Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I posted earlier about a turtle that I thought had bit my dog's leg off, and was attacking my chickens, well now it attacked me! I had constructed a snare to try and capture it, and was surveying along the lake to try and spot it. Suddenly the monster burst from the lake, and charged me, with its mouth agape and hissing. I was barely able to escape, and only slowed its charge after striking it in the head with my snare. It must have been three-and-a-half feet in diameter, and it attacked more like a gator than anything else. Later that day, at dusk, I watched from the porch as he slid out of the water and slowly stalked a few dove that were roosting near the lake. Do you think this thing has some sort of pollution induced hormonal imbalance? I'm almost positive that this is the snapper that hobbled my dog. Please help me.

I think it must have been a baby albanian gooseneck alligator snapper...wait till it grows up! They can be quite nasty. They particularly like elephants to eat. Hope you don't have any around your house.

Is this for real? I am new to the turtle realms, but this seems quite unbelievable.
~~B

Wow... Hahahaha... People these days are so gulliable.

True, true. I certainly was not inclined to believe this tale, nor the response, but I can't claim any thing near superior knowledge of the turtle realms
Funny though!
~~B

I've seen musk turtle jump from trees and attack people in canoes!

I also saw this pond at a howard johnsons in north florida that was stocked with turtles and people would feed them. This dumb kid went swimming in the pond, and the turtles attacked him and some adults litterally had to save him. He was as bloody as hell from all the turtle bites. Large softshells and florida red-bellies can bite real hard.

I also saw a box turtle attack a baby bird that fell from its nest. It ignored the protective parents and just ripped the bird apart.

Once I found a dead bass with a drowned stinkpot turtle in its stomach. It appeared that I ate the stinkpot, and the stinkpot ripped up its insides trying to get out.

Mark

Since when do musk turtles climb high up in trees? Then have the sense to jump down at people to attack something 50 times larger than it. Must have been when those pigs started to fly.

I certainly didn't expect to be ridiculed here. Very well, then.

It's painfully obvious, now, that the behavior I described is out of the ordinary for a turtle, but I find the cynicism displayed here difficult to reconcile with forward thinking people.

William Perry, Harvard's distinguished developmental psychologist, would say that it seems my account has created a a certain cognitive disequilibrium for some of you, and that this will be a chance for either growth, or stagnation. I realize my experience seems to defy the principle of economy, and were I simply saying that I overheard this somewhere, or a friend told me, then I'd agree that I would be guilty of multiplying entities without good and sufficient cause. I am, however, an eye-witness, and as such, I am the only person with any sort of evidence relating to this particular incident, in either regard. While it may be easy for you all to insist that this is hogwash, you have presented to me no more empirical evidence to support your conclusion, than I have presented you, and while this may fall outside the boundaries of your worldview, I resolve to remain just as cynical about your cynicism, as you are about my eyewitness account.

However, I admit, in this case it is I who bears the burden of proof, and I will do my best to bring proof of my claims before this forum, even if it means tying one of my innocent fowl to a stake, as bait.

robert

Mr. Castle,
I too, am disappointed with the replies given by others on the forum. But I must say that I understand the point of origin for their opinions. Many of us have heard hyperbolic stories of giant turtles and huge snakes only to fimnd that they were indeed exaggeration. And at some point any science becomes a religion. So many people stop wanting to belive in the possibility of extremely large or fast animlas. Often the burden of proof becomes to large a load to carry and nevertheless "true" accounts never have evidence brought to bear. I personally believe that you did encounter this large animal and i would not be totally shocked if it did indeed bite you. However, i further would not be surprised if the creature turned out to be much smaller than you seemed to think and if in addition it was not the sole culprit in consuming your birds. I really hope you get a decent photo but i implore you not to hurt this animal. The alligator snapping turtle is a creature in great and serious danger of extinction (or at least extirpation in the wild) and its plight is not widely known. I suspect you have found a rather large (perhaps even record-sized) specimen of this species and i should like too see it re-homed where it can no longer molest your animals but where it will be treated with the respect and care it deserves. A animal this large is likely to be quite old and from my view this affords it a good deal of respect not just as a predator and formidable opponent (which you doubtless have given it) but as a long survivor agianst the odds. Please tell again where you live. It may be possible for someone to sacrifice some time helping you catch the turtle safely and maybe soemone will even offer to re-home it for you. Have you checked with John Richards (turtleman.com) and others at the snapping turtle forum? Perhaps they culd be of help in designing a safe trap or in finding a home for this animal.
PLEASE do not stab it or beat it or shoot it. It would be a terrible loss. Feel free to email me directly and i will see if I can find someone who might be able to help you.

And to the others: skeptical is the safest attitude for your ego and that of the science but its never the most successful. "Cryptozoologists" are often wrong or search in vain but they have their share of winning moments as well. For an example from the domain of our own beloved chelonia, lets not forget Chitra chitra whose great size was thought to be a myth until only the early 1980s. Now four foot specimens are living in several breeding establishments. This is not to say that there are 4 foot ally snappers out there but maybe there are. I still belive in Oscar from Indiana ; )

-rob zebeck

You both need to get a new thesaurus and brush up on sentence structure and punctuation. Brilliant attempt though.

?

Sorry.
And you get a star for a nice example of an ad hominem argument. Attack the point, not me.

Robert,
actually an ad hominem argument is an attack against an individual concerning a personal trait/action NOT relevant to the topic being discussed, i.e. discounting a former drug abuser's argument against her child's use of drugs on the basis of her former drug use..."well, you used to do drugs, so what you say doesn't matter).
In pointing out spelling errors and punctuation/grammatical mistakes, it could be argued that not your personal traits but rather the level of your erudition was put into question. It seems that this particular putting into quesiton (namely of your erudition) might be relevant insofar as it relates to your quoting and use of scholarly quotes to bolster and/or defend your position about the said turtle attack.
Personally, I don't think your spelling and grammatical mistakes have direct relevance to your arguments posted above, but such a connection cannot be ruled out as a primae facie instance of an ad hominem fallacy. In fact, it might be a more clear-cut case of a red herring fallacy. Such is when a person brings in extraneous information as a way to lure the opponent off the track of the original/intended argument.
All that aside, it seems that this posting thing has gotten out of hand on many levels. It also strikes me that such arguing gets us nowhere.
Courtesy, not self-defense, is the best solution. Let's all relax and enjoy our love and/or concern for the proposed topic of this forum: turtles. And yes, Robert, your posting concerning the ally snapper is relevant AND interesting. Please continue to keep us updated on the big guy.
~~B

Robert,
actually an ad hominem argument is an attack against an individual concerning a personal trait/action NOT relevant to the topic being discussed, i.e. discounting a former drug abuser's argument against her child's use of drugs on the basis of her former drug use..."well, you used to do drugs, so what you say doesn't matter".
In pointing out spelling errors and punctuation/grammatical mistakes, it could be argued that not your personal traits but rather the level of your erudition was put into question. It seems that this particular putting into quesiton (namely of your erudition) might be relevant insofar as it relates to your quoting and use of scholarly quotes to bolster and/or defend your position about the said turtle attack.
Personally, I don't think your spelling and grammatical mistakes have direct relevance to your arguments posted above, but such a connection cannot be ruled out as a primae facie instance of an ad hominem fallacy. In fact, it might be a more clear-cut case of a red herring fallacy. Such is when a person brings in extraneous information as a way to lure the opponent off the track of the original/intended argument.
All that aside, it seems that this posting thing has gotten out of hand on many levels. It also strikes me that such arguing gets us nowhere.
Courtesy, not self-defense, is the best solution. Let's all relax and enjoy our love and/or concern for the proposed topic of this forum: turtles. And yes, Robert, your posting concerning the ally snapper is relevant AND interesting. Please continue to keep us updated on the big guy.
~~B

Thanks for the reply.

By pointing out a grammatical error (and I don't doubt there were some), he's certainly calling into question my knowledge and learning level (how erudite I am), and this is a common tactic to use when unable to address an argument on its own terms. In that sense I see the point, relating to the turtle discussion, that perhaps the polemics regarding my erudition were to serve as a red herring, distracting from the original object of the posting, which is turtles.

But I don't think he was doing that.

I'd argue that while the whole point of his posting was to call into question the level of my erudition, it was not to distract from the original argument about the turtle, but rather to call into question my account of the reptillian monster. It's as if he were saying, to modify your example: "Well, you have bad grammar, so what you say [regarding turtles] doesn't matter." That, I believe, would amount to an ad hominem fallacy. If you still think otherwise, then I'd chalk it up to semantics, and still sleep soundly.

Of course, I'd be happy if someone actually pointed out my grammatical errors so that I might correct them in the future. By my own admission, this has never been my strong point, and my writing tends toward getting muddled and overly complex. That I quote or refer to other peoples' thoughts and ideas is an open admission that I am not pretending to push original ideas or new, profound thoughts. As the good book says, "There is nothing new under the sun." And that I like to use 'five-dollar words,' says less about the utilization of a thesaurus, than it does about the convenient availability of the local library. I love to read, and I enjoy the economy of a good word. Of course I offer my sincerest apologies if my web forum posting was not nuanced or proof-read to the satisfaction of my friend on the graduate review committee.

Concerning you, Alotus4u_1975, I feel nothing but warm and sincere affection. I like thinking, for better or worse, and it is always fun to wrestle with a well-learned peer.

Robert,
I certainly see your point about the strong possibility of the post in question being an ad hominem. But, I still think you would need to have the argument spelled out in more detail.

If you reread the post again you will see that the person actually attacks both you AND bloomindaedelus (sp?). Being such, he is not exactly or specifically bringing in the information about grammar and such to discount YOU or YOUR story; in fact, his remark is directed toward both of you, and your conversation with bloomindaedelus could be construed as two people taking somewhat different sides. That being so, his remarks about the grammar, being directed to both of you and not to just your arguments, lead me to believe that it fits better under the red herring fallacy rather than the ad hominem.

Left as it sits, I see a classic case of flippant remarks meant to discount an argument as irrevelant by introducing information that has nothing directly to do with the argument itself. Rather than discounting YOU specifically as arguing fallaciously on grounds that you have no credibility (a claim whose basis is dubious at best--does grammar display intelligence? probably not), he seems to have made his remarks in such a fashion that his intent seems to be to bypass the argument and draw the reader away through flippant dismissal.

On second thought, I can see your point. Funny how the more you argue a point the more you come around to its opposite.... Either way, it is a pleasure to talk with you. Feel free to email me if you care to...good luck with your turtle fiasco.

Additionally, pay no mind to some of the less than courteous posts on here...people like to make fun as a way to make themselves feel better. Would that be a red herring? LOL
bs_1975@yahoo.com

Hey Rob,
I don't think anyone is doubting the size of the turtle. ( if there is one)
A three foot snapper isn't nearly has hard to beleive as the fact that it supposedly bit the leg off a dog and chased a human on land.
That is the biggest load of crap I have heard in quite a while.
To the original poster.......If you have a snapper that chases down humans and dogs on land I want to see video of it.
I know there is someone you know who can loan you a camcorder.
If not get the news crew out there this is definitely a news worthy story.
so here is your chance to prove it.
-----
Jimmy (draybar)

I agree. If a snapper bit off a dogs leg, and attacked a person. The police would be out there in one second with a shotgun and dredging devices. I also have no doubt that the owner would not personally take a gun to it.

A big snapper can bite through a dogs leg. That's true.

Catch that snapper alive. Prove its size and its weight. There are people who would pay hundreds if not thousands for it!

Mark

Mr. Castle,
I truly apologize for your hard feelings. I, being new to the reptile world, didn't know what to think about your report. Then, based on the response posted about the Albanian gooseneck snapper, I assumed you were joking and I hadn't caught on to the joke based on my inferior knowledge. So, all that aside, I hope you find out what is going on and find a peaceful way to resolve the issue.
p.s. watch the defense mechanisms...they are nasty fellows
~~B

Shut up you stupid dummy..No turtle attacks people from the egde of a lake...Get your head out of the clouds and back into reality.
Matt

Well, I for one am not willing to discount the story as mere joke or stupidity However, I too, along with Rob, would love to see some pictures of this cantankerous turtle. If it is as you say, (at least according to what I have read so far, which is slight by any measure) this would be an incredible find.
Please keep us posted; even in our incredulity you will find interested folks
Good luck,
~~B

Gents,
I think many people might feel that a snapper who lunges at any thing would be confusing. As for your dog's leg, that is possable, if your dog walked up to the animal and scared it, it's fight or flight response would kick in and give it amazing speed, much like the mother lifting a car up to retrive a child in danger. As far as it coming after you or your fowl, this to can be true. Most people see turtles as slow moving creatures. Snappers are in fact swift silent hunters who do resemble alligators when conditions are good. Please, take pics of this predator and share with the masses. I saw one destroy a family of geese in a matter of two mins. once. Blue

.

You hallucinating. It seems you mistaking an alligator for a turtle. They are reptiles, but quite different. I'd check you glasses. Also, if you on medications, avoid beer and the sun.

I'm with you. It's great to mix the two, then everything does seem to move a bit differently. Turtles might even "burst" from the water to attack man and beast. Why, I remember a musk turtle did attack me one time. It's a difficult story to tell. For some unknown reason I'd stuffed said turtle inside my shirt. Holy cow! And ouch, he had me in my belly and wouldn't let go! At the time he seemed pretty big. Must have been the medication. I did feel a bit stupid though. Sorry about making fun of you...I really didn't think you were serious about this turtle that "burst" from the water to attack....I'm sure it is possible with the right combination of drugs!