own pocket. Please pay attention to the words in capital letters, they are the essential part of this question. Exclusions: you cannot say yes if your AV comes from 1.) the zoo you work for, 2.) the state-wide AV bank you subscribe to (FL), or 3.) a good friend's supply, be it a zoo staff member or otherwise. Along with your answer, give reasons why or why not. I'll put mine below as to why I do not keep my own.

I've been wanting to post this for quite some time, because we often see people berating others about the issue, but I wonder really what those doing the attacking honestly do. Now, if you live in FL and subscribe to the state AV bank, you can answer and let us know if your state did not have that bank, would you or could you keep AV for your snakes? If not, would you keep the snakes?

I'm applying this poll to everyone, be they a private keeper, zoo staff, university staff, broker, dealer, importer, breeder, etc etc etc. I'm very curious to the results of this poll, as long as everyone can answer honestly. One word posts are fine by me, reasons aren't necessary, but are helpful. Speaking of reasons, here are mine.

First off, obviously, AV is very expensive. In a thread on another site, someone compared it to buying a car. Expensive, but necessary. True on both accounts probably. However, I can't really name anyone that buys a brand new car every 3 years, cash up front, no trade in. Realistically, keeping a good supply of AV is going to run a person probably somewhere between $5,000 and $20,000. AV has a shelf life of three years, not counting the time that it has already been in existance. For me, spending that sort of money every three years or less is unthinkable. I'll copy paste something I posted in another forum from here on, just using these as exmaples.

"You equate keeping antivenom with buying a car. I believe this to be erroneous. No matter what species you maintain, the cost of AV is phenominal. Even CroFab I've heard is stupidly expensive. Zoo personnel and Floridians can preach about keeping one's own supply of AV all they wish, because theirs is basically supplied for them. Zoo keepers don't pay a penny out of pocket for AV access and Floridians subscribe to a state wide AV bank for a very minimal yearly fee (or so I've heard). From a realistic standpoint, keeping one's own AV is comparable to buying a new vehicle every three years, no trade in. You simply throw the vehicle away after three years and buy another one. That is, IF the AV isn't already aged somewhat by the time you get it. A three year shelf life is rediculous. I'd imagine the makers are trying to forumulate ways to make it last longer. So let's say a person keeps his/her own AV, and a couple weeks to a month after the expiration date he/she is bitten. The person cannot self-administer the serum for fear of immediate anaphylaxis killing him/her dead on the spot, 10x faster than any snake venom. The paramedics probably won't administer it (I'm taking this directly from the mouths of an EMT unit I gave an educational presentation to last summer) because they typically don't have the means to counteract sever anaphylaxis. Doctors, who are already very leary of using a foreign, non EPA-approved drug, are certainly going to be cautious administering an expired foreign, non EPA-approved drug. So unless the person is just rish beyond imagining, keeping one's own decent supply of AV begins to go slightly beyond the realm of possibilities for most people.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not AT ALL saying that it's bad for keepers to keep their own AV. I think it'd be great if every state that allow the keeping of venomous snakes were to formulate a state-wide AV bank, but that's impossible. The Floridians have it great, and I hope they appreciate that. Zoo personnel are set to go, as long as the animals they privately maintain can be treated with the AV covering the zoo's species. The rest of us though are just up a creek in this issue. I can't name one single hot keeper that can afford to dish out $10,000 to $20,000 every three years or better, and I bet most people reading this can't either. I'm talking private keepers no located in Florida and not employed by zoos or great friends of zoo personnel."

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing the results of this small poll. Please be honest with your responces, otherwise they're pointless. It'd also be nice if we could have posts without attacks, but knowing this forum, it's bound to happen at some point. My posting this will probably cause some, at least. Have fun.
-Chance Duncan
River Valley Snakes

First off, Florida's antivenom bank is no longer membership based. Anyone who needs the antivenom will get it, but will also be charged for it.

Personally, I'm still waiting for my permit to come in, so I don't keep my own hots yet although I care for quite a few at a refuge. When I start keeping my own, I almost certainly will not keep my own AV unless I suddenly come into a huge amount of money somewhere and here's why.

1) I live in South Florida where AV for most snakes is readily availible.

2) I will probably be keeping mostly exotic species but ones for which the AV is carried by the local AV bank.

3) The chances of me and another person in the state geting bitten by a sawscale viper in the same week are fairly slim so I don't see using up the availible AV as a likely scenario.

4) If I do need AV from the bank, I'll end up having to pay for it anyway even if it takes me a while. After all, as much as we (myself included) like to gripe about the cost of AV, it will probably be a fraction of the cost of the hospital stay.

Now, for some of the exotics, the AV is actually fairly cheap, so I may get my own for some of them. Also, if it turns out later that I get into keeping crotalids and so I have a lot of snakes that are covered by the same AV (and one that there might be contention for) then I might feel that I should spring for that even if it's a few grand a year.

If I lived in a state that didn't have an AV bank nearby, I'm not sure what I would do about the exotics...maybe just try to stick to species that are all covered by someone's polyvalent so I can afford to keep a supply.
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Larry D. Fishel
Side effects may include paralysis
and death but are generally mild.

Depends on how specific you are.

For example, I keep Costa Rican Polyvalent in supply. This is made from L. stenophrys, C. d. durissis and Bothrops asper. It covers those species(which I keep) as well as various Bothreichis spp( i have nigroviridis and lateralis) and Atropoides(I have A. n. occiduum and A. picadoi), but is also but isn't made from them. Technically, even though it isn't made from Lachesis muta either or other Bothrops spp, it probably still will work on them, in the same way CRO-FAB can be used to treat a Crotalus horridus. SO, in that regard, I would use CR-Poly to treat a bite from the other Bothrops species I keep or from Lachesis muta.

I do not keep Cro-fab or Wyeth Polyvalent, simply because the local hospital does.

FYI, 15 vials of CR Polyvalent only runs around $450 when you figure in USDA permits and courier shipping. Not an unreasonable cost that anyone pi$$ing away a couple thousand for a bushmaster shouldn't be able to afford.

I knew the Costa Rican was very cheap, comparatively. It's just too bad other AVs aren't so attainable. If I kept the species covered by the CR, which I may at some point (was sort of thinking about B. asper or atrox), I would most certainly dish out that measly sum to have myself set, just incase.
-Chance

I've recently been informed that the Instituto Clodomiro Picado, has cut back production and is only producing AV on an as needed(or ordered) basis. As such, I am going to try and stop by there in April when I go down to see how much lead time is required and if the prices have changed.

What's more important, is they are only producing liquid form, and have discontinued the freeze dried form(what I currently have). The liquid is good for 3 years, the dry form was good for 5 years.

Matt, when I was in CR last year, the lead time was approximately 4-6 weeks. Due to the cutback in production, many of the rural hospitals/pharmacies no longer stock the a/v, and you will likely have to order and purchase it in San Jose.

~TE

No I do not. At the moment I only keep N.A. pitvipers and Micrurus so there is anti venin available at virtually every hospital where I live. However I will honestly say that if I were to keep mambas(or any exotic) I would do so without av due to the expense. This may not be politically correct but I dont know one person that can afford the expense one time let alone every three years.

Tom

I keep South African Polyvalent on hand which covers the bulk of my hots (Naja annulifera, nigricollis and has shown effectiveness aginst Asian Naja which would inculde my kaouthia. I still need specific regional AV for them however. Also, hopefuly my Atheris and Aspidelaps but as is known, they are without a specific AV). My Trims (borneensis and purpureomaculatus)do not have AV. My Agkistrodons(taylori, picsivorus and mokasen) are covered under CroFab which the local hospitals do have in stock. (I have contacted them)Basicly yes, I do have myself covered in every aspect posible and I do not maintain sp I can not save my self from.

Regarding your proposed expense report on obtaining exotic AV, as was mentioned above, its nowhere near that much unless you are trying to supply the whole contry with OZ poly!!! Most exotic AVs are fairly cheap, rangeing between 40-80 bucks a vile. There are some notable exceptions but for the most part they are not all that expensive.

Personaly I think you are doing this to justify your self and your neglagence with regards to fallowing safe and proper protocal with your animals but that is just me and I may be the only one here who has read the entertaining thread over at VR. You completely dodged the question over there BTW.

Well, I hope this helps your survey.

Adios,
J

P.S I personaly know of no one in the hobby who keep Crofab on hand. Has anybody ever had experince obtaining the stuff? If so I would like to know how it went.

P.P.S Thanks for the laugh Chance! I thought your cheap shot at me over at VR was very amuseing:-D

>>I keep South African Polyvalent on hand which covers the bulk of my hots (Naja annulifera, nigricollis and has shown effectiveness aginst Asian Naja which would inculde my kaouthia. I still need specific regional AV for them however. Also, hopefuly my Atheris and Aspidelaps but as is known, they are without a specific AV). My Trims (borneensis and purpureomaculatus)do not have AV. My Agkistrodons(taylori, picsivorus and mokasen) are covered under CroFab which the local hospitals do have in stock. (I have contacted them)Basicly yes, I do have myself covered in every aspect posible and I do not maintain sp I can not save my self from.
>>
>>Regarding your proposed expense report on obtaining exotic AV, as was mentioned above, its nowhere near that much unless you are trying to supply the whole contry with OZ poly!!! Most exotic AVs are fairly cheap, rangeing between 40-80 bucks a vile. There are some notable exceptions but for the most part they are not all that expensive.
>>
>>Personaly I think you are doing this to justify your self and your neglagence with regards to fallowing safe and proper protocal with your animals but that is just me and I may be the only one here who has read the entertaining thread over at VR. You completely dodged the question over there BTW.
>>
>>Well, I hope this helps your survey.
>>
>>Adios,
>>J
>>
>>P.S I personaly know of no one in the hobby who keep Crofab on hand. Has anybody ever had experince obtaining the stuff? If so I would like to know how it went.
>>
>>P.P.S Thanks for the laugh Chance! I thought your cheap shot at me over at VR was very amuseing:-D

I do hope this can stay productive and not turn ugly. Larry, thanks for the information about the FL bank. I was not aware of that. I've actually been considering, after I get my degree in Life Science Education, seeing about finding a job teaching in FL. Seems like a great state to live in, and the benefits to any reptile keeper (climate, easy access to dealers, huge shows, not to mention the access to a multitude of AVs) are very tempting. Anyway, keep it up.
-Chance

As a director/curator of a wildlife center that also features venomous reptiles, I feel it is my responsibility to keep a minimum level of antivenin for the species we keep (if available, we don't keep anything for our atheris). But, I will admit, it is a HUGE cost and something we continue to struggle with. Although I am a blessed person in being a professional herpetologist, I am also a private hobbyist, first and foremost, and I have mixed opinions on this subject. I have many friends who keep venomous who do not keep their own antivenin...and these are very responsibile and professional people who take their hobby very, very seriously. They know the risks they are taking and by no means do they put others in harms way. They have strict protocols set up as well as emergency procedures (and know that they could ring up quite a veterinary bill). But, deep down I can't help but feel that if someone is going to keep a venomous herp, that they should be responsible for keeping their own stores of antivenin. Recently, we had to ship out all of our supplies to help a private individual who got tagged by his pet rattlesnake....now we are having a hard time replenishing our supplies. In the case of Florida, I think that they have a great system set up and I am investigating trying to do something similar here in Illinois; that is, have some sort of antivenin bank (at least with facilities similar to mine...it is illegal for a private individual to keep venomous herps). Some of our hospital keep small supplies but I would hate to count on them in the case of an emergency. I guess I am riding the fence on this one as I empathize with private keepers who truly are responsible keepers.

Rob Carmichael, Director/Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreation

Even with your antivenoms you are still not safe!
Death can still take you.
It pays to be ready are you?
Have you done all that you can do?
Do you have a will?
You all have listened to me whine for years.
within your questions are your answers.
good day
bud

I have access to AV through the zoo, however, almost anyone has access to AV from their local/state Poison Control Center,Zoo,and local hospitals, including exotic AV. The AZA publishes an AV index that is available to hospitals/Poison Control Centers etc. that lists the availability and and locality of specific AV as needed on a case by case basis.Contact numbers are provided. AV has been life-flighted from another state to assist the victim of an exotic bite, due to the availability of this AV index.

However, when people [bleep] and moan about the costs of AV, one should consider the costs without it.

It is simply foolish to house an exotic snake WITHOUT access to AV, plain and simple. And as we know, there are alot of exotic snakes in the U.S. that people have in their private collection that do not have access to AV.
The consequences without access to specific AV is grim.

Randal Berry

I keep only Species Covered by Crofab/Wyeth(N.A.PitVipers),
2 of the 4 nearest hospitals keep it on hand.
There are a number of Exotic species I would love to keep,but I feel it would be irresponsible to do so without A/V on hand.
Ryan,

South African polyvalent is 35.00 per vial
Recomended 7-15 vials to treat a Gaboon bite ( although I would have more for them) lets say 20 vials...
That would cover African Naja, Dendroaspis, Bitis, Hemachatus
Thats alot of snakes covered by a nominal $700.00 every 3 years.
Polyvalent australian is 1,200.00 per vial That would cover...
Several Psuedechis sp. several Psuedonaja sp. Acanthophis sp. Oxyuranus sp. and several Notechis sp. Thats more coverage than snakes available. Taipans require 7-10 vials,( although I have heard alot more) so you are looking at 12,000.00.
Crofab is 1500.00 per set of two vials ( last I heard)
Mexican Bioclon is easily available for 250.00 per vial and is a much better serum, covers more species. For those of you who keep multiple N.A. pit viper species and think you are covered by Cro fab, You are sorely mistaken.

So to the question at hand, do I keep venomous snakes at home..no, can't afford the serum for the species I like.( I too am interested most in Aussie Elapids) So I work professionally with them. My institution just spent a lot of money for serum, we have more for more species than anywhere else in the country.
Being that I don't know if there is anyone 3 blocks down the street that just so happens to have a pair of cbb papuan taipans. How do I order the serum? do I risk ordering 10 vials @ 12,000.00 to cover our zoo, and hope some crazy neighbor in a 12 or more state region doesn't have one or doesn't get bit by one. Or do I order 20 vials at 24,000.00 just in case?
Chance are you registered with those sources of Av in MO. or Kentucky, did you even ask them or tell them that you have taipans and no way to treat your bite? Thats a pretty shi@@y thing to do.
If your local zoo doesn't know you keep them, why would they stock enough serum for two bites? Yours and theirs? Last year was a prime example of a private person getting bitten, using a zoo's serum, then one of that zoo's staff was bitten and had to use another zoo's serum. It's a dominoe effect.

The point here is, if you are going to keep venomous snakes, why would you NOT keep the proper AV. If you can't afford Aussie AV, then don't keep those snakes, go visit them in a zoo somewhere. And keep those snakes that you can afford. It's just like buying a snake and not being able to afford to feed it. Why would someone do that? People who don't keep their own AV are as irresponsible as the person who buys an iguana at the local pet shop, feeds it hamburger in a 10 gal. aquarium.. not too bright.

Money sucks, some people have Ferrarri's (Australian elapids) and some people have Volvo's (gaboons and mambas)

Point is... there are many snakes that are worth keeping that require little to no serum, or ones that have serum made relatively cheaply and easy to get.

Basically just because you can financially afford to BUY a taipan, can you really afford to KEEP one?
Terry

Good points, Terry. The only thing I really disagree on is the fact that mambas are Ferraries and Aussie Elapids are Lotus

~TE

A few months ago I inquired to SAIMR about their SA polyvalent and their Dispholidus monovalent. I was quoted $60 per vial on the poly, and $250 per vial on the mono (which is was actually much cheaper than I had guestimated). Did they just recently drop their price on their poly, or is that an old quote possibly out of date?

You're very lucky to be able to work with the snakes you wish and have no out of pocket burden either in buying them or their AV. I just hope you realize how lucky that makes you, but that it's an extreme rarity for anyone to get a position like that.

As to being registered with my sources, one of the sources in MO is aware of what snakes I keep and a number of friends that are keepers in FL work closely with their Venom 1 and know what I keep (including the person I acquired the canni from). But like I said initially to try to circumvent these posts, it's very easy for people who have their animals and AV put in their lap to complain about others not keeping AV, because it's difficult for those people to really think about what it would be like to not have those resources. The vast, vast majority of us though do not have that luxury and have to go with what we can keep. No one said keeping hots was a safe hobby, anymore than sky diving. But it's something we all choose to do, and in that choice, we accept the consequences of whatever may befall us. I personally would never make the choice to devastate anyone's stocks of any form of AV unless I knew that they could either quickly and easily resupply or that they had plenty to cover another bite if it occured. Can you say the same?
-Chance

Is there any evidence that suggests that the SA Polyvalent is effective against the Asian Naja? It was suggested in another post, just curious if it can be validated.
-Chance

Yes, I do keep my own antivenin for many of the species I keep. Most of the exotic antivenin is financially feasible to stock, and simply requires some effort and relatively small amounts of money to obtain. Not everyone may be able to keep their own stock, but really every effort should be made to do so, especially if the species in question are especially toxic or require antivenin that is not readily accessible.

~TE

I haven't read any of the other posts yet, as i don't want to give the impression that i have a biased point of view. All I have to say, is that if I were to go to my employers(who are zoo owners) with a snake bite from one of my own collection, I'd be extremely embarrassed and would probably lose any credibility related to the topic, and mayb die. This is a rather bold statement, but I'm willing to say it anyway. If you fear the that keeping antivenin is detrimetal to ones keeping of hots, then, wait and learn the skills necessary, or dont keep them.

creep

That is very respectable to not want to deplete someone elses stock of serum. Unless they could replace it quickly. AV is not replaceable quickly. That being said, it is not that any zoo would be unhappy to provide that serum for someone bitten. We are all people here and don't want to see any of us die. It is just frustrating that people don't want to take the time to do things right for everyone. Whats wrong with waiting a few years until funds are a little more readily accessible, or strive to find a place at a facility? I don't want to be the preacher for this thread. So I apologize about that. All I'm saying is that sometimes man has the ability to do something but they should not always do it. Atom bomb comes to mind.
I am by no means jumpin on you Chance. I would like to respectably add this though, even with a constriction bandage, with a good Taipan bite AV in Florida, MO or Kentucky may not arrive in time. I just think that with a little time, Australia will eventually open to commercialization of their wildlife which will in turn drop the price of Serum, so maybe it would be better to wait until things drop a little?
Night flight, which is faster/more expensive the Lotus or the Ferrari?
Terry

Terry,

I believe that Ferraris are generally faster and more expensive than Lotus, whereby the ladder also has a smaller engine. I'm sure that either analogy would be adequate, depending on your personal preference for either Dendroaspis or Australian Elapids.

~TE

I do not keep antivenom on hand. Fortuatly I am in Florida where there is Venom one. They have a list of the species I keep.
The keeping of a personal antivenom bank is not practical.
Without even going into exensive replacement costs to keep your stock up to date, the animals involved vary so much in venom structure, quality and yield (even within individuals of the same species) that finding locality sensitive AV in some cases would be a nightmare. The result would be a less than effective supply.
A classic example of this was recently shown on O'Shay's show about Russel's Vipers.
My personal choice is to limit the size and type of venomous snakes I keep (No cobras or other large elapids and Viper's at home) to maximise the safety issue and to practice only necessary and safe handling proceedures.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

The keeping of av in a zoo is not practical either or Venom One for that matter. Yet we do anyway, because it is logical and responsible. What if all the zoos decided to stop keeping antivenom? Then what would you do?
1- stop keeping venomous snakes
or
2- get your own AV

But fortunately someone else (zoos) will be responsible for you.
It's the American Way, to not be responsible for what we do. Let someone else worry about it....Right!

It is practical, logical and responsible. However it seems that that is not the American Way. We do what we want to do regardless of who we hurt along the way. Kinda like buy now, pay later.

Everyone says it is my "right" to keep what I want....

What gives you the "right" to endanger others? The people who are being responsible FOR you, you are trying to get them killed.

I don't think it will be too long before a zoo keeper is killed by a venomous snake because all of their AV was given to someone else who didn't have their own...

Then we'll see what kind of laws are passed....

Think about that

Why did I know it would be you. Don't give me the responsibility crap because money does not make one more responsible. Just rich enough to buy expensive problems.

Also I see you ignored the problem of "locality and species specific AV. It is becoming more obvious that this is not so simple a thing as just having the correct species AV. For the average keeper that would mean setting up a AV library in order to locate and obtain specific AV for his animals. It is not as simple as you keep saying.

And sorry...I have kept for over thirty years without a serious envenomation because I am "responsible" enough to work within my own set limitations.
Frank

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Also, according to Venom One (who we comunicate with regularly, the keeping of a effective home supply is impossible (too many variables) especially since (even in my own collection ) there are species that AV is not even made for. Do you have AV for all the species at your Zoo?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Many more people are bit by their own...or other peoples dogs, than a re bit by their own snakes. Using your logic shouldn't it be Mandatory that anyone who keeps dogs...or cat's and other carriers of Rabies be required to carry Rabies vaccine at home? What's the difference??

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

that you are trying to take this to an argument and adding the dog factor.
Just so you know Rabies is a Required vaccination...
just because a private person would have to do more work to find locality AV. Means it's unfeasible, is that what you are saying....Oh I forgot you want someone else to do your homework for you!
Yes, we have all the antivenoms available for the species we keep.
It's a lot of work and expensive but thats why its called responsibility.
Don't take this to that level, there is AV available for the VAST majority of species on the market. IF everyone made an effort to stock their own we would have many fewer problems. It would not eliminate them. Thats impossible.
As far as Venom One saying it is unfeasable, thats because they are marking up the serum and making money from it. No wonder they don't want everyone to stock their own.
Frank, we've hashed this out before. You are stubborn and do not have the ability to see another point of view, as has been shown in all the post's in the last two weeks. So we should just not address each other. I believe one thing and you another...Lets just leave it at that.....
Adeu

Sorry, required or not, dogbite victims are still required to get the battery of shots if your stray pouch is not located, or is late getting his booster. Dogs are required (correct) but are all the animals we keep as pets so required? The point here is to show anyone who has the "potential" to put anyone in harms way has a responsibility. It is not right to single out a particular group like we have a monopoly on it. the record shows us to be far safer than dog, gun car, plane etc...owners. But we know you have a personal axe to grind....

I would watch what I was saying about Venom One. That is Miami-Dade Fire Rescue (namely; The City of Miami). If you want to make charges that they are raising prices as a form of extortion, or to corner the market, I am quite sure that they would have the appropriate legal response.

As to doing my own research. I do (sorry to burst your bubble, but asking you months ago about AV sources shows I am trying to get responsible information-unless you consider yourself an unresponsible source). I ask people who have knowledge in areas I am not familiar with so that I get an intelligent view on the information rather than depending only on my interpretation. You have a problem with this?

As far as the stuborness you complain about. I hold that any idea should stand up to the test of critisim. Don't complain to me if you just don't make your point.

And finally, again you did not address the issue I mentioned in my last posts, except to make a silly slander of Venom One. You really want all of us to feel so.....guilty.

If you really don't want to argue with me, then don't answer my posts.....I usually ignore yours anyway (point being-you did not start this thread, so don't bug me if I answered).

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

So in other words you still want to argue?
O.K. than how about you explain your reasons that you have to use someone elses AV. Why is that a responsible behavior? Did they start Venom One as a Nice little favor for everybody, or did they realize that no one was going to be responsible for their own actions, therefore implementing a plan of action because there are so many venomous keepers in Florida? Someone has to be responsible! In no way did I imply any sort of Monopoly...thats you trying to sound intelligent in an argument that you have no place to stand. They are a buisness and must defray costs somehow? I think what they do is great, but the reason they do it sucks.......too many irresponsible people.
Tell me Frank you have not had a serious envenomation? Thats great, but you have been envenomated, did you require serum? If so I guess you used someone elses......
Another point, you have been doing this for 30 years and you don't know anything about Antivenom....Is that why you "researched" through me? Thats not only irresponsible, but negligent! Be responsible for yourself....don't argue with me when you don't have any grounds for your argument.
If you would like to keep this thread between you and I....great!
I love it when you come unarmed to a contest of wits!
Taphillip

TA, you might want to read the posts before you start making so many errors in your rebuttal.

Did I say I had EVER used anybodies Anti-venum? No dear soul.... Serious envenomation in my book means needing antivenom and/or other medical treatment. Since I have NEVER REQUIRED ANTIVENOM, your arguement (as usual ) is based on your own erroneous assumptions. Did the part where I mentioned using strict safe techniques elude you somewhere? I don't sweat rearfang bites from mildy venomous species and that is all that has ever envenomated me.

As I previously stated, Venom One is a part of the Metro-Dade County Fire Department, NOT A INDEPENDANT BUSINESS. Wrong again TA! Besides that, the actual manufacture of antivenom is a business. No one there is making it out of the "kindness of their heart". Do you have connections or stock in any of those companies? Would answer some questions....

As far as researching thru you goes. You mentioned an AV source and I asked you to send that imformation. That is hardly researching Antivenom thru you (again you err!).

I never said that I knew nothing about Antivenom (wrong again).

What I did say was that I did not depend upon my own interpretation of the facts exclusivly (that's being responsible). Unlike you, I do seek other opinions and weigh the evidence presented. Also, my wife's field of study is Toxinology. My sister is a critical care nurse with experience in envnomation cases. I don't think you want to test your background against theirs. (Wrong once more).

There is an old ploy used by those who cannot support their arguements. They attack the charactor of those they disagree with. You haven't changed TA; you still shoot below the belt.

It is very easy to sit up there in (South Dakota?)and take shots at a system that is accross the country from you and that you are only Vaguely familiar with. Pathetic......

To debate you...would be to grant you a respectability that you certainly don't like to give to others....So go ahead and rant. You seem to be the one with the "problem" anyway.

Oh...and about your closing comment...You couldn't come up with something more origional than that lame come-on?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

If you actually read the post, you would see that I ASKED you if you required serum...I ASKED! You are unable to answer even the simplest question without insulting and attacking...
Why don't you answer a question for once? why is it that you have to rely on someone else to cover your mistakes? You can't afford the serum and/or too lazy to go through all the work to order Saw-scale Serum, You keep those don't you? What will you do if you are bitten by one? who is gonna pay your medical bill?...the people of Florida? This is a question.

Miami is a government....government is a type of buisness, providing a service requesting a fee....so yes Venom One is indeed a buisness....
asking questions finding answers IS research, so yes you did research through me.

The field of Toxinology has many areas of study, I have never met your wife so I couldn't say what hers is. What is it Frank ? That also was a question.

Shooting below the belt, if that is your definition of me having facts and reasonable arguments than I'm sorry you are not able to listen to critisism. If your ideas cannot stand up to critisism....sorry.

I never said I was "vaguely familiar" to the system in Florida. Just because I'm in S.D. doesn't mean I don't have a clew. Hey there you go attacking my character?????

Respect Frank is something that I don't give away. You must earn it. And with irresponsible behavior such as yours, Respect is not something that you are easily going to earn.
Not that you need or want to have it. But in trying to have an intelligent debate with you, you put yourself in a place for me to develop an opinion of you.

That was not a lame-come-on. It was truthful.
You are not able to answer the question.......

"Why is it O.K. that a zoo or Venom One is responsible for the expense and the AV. a private keeper uses when they are bitten?

Answer me that. Can you?

Your last question in this post was so vague as to be almost intelligable. If I am translating it correctly...

Because it is a medical treatment. And we (in Florida) pay for what is used on us. What you suggest is like paying a doctor for penicillian in the fear that we might one day need it. it has a shelf life and to expect each individual to take away from a supply that might be needed elsewhere is just plain stupid.

My wife is a member of The International Society of Toxinologists. I have no doubt you've heard of them if you are in the zoo trade. if not, maybe you have seen their Journal TOXICON? Her chief area of interest is Elapid venoms.

I have never come within touching distance to my saw scaled or any other viper. Hooks and Tongs.....Your point?

Miami-Venom One a business? come on! Rationalise a bit?

I'm still waiting for these facts you claim to have.

Respect is based on a mutuality....Don't feel bad, I don't respect you either.

Oh, and it's "don't have a clue..."

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Let me rephrase since you don't understand plain english,

Why does a zoo or Venom One have to supply the AV. and cover the costs of the original and the replacement AV. When a private person is envenomated?

You say you in Florida pay for what is used on you in Florida, If you can't afford to buy 1000.00 of serum how is it that you could cover a cost of 10,000, 100,000 or in Van Horns case over 360,000 dollars?
You can't. So all you are doing by using someone elses serum is putting that zoo staff at risk! Oh...that makes sense.

" What you suggest is like paying a doctor for penicillian in the fear that we might one day need it."

Except you are not paying for the serum unless you use it. Which puts someone elses life at risk because you can't afford it or are too lazy to get it!

"it has a shelf life and to expect each individual to take away from a supply that might be needed elsewhere is just plain stupid."

At least you agree that it is just plain stupid to take away from a supply that might be needed elsewhere! )in a zoo that paid for their own, to protect their own staff!)
Do you rely on the hospitals Crofab? because you would be taking serum away from an "accidental" bite to a little child! Because you CHOOSE to keep venomous snakes!

I have never come within touching distance to my saw scaled or any other viper. Hooks and Tongs.....Your point?
My point....mistakes happen!

Miami-Venom One a business? come on! Rationalise a bit?

Do they offer a service for a fee? yup.

I'm still waiting for these facts you claim to have.

I'm giving you reality, you are giving me nothing but irresponsibilty....

All you would have to do is say...gee, maybe I SHOULD be responsible for my own actions.

Oh I forgot you don't know what responsibility is....

I feel sorry for your wife if she should every get bitten by one of your snakes. Your irresponsibility does effect others!

If does not equal fact...You seem very Big on if. Not so much on fact. I say I don't physically touch something....You say mistakes happen. Gee when are you going to run out of "what if's?" When we are born...we run the risk and eventually succumb to death. Life is if. Sorry if I don't cover all of your if's.

As far as your logic goes. it really goes nowhere. I've said my piece and when I have placed facts and answers you come back with if.

If I were to need a shot of penicillian it would take away some that somebody else might need. Your point?

You still don't make sense. Nor have you answered any question I put to you....
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."