Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey, thanks for reading. I'd like a couple opinions on a caresheet I wrote. I feel it covers a lot of bp info that a new keeper would need, and a bit more. But I'm still not sure it's done. So if ya could check it out and give me some tips on what to add, possibly fix. That'd be awsome. I'd just like to make an error proof and reliable caresheet. It's split into sections for easy navigation.
http://ball-pythons.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=listarticles&secid=1

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Ball-Pythons.Net

Well, You have provided a wealth of good solid information that is mapped out nicely for easy navigation. However, I also noticed an aweful lot of incorrect or incomplete information that may be confusing to a young or new herper...those that I asume you caresheet is aimed towards. I know that no one likes to be disagreed with on this forum, but I'm hoping that you can take my critism without being offended....i mean no offence.
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In general I thought it was rambling, and difficult to follow in places. Right from the beginning you devoted about 250 words to describing how bad hot rocks are....and you're right, they are bad.

You have it stated that heat lamps are the best method to heat a tank. I would suggest perhaps that depending upon the new owners specific setup, heat lamps are more probably the worst method to heat a tank (excluding heat rocks)...though they are also more probably the easiest or most obvious way to heat a screen top tank. The picture of your setup is okay, but I think it would be better used to explain why your bp as never once had a complete shed.

You did mention heat pads, but did not mention them as a heating method that does not hinder humidity...as a lamp will. I did not notice heat panels mentioned, or heat tape or heat rope, etc. I think those methods should be duley noted in any caresheet, and perhaps even encouraged, as they are usually the best, though not as easy or obvious, method to heat any enclosure.

I was concerned to find only one short paragraph in the humidity section. You describe later on some very difficult and consistant problems with shedding. I came away thinking that bad sheds are very common, and quite normal for a ball python. I believe that there may be some misunderstanding of the requirements and expectations for a good healthy full shed. First, new owners should expect a good shed every time, and should strive to achieve this goal every cycle. A good shed = healthy snake, where as chronic bad sheds are a 100% positive identification that some basic husbandry details need to be adjusted. Give some good solid information on the NECESSITY for good humidity, and perhaps so solid methods of increasing humidity during shed cycles. I'm pretty sure you know how to make humid hides, or cover a screen to. This is a good opportunity to suggest using rubbermaids...I know you like them yourself. Humidity is generally a challenging requirement to nail down for the first time herper because of so many different variables. Explain how it works, and what the variables are....air circulation, heat lamps dry the air, etc.

I would also suggest different methods to treat bad sheds....or at least alternative options. I would never suggest touching your bp's eyes with a q-tip....i know that it is recommended by some people, but I would offer other options such as damp pillow case/towel, humid hides, etc before using a method that could possible injure the animal.

I didn't finish reading the 2nd half of the caresheet, because I thought maybe I had enough things to talk about already. So I apologize for providing some incomplete assistance. I hope you don't take any of my criticism personally. I enjoy being a member/lurker on your site.

Jeremy

but you do keep sticking your neck on the block...

wouldn't it be better to maybe learn more about the actual animal before starting a site with cobbled information from a bunch of different sources that is often innaccurate, misleading, or just plain goofy?

i can appreciate the effort, it looks like you have put a lot of time in, but you post some of the most simple beginner problems here on the forum, looking for answers, and your writing shows a lack of true understanding for the very snake you are representing yourself as an expert for. and really, when you site is "ballpythons.net", other newbies take what you write as expert information that is just as valid as that coming from real experts like RDR, vpi, or ballpython.com, after all, you do have a website called "ballpythons.net". that can be dangerous for other keepers, but especially dangerous for their animals.

i agree with the other follow up, in that your picture of a "proper setup" is a horrible example, and has a number of blatant problems, most significantly being the lack of understanding of how heat works, how the animals can use it, and the importance of having a proper heat gradient.

if you are just a guy/girl trying to learn all about balls while caring for your own few animals, that is no problem. the problem is that you are trying to guide others down a path that you don't know for sure yourself.

nothing can get you jump started into being a snake expert, i think you just need a lot more time and experience, before you start trying to guide others. random regurgitation of information is not the same as telling folks about what you actually know.

best of luck with your animals, this isn't a personal thing...
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

>>but you do keep sticking your neck on the block...
>>
>>wouldn't it be better to maybe learn more about the actual animal before starting a site with cobbled information from a bunch of different sources that is often innaccurate, misleading, or just plain goofy?
>>
>>i can appreciate the effort, it looks like you have put a lot of time in, but you post some of the most simple beginner problems here on the forum, looking for answers, and your writing shows a lack of true understanding for the very snake you are representing yourself as an expert for. and really, when you site is "ballpythons.net", other newbies take what you write as expert information that is just as valid as that coming from real experts like RDR, vpi, or ballpython.com, after all, you do have a website called "ballpythons.net". that can be dangerous for other keepers, but especially dangerous for their animals.
>>
>>i agree with the other follow up, in that your picture of a "proper setup" is a horrible example, and has a number of blatant problems, most significantly being the lack of understanding of how heat works, how the animals can use it, and the importance of having a proper heat gradient.
>>
>>if you are just a guy/girl trying to learn all about balls while caring for your own few animals, that is no problem. the problem is that you are trying to guide others down a path that you don't know for sure yourself.
>>
>>nothing can get you jump started into being a snake expert, i think you just need a lot more time and experience, before you start trying to guide others. random regurgitation of information is not the same as telling folks about what you actually know.
>>
>>best of luck with your animals, this isn't a personal thing...
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>>robyn@proexotics.com
>>
>>Pro Exotics Reptiles
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Rob

Well, you do make a few good points, but you seem to base them on a few misconceptions.

The first is that I'm a newbie and I often ask newbie questions. When in reality I rarely post new topics here, or even at my own site looking for newbie type help.

Another is that bp keeping has got to be 100% by the book. There is always room for variation, it doesn't have to be followed militarily.

I also wrote the part about heating tanks specifically because I knew a horde of newbies would be reading it. Most if not all typically have tanks, so what good is telling them about heating rubbermaids gonna do? Though now I probly will add a part about that. And fix it up. That really was a rough draft, I knew full well it wouldn't be anywhere near perfect having never really read it over to make sure it was all right. I did know it'd help any newbie keep their pets well.

Another is that I pass myself off as an expert. Well, if that's what it comes across as, i'm not putting it out that way. I do know a great deal about keeping ball pythons, and many other herps. I do know the books 100%, but often give myself room for variation in keeping them. How do you expect husbandry to improve if everyone is using the same methods and not experimenting slightly? I guess if trying to find alterior methods to better keep my herps is newbie-ish, ya I'm a newb. I plan on re-writting the caresheet with all the helpful tips I have received. It'll be more complete with better info. Thanks to you all for the help.
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Ball-Pythons.Net

breeders won't post advice. They get argued with by pompous amatuers. Somehow Robyn from Pro Exotics has shown to be a very experienced expert in the field. But someone ripping off another experienced company name and putting out false info as thinking out of the box husbandry for newbies is likely to cause pain and agony for allot of helpless animals. it should be illegal what you are doing.And you owe Robyn an apology

"variation" is not the same as "error" or bad husbandry. different cages need variable setups and adjustments, that is not the problem with your care info. the problem is that it is wrong/misleading/incomplete regardless of the setup.

the heating/setup/temp-gradient problem has NOTHING to do with Rubbermaids or a "breeder setup". your picture of a tank setup is horrible (horrible setup, horrible picture), and shows serious lack of depth and understanding of what a proper glass tank setup should be.

THAT is the problem. no doubt you have read info at a lot of sites, hopefully including ours, but that is just a base for learning, and comprehension comes with time. and time is not just a year or two, it is much longer than that to really be able to absorb on the level that you are trying to portray.

it would be better if you made the focus of your site more of a portal for ball python info, linking to other truly expert sites...

"i have found these sites to be excellent sources of Ball Python info: NERD, Ballpython.com, RDR..."

"i have found great caresheets here..."

"i have found interesting (meaning could be good, bad, or unknown) info here..."

some excellent photos, dry goods links, etc.

your reply, while brief, seems to convey that you do indeed feel well versed with ball pythons ("i know the books 100%". but the reality is truly different (the books themselves are typically poor and out of date, so that doesn't swing a lot of weight. the Sutherland's video is good though).

that is not a bad thing, just a bit humbling perhaps. you don't sound any different than 1000 other folks that are still truly newbies. being a newbie doesn't go away after working with an animal for a whole year. there is SO MUCH to learn. i continue to learn and grow every day, every year.

best of luck with your site, please take these posts as constructive criticism, and not as personal by any means, and you don't owe me any kind of apology, as was suggested. it ain't even like that, no sweat
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

I looked at your site from two perspectives. One as a graphic artist/website developer and the other as a reader of ball python caresheets.

First, you need to revise these sections into more concise statements. They are much too long, opinionated, and rambling. Your method and opinions about ball python husbandry is a bit overbearing. You can highlight certain phrases and use various fonts to get your point across. Then use a larger readable font. The one you selected makes it look like a huge wall of print that some people will just go cross-eyed over. Use shorter concise sentences. If you need longer explanations, use a link.

Second, as a reader of ball python caresheets, the photo of the half eaten ball python is offensive and would not attract novice ball python keepers to your site. It sensationalizes the point like a Jerry Springer show. Take it off the site. A better way to demonstrate that point would be to make a statement or two about feeding live vs pre-killed and have a link to that photo. This way the reader has a choice as to whether they want to view offensive photos. Don't get me wrong, I understand your point, but you can present material in a better way.

I agree with Robyn 100%! I've been keeping snakes for a number of years, anything from balls to burms. I disagree with alot of methods used for the caring of bp's on your site. You seem to be learning about bp's yourself, that's good but don't mislead new keepers with advice that isn't accurate. I'm a member of your site, I've tried to help the fellow members but some think that they know it all when they've only been keeping bp's for several months or a year at the most. So now when I post I just say something like "nice bp you got there" or "nice pics". Now, I must mention that some of the members do know what they're doing but they're counted. I like visiting your site to see pics but for advice I go to VPI or Dan & Colettes site. Anyways, good luck with everything.

If you read my other reply you'll see why it might come across as newbie-ish. But once that rough draft is re-done it'll be perfect. Thanks.
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Ball-Pythons.Net

i did find quite a bit of flat out wrong or erroneous information. i wont cover what everyone else has already said.

these are in no order at all.

improper humidity information. you stated 50% is fine because balls come from grasslands and savannahs. they do youre correct, however, in those areas they do come from, they also spend large amounts of time in rodent and other animal burrows. hunting, hiding, sleeping, alot of it occurs in burrows. burrows that are beneath the surfuce. they are usually quite a bit more humid than the surface. i keep all of my pythons with a humidity box, not just for shedding reasons, they all have one all the time, from balls to scrubs. they can choose to be humid or not so humid. but you made no mention of this.

the pic of a proper set up. i wont go into what others have covered again, but, that tank set up is very irresponsible. a few books stacked ontop of a tank is not secure. and to show a pic of this and say the set up is good is asking for trouble. being responsible means keeping a public that largely dislikes and fears snakes from being exposed to them against their will. this means from stupid human tricks to escaped snakes. this is something i think most more expierienced herpetoculturists have a firm grasp on, notice i said most, not all. but i think its also something more expierienced herpers need to instill in newer herpers!

under heat and humidity you left out thermometers. not a biggie, i found it mentioned elsewhere. but, no where did i find mention of a reliable thermostat! i cannot say enough about thermostats, its much less hassle than trying to move lamps around or elevate cages. tho they dont make things hotter, or dissipate hot spots, id rather not be constantly fussing with things i know i can keep better control over. less fuss means more time to enjoy snakes, which is what we all want, but ive noticed that newer herpers want it more.

burns! they have nothing to do with intelligence! i hate when people say snakes are unintelligent. stop attributing human behaviors and belifes to non-human animals! ball pythons do not get burned by hot rocks because they arent smart enough to move. snakes in the wild, away from human roads, usually bask to warm up. ive heard it said for atleast a decade, snakes dont generally sense heat well from below, not just balls, but all snakes. zoo med has the warnings about balls and hot rocks to cover themselves. that way when something goes wrong they are safe, and not liable. its that simple. thats why they do the same thing with heat pads, only for use on glass. glass doesnt melt or burn easily. so again theyre safe. but glass does shatter, and if the heater finds itself malfunctioning on wood after the glass bottom has broken, theyre still liable. but burns have nothing to do with a lack of intelligence on the snakes part, its more lack of education on the owners part.

and the last issue i have was with feeding. it is not as cut and dry as you make it. live dead and frozen rodents all smell differently. a scent based predator like a ball python, blood python, or any snake, can detect things like this, long before our human noses can. ive kept reptiles for a very long time now, ive kept nothing but snakes for the last 3 or 4 years. and of those snakes most are pythons, ball, bloods, carpets, white lips, scrubs, retics. id say i got most started on frozen from the first feeding in my care. with little or no fuss. some have been picky. my ball python would run from anything frozen or prekilled at first. now, shell take frozen as soon as i put it in her cage. i have a baby blood python that will not even look at frozen or prekilled. ive tried dozens of times, with many tricks. but, he is steadfast right now. i do not like to feed live, but i do not like to starve a snake even more than i do not like to feed live! when the right protocals are taken the risk of feeding picky snakes live are lessened. granted a mouse or rat can bite a snake faster than i can get in there, but a single bite is less traumatizing than being eatten alive. i agree, never leave a live rodent with a snake unsupervised, even with shy feeders.

thats it.

J
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Jaymz
"got a bowlin ball in my stomache, got a desert in my mouth. figures that my courage would choose to sell out now..."

on safety. stacking a few books ontop of a cage is not secure, at all. there needs to be some way to keep the cage securely closed and the snake firmly inside the cage. locks, cage clips, whatever you like. but stacking books on top of a tank is simply put, inadequate and irresponsible.

J
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Jaymz
"got a bowlin ball in my stomache, got a desert in my mouth. figures that my courage would choose to sell out now..."

I agree with what has been stated thus far, especially by Robyn. I believe that first-hand experience counts for a lot, and through your own statements on your caresheet, your husbandry is lacking. I expect good sheds from my snakes - it doesn't always happen here in MN in the winter, but I realize that if a bad shed occurs, I need to work harder to maintain the humidity.

There are quite a few problems with your content. For example, making a statement about WC snakes not eating mainly because they are wild-caught doesn't give any explaination as to why a WC snake wouldn't eat. If you had proceeded to discuss how WC adults can have problems adjusting to being kept captive and may be to stressed to eat, etc., it would make more sense. Adding something on how to adjust the environment to decrease the stress level would also help, because an aquarium is definately not the way to do it - unless you cover up a lot of the glass. As I used to tell my students, if you can't back something up, maybe it shouldn't be included.

Many of the other points I found issues with were covered by others. Sorry for all the nitpicking, but another example is stating that frozen rodents are available through rondentpro.com. This may be true, but if your site is for newbies as you stated earlier, I have doubts that someone with a single ball python would like to pay the amount of shipping necessary to get way too many mice/rats that their snake may not even eat. This isn't the only option. Petco sells frozen, as do many other companies. Your wording makes it sound like Rodentpro is the ONLY place to buy frozen. This isn't the only place where you state only one possible solution.

These are just a few of the things I had problems with. Another issue is your grammer. You need to be concise and in addition have someone proofread and edit your work. This is a must if you want to be taken seriously.

I can see that you have a lot of interest in snakes and that is a great thing. Hopefully the hobby will bring you a lot of joy. Personally, I believe that you may still be at a point where a better option would be to provide links to other caresheets. There is nothing wrong with that. Nobody's born an expert.

Take care and good luck with everything.