Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Further down the page someone was asking what they would get if they crossed Leucistic and other varieties of black rats. I would like to take it one step further...

Let's say I have an albino, brindle whitesided black rat. (I have black rats het for these three characteristics). If I breed the snake that is homozygous for all three traits (but no leucistic genes) by a snake that is homozygous leucistic (but carries none of the other genes) I would get snakes that are quad hets.

So my question is regarding these four traits and how they would combine...

If I have an Albino Leucistic, I have a pink eyed leucistic.
What if I have a Brindle Leu? Whitesided Leu? Would the Leucistic mute or otherwise mask characteristics of Brindle or Whitesided?

While I'm on the topic... are Leucistic Black Rats the result of hybridization? If I were to buy a Leucistic Black Rat and breed it to my Black Rats should I share with prospective buyers of the offspring the fact that they do have Leucistic lineage (and are therefore not necessarily of "pure" black rat lineage?)

Okay... 'nuff questions for the moment.
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~Sasheena

You are confusing your terms. A snake with pink eyes is not by definition leucistic. The eyes must be dark and the skin white. A true albino lacks genes for melanin production in any color and has pink eyes. If you cross at homo wild with a true albino, all the offspring will have wild coloring, but they will be het for albino traites. If you cross one of these offspring with a snake that is het for any the coloring traits but looks like a wild type, about 1/4 of their offspring will show the recessive trait that was carried by newly introduced parent. Sorry, but I don't know the particulars of Black Rat Snake genetics, but I understand the basics. (That is all you got in a 300 level genetics course years ago.)
The Corn Snake Genetics Primer

A Leucistic animal can have red eyes if it is also homozygous for Albino. It is still homozygous for Leucistic & therefore, a LEUCISTIC animal. If it is a Leucistic - Het. for Albino - it will have dark eyes. If you were to cross the Leucistic mutation into the Lic. Stick or Brindle mutation, the Leucistic mutation will mask the Brindle & Lic. Stick traits. An Albino Brindle Lic. Stick will prob. look no different than a normal Albino Lic. Stick as all the dark pigment will be removed.

There is apparently no way to prove if a Leuc. Black Rat is a pure E. o. obsoleta & not an intergrade. There are supposed to be two different wild-caught animals, one in MD & one in OH. It all depends if you want to believe the people who founded the strains. I personally believe it is not impossible that there are pure Leucistic Blk Ratsnakes. There are Leucistic Burms, Ball Pythons, Rainbow Boas, Gators, Monitors, Deer, etc. - why not a Black Ratsnake??

I agree, since TX rats and black rats share a fairly recent heritage, it's certainly possible the leucistic mutation popped up before the split, and for whatever reason the hets were identified first in Tx rats. Or, the mutation is newer in blacks, but in the same spot.

But, it's very likely that they're intergrades as well, given the frequency with which we integrade these subspecies artificially, or if they have done it themselves in that range (being Canadian, I only know the states on the coasts. Everything else is 'middle' as far as I'm concerned)

Either way, it's nearly impossible to tell if they are true mutations with no Tx rat heritage, as the loci could very well be complementary due to their similarity (isn't it cal kings who have one form of their amelanism identical to that of corns? So potential albino jungle corns can be gotten in the F1, if you have the right strain? Something like that, anyway, in the lampropeltines)

I just don't like the all-white morph. Blue eyes, yes, are pretty, but I love the complexity of rat snake colours. I wouldn't trade my jet black male obsoleta with red in along his side and nice white circles and a slate-grey belly for any white snake. I love watching my females' colours come in with each shed from their neonatal hue. White's pretty boring, at least in my world.

Alex

I don't disagree with you that you can't get a snake that has white skin and pink eyes. They exist in the trade. But such a snake by definition is not LEUCISTIC. Part of the definition for this morph is DARK eyes.

This term is not only used for herps but for other animals as well.
Herp Related Terms and Definitions

I have not mentioned the terms phenotype or genotype & therefore, have not confused the terminology. I think it is you that is confusing the terminology. When using a Punnett Square, the phenotype is determined by the traits involved. For example, an animal can have numerous traits represented in the genotype of that animal. A wild type animal can carry the recessive genes to produce Albinos (aa), Leucistics (ll), Brindles (bb), & White-sideds (ww). The genotype of a quadruple Het. would look like this = AaLlBbWw. The lower case letter represents the recessive trait making that animal heterozygous for that particular trait. In recessive mutations, the upper case letter represents the wild-type colouration. The presence of both lower case letters for a particular trait will determine the phenotype of that animal because it is homozygous for that trait. For example, an Albino White-sided black Ratsnake is still an Albino & a White-sided and would be represented by this genotype = aaww. Other traits can and are operational on seperate alleles. An Albino White-sided could be Het. for Leucistic & Brindle & would be represented in this way = aaBbLlww. Therefore, an Albino Leucistic (aall) is still a Leucistic & an Albino in the same specimen.

The snake would be a leucistic albino. It doesnt have to have dark eyes to be leucistic of another trait is causing it's eyes to be a different color. The source you mentioned is not an official source of these terms agreed-upon by biologists, it's just a general guide for morphs. Furthermore it is only describing the external appearance and not the actually biology behind the morph, ie amelanism being the lack of melanin/a pretty whitish snake with red eyes. You see, the definition there is incomplete.

I don't see why someone would want a lecusistic albino though, seems rather pointless.

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it is still a White-sided. Same concept applies w/ an Albino Leucistic. And if you (Elaphaefan) were right, what is the result of breeding an Albino into a Leucistic? The correct answer is 100% Dbl. Hets. If you still disagree, you have no idea what you are talking about. You may have takien classes on this subject but you obviously have no "hands on" experience. I have produced Albino Leucistic & Albino White-sided Black Ratsnakes, Ghost (Anery X Hypo) Hondurans, and the first SNOWBALL (Axanthic X Albino) PYTHON. I hope to produce the first Axanthic Pastel Jungle Ball Python and the first Dbl. Het. for Snow Monocled Cobras this year. I have also produced a ton of other single homozygous mutations in different species.

Hi Mike....I love the white-sided black rats and am looking forward to seeing one of those gotta-be-gorgeous white-sided sunglows you mentioned earlier. I'm just kinda curious right now, I've seen baby albino white-sides, but never an adult. Would you by any chance have a pic you could share with us? Thank you very much!

when she comes out I will be sure to get some pix of her. I've had alot of requests for pix of the adult. She is a really nice one. She has a pretty dark stripe compared to most of the ones that I have seen. She is a '00 animal & produced last season.

Thanks in advance - I'm really looking forward to those pix!