Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've been perusing the forum and have read about alot of problems with keeping hot snakes in Florida, but nothing ever gave me what the official status is. So I have grown very curious, is it legal to own a hot snake in florida? And if so what kind of work do you have to put in to own one legally. I have worked at Indian Reservations before and have been informed about the 1000 hour rule, but does this even still apply? I'm just wondering and would appreciate any and all answers that pertain to the questions at hand and any related subject. Thanks ahead of time.
-Greg

At present it is legal to own a Venomous snake in Florida if you are of legal age, can document 1,000 hours of instruction under a licenced keeper, have letters of recomendation from two licensed keepers and your facility passes inspection by Game & Freshwater Fish Com. The fee for this license for many years was $5.00.

In a controversial move, last year, the fee was increased by 2,000% to one hundred dollars. Other fees were dramatically increased as well. this was backed by people from some of our Herpetological societies, some of whom thought that the money raised would go directly in F&G,s budget. In our state the money goes to the state treasury and is budgeted to the various departments from there. At this time, we have a Governor who has demonstrated an anti-enviromental additude so guess where the money won't go.

Florida is lucky enought to have Venom One which supplies emergency care (and acts as our anti-venom bank). Recently however, there has been some controversy on this forum over the issue of personal anti-venom banks.

Those who favor this concept mention (justifiably) personal responsibility and they make a good point. However, they also proclaim that if you cannot afford to keep a venom bank, then you shouldn't keep venomous snakes. This is rediculous as it not only makes the keeping prohibative to people with (blue collar) incomes, but would also spread thin the supply of AV available, as people compete with hospitals for a limited amount of (quality) antivenom, so their collections can be legal. Most of this stock would expire unused on someone's back shelf instead of being where it might be needed. How many people do you think would give up their AV supply knowing the expense and difficulty in replacing it? Not many (apologies to those of you who have a conscience, but a lot of people don't). For many keepers the (average)three year shelf life of such a supply would mean a large replacement expense that many could not afford.

Another proposition is that of a central bank with each keeper contributing to a fund from which supplies could be purchased and stored.

Unfortunatly, the implimentation of this "Only those who can afford" thinking could be the reduction of legal venomous keepers at a time when we need every available voice to stop some very repressive laws that are being proposed.

I know I am going to draw flak from a couple of people who post here for this, but that is the plain and simple truth of the situation and controversy here. But one final thought;

Being wealthy enough to buy all the antivenom deemed necessary does not make someone a more responsible keeper. Any fool can have money and still be careless and stupid.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I tried to express pretty much the same sentiment in my poll below, but you definitely did better than me on the wording. Yours was probably what I was shooting for. Like I've said, it'd be great if everyone could win the lottery and keep all the AV they need, but the reality is that it is out of most keepers' hands. I completely agree that having it or not having it does not affect how responsible a keeper is. At least knowing where the AV is located is about as much as most people can do. Something else I thought of just now....I'll use my taipans as an example. Let's say I were to dish out the many thousands of dollars it would take to stock at least 10 vials (10 @ the proposed $1,200 each would be a whopping $12,000). Once the av is obtained, then the person obtains the snake(s). Now what is that person supposed to do if his/her snakes die for one reason or another, because after all, even extremely healthy cb or wc animals can just up and die without any warning. Is the keeper supposed to just say oh well and absorb the cost of the AV, for in this case these snakes don't just pop up sale all the time? They certainly aren't supposed to sell the AV to anyone else, and if they did and were caught, they'd probably face federal jail time. That situation just popped into my head, and I've yet to see anyone address it. In the case of Oxyuranus, with a 3 year shelf life, what if it takes you a year and a half or more to actually find another specimen? You would then have to spend the money on the snake and very shortly be looking at replacement cost.

I'm all for an EMT group, similar to the FL one, to form around the Mid-area of the country. As it has been said, flying AV from FL to other states can sometimes take too much time. So what if a few were formed around the country in key locations? I'd certainly be willing to pay out $500 or better per year if needed to help stock my local bank. What did it take for FL's unit to form? Is there any likelihood that others could form elsewhere, or is FL just too much of a hotspot for exotic venomous that they basically had to form it?
-Chance

Hi Chance,
I am Mary Ann, Frank's other half, and a student of venom toxinology. The way I understand it, Venom One is a special unit which works within the auspices of the Miami Dade Fire Rescue Department. They are schedule to visit our local herp society as a guest speaker for Feb. 2004. Venom One originated to help organize several of the local hospitals into a unit for antivenin supplies that they could access to treat victims of snakebite here in Florida as well as other places in the U.S. and sometimes out of the country. Ernie flew down to Mexico just last week to help a victim.
You can access the site for Venom One for additional information, or if you send me your email address, I can ask Ernie to contact you directly about setting up other venom units around the country including your area.
Please advise if I can be of additional assistance,
Mary Ann
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Hi, Mary Ann---
Can anyone attend your meetings (I'm from Minnesota)? I'd certainly like to see Venom One's presentation, if possible. Thanks!
Sincerely,
Bill Huseth

Ooops! I thought you were living in Missouri until I read Frank's
post. I'll pass on V1's presentation.
Bill H.

Too Bad....You woul have been most welcome! Mary Ann
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Chance and Frank.
If you buy a snake and antivenom, your snake dies, what do you do with the antivenom. It's a risk right?
So you are willing to risk your life and the publicity by not having your own antivenom. But not the money to have the AV?
So what do you think your local zoo does? Buys the AV risks the snakes dying, or worse yet someone else uses it and can't afford to replace it?
It's called life people, risks, venomous snake keeping involves risks. like I said below "you would have others take all the risk and expense for you???? How childish.
You are right frank, just because a person has money doesn't make them responsible. What they do with it does however.
For those of us that don't make enough money to buy them simply put can't afford them. Much like a Ferrari, most of us will just never have one. so it should be self imposed restrictions to not keep them if we can't afford the treatment!
If you are so worried about 12,000.00 and how you would afford it? Do you have any idea what treatment costs for snakebite even without AV involved? So if not being able to afford 12,000.00 for serum is what worries you I guarantee you will not be able to afford a minor snakebite!
Some things people should just refrain from doing, and if you can't afford ALL aspects of something than you should just visit your local zoo.
How about the required pad locks in Florida Frank? What about those, what if someone spent all their money on a cage and snake but couldn't afford the padlock.... is that O.K. and Responsible in your mind?
Crazy!

The regulation is for a lock...Not necessarily a Pad lock. For that matter, If your Hot room is escape proof (having passed inspection as such) and the doors double locked, individual cage locks are not required. Get your facts straight.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Answer the question Frank. If you can't lock your cages or rooms is that still O.K. responsible behavior?

I await your answers as I leave for Florida Tomarrow morning and won't be able to continue this lovely little chat with you.

This is supposed to be an intelligent question, or are you still grasping at straws to try and get to me? Try saying something factual to back your arguements.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

x

Why would I leave my cages unlocked? That is one dumb question, which is why I did not answer it. You are breaking down into a whole rediculous frame of rationalizations. But then, as I recall you are all about appearing to win so here....write what you want.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

>>So what do you think your local zoo does? Buys the AV risks the snakes dying, or worse yet someone else uses it and can't afford to replace it?

Antivenom is not 99% of a zoo's reptile budget the way it would be for Chance. The two scenarios don't seem remotely related to me.

There is no "antivenom" for having your head bitten off by a lion, but zoos keep them and keepers regularly come in contact with them (in some zoos). Is it irresponsible for them to keep them?

>>It's called life people, risks, venomous snake keeping involves risks.

Yes, and life is full of risks. I don't have a lightening arrestor on my car and I don't wear a helmet when I take a shower. Am I irresponsible for taking these risks?

>>For those of us that don't make enough money to buy them simply put can't afford them. Much like a Ferrari, most of us will just never have one. so it should be self imposed restrictions to not keep them if we can't afford the treatment!

Yeah, but what if Ferrari's cost $10,000 and insurance for them cost $1,000,000 a year? Tell me you wouldn't buy one if you could get away with driving it without insurance.

>>How about the required pad locks in Florida Frank? What about those, what if someone spent all their money on a cage and snake but couldn't afford the padlock.... is that O.K. and Responsible in your mind?

If padlocks cost $1000 each I would probably make do with wire ties and a big warning sign on the door. Would you pay $1000 each for padlocks? We're not talking about spending 1% of the price of the snake on something you use every day. We're alking about spending 1000-10000% of the price of the snake on something that will probably be thrown away when it expires.
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Larry D. Fishel
Side effects may include paralysis
and death but are generally mild.

Ah but I wouldn't drive it without insurance....because If I had an accident and hurt myself or someone else I wouldn't be able to afford the medical bills....

It's called responsibility.

And yes if a zoo or circus had free contact with a lion, that would also be irresponsible...

Look at Sigfried and Roy.....

Larry,
I understand that you volunteer in a zoo, which zoo, I forget.
But what would you do if they chose not to invest in serum?

Stop relying on everyone else to pay for your mistakes.
It's that simple.

>>Ah but I wouldn't drive it without insurance....because If I had an accident and hurt myself or someone else I wouldn't be able to afford the medical bills....
>>
>>It's called responsibility.

Let me try this another way... How much auto insurance do you have? $1M? $5M? If not, how are you going to cover a disabling injury to someone else? Do you have that level of insurance? Do you have a few million laying around? Don't tell me you stay at home on the off chance that you might hit someone and cripple them?

>>And yes if a zoo or circus had free contact with a lion, that would also be irresponsible...
>>
>>Look at Sigfried and Roy.....

I don't think Chance is planning to free-handle his taipans...let alone for hours a day, 300 days a year. Nor are they capable of leaping 20 feet through the air, running him down at full sprint or physically overpowering him.

>>Larry,
>>I understand that you volunteer in a zoo, which zoo, I forget.
>>But what would you do if they chose not to invest in serum?

Actually it's a wildlife refuge and they can't possibly afford antivenom for 40 species, so I take the risk for the love of the snakes and I am very careful.

>>Stop relying on everyone else to pay for your mistakes.
>>It's that simple.

I would hope that if I make a mistake that I will eventually be able to pay the bill.

As I think I've said here before (might have been on VR), people generally expect car drivers to carry insurance, but they don't expect them to buy a respirator and a hospital bed just in case they have a serious accident. If I could buy insurance to cover the cost of being bitten by my own pet snake which was reasonably based on the cost and probability of being bitten (as is required by law for most types of insurance) I would probably be willing to pay for that. If someone can show me that I am wildly out of touch with the probabilities and the cost per year per (reasonably careful) keeper is in the tens of thousands then I'll take back everything I've said and agree with you.

As long as I'm babbling... I think you and I have both mentionsed that in most cases the antivenom is probably a minority of the cost of a bite. So, why are we so fixated on the keeping of antivenom if none of us can afford the bill even if we have AV? Just a stray thought?
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Larry D. Fishel
Side effects may include paralysis
and death but are generally mild.

The answer is to your stray thought is this which is the point I have been trying to make.

AV is a minor cost compared to the whole medical expense.
The fact is that if you don't have yours you have to use someone elses, thus leaving them with no serum for themselves.

Thats stealing in my book. If we asked every zoo curator "how many times have you sent out your serum? then asked them how many times have you recieved payment for that serum.
Then I think you would understand.

If you can't afford the av then you can't afford to participate in the hobby.

Why is that hard to understand?

Don't use everyone elses treatment!

Larry, Like everything else in life you can supply a great quantity of "what ifs?" Look at TA. There also is a limit to the precausions one can take and then you just give up trying because you can't cover every single "what if". There is a limit.
The whole Padlock question is dumb, because I lock my cages and my Hot Room. So what is the point of asking what I would do if I didn't? It is a silly question that TA asked to divert everyone from the fact that he has not been able to answer my statements with any thing except sarcasm and "What Ifs."
He even launched an attack against Venom One which, by the way has a website so feel free to check my facts. Now there is something TA has not even offered.
Anyhow Larry, don't feel left out. Looks like he just attacked you too.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

>>Larry, don't feel left out. Looks like he just attacked you too.

Hmmm... I think you're looking a little too hard. I believe the last two lines were a general comment, not directed specifically at me if that's what you're talking about...

I also don't remember anyone attacking venom 1, which I think I would remember...wait, what were we talking about?...
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Larry D. Fishel
Side effects may include paralysis
and death but are generally mild.

If you check the other thread of this debate(?) a few posts below, TA said that Venom One had a markup on their AV prices so they probably wouldn't tell people that keeping it at home would be feasable for that reason...He insists that this group- which is part of Metro-Dade Fire Rescue is a business (but then he insists that the City of Miami is a business too). You will find his comments if you scroll down to GEE FRANK...I'm Shocked. TA has made a series of interesting comments on this subject down there.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

So because someone has a website makes them a professional??
No I didn't attack Larry, I answered him as he answered me.
I have no problem with him, nor you Frank. Other than the way you vehemenently believe that someone else should carry the responsibility for a private keepers mistake.
Many times when I use the word "you" it is implied to others than just you, even if I am answering you.
In Florida you do have an AV bank. Great what about all the other states that allow venomous keeping with no AV bank?
They rely on the zoos and many of the staff in many of the zoo's around the country are personal friends of mine. Can you see why I get pissed when you say. "that it is O.K. to not stock your own AV because a zoo has it"
That sir is negligence.

I answered all of your little side comments with reason and fact. What did you answer with.
It's too hard.....It's too expensive...WAH grow up

Since the reference to a website I made refered to Venom One, you are suggesting that they are not professionals? I suggested a course that would allow you to check up on what Venom One is yourself. Or is it you that is too lazy (or opinionated to check your allegations?
I really don't care who your friends are. That is your business not mine. You questioned my sources of information and I supplied you answers including my wife's credentials. All I know about you is that you are an employee of a roadside attraction. Gee I was too once (LION COUNTRY) and held the same position there that you do at your "Zoo"..
So please stop the posturing. Your no better than anyone here.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Oh...TA. I live in Florida. Venom one has it. Not the Zoo.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Venom 1 access....great herping....great climate (IMO), better pay for school teachers. But you know, I bet that even when I move there, I can post on here and still get jumped on Ah well, such is life...lol. Frank, you've continued to make some great points all throughout this thread. Obviously it's not going to be possible to convince the other side through our very logical arguments, as the other side is just going to keep countering with "you're risking everyone's life!!! aahhh!!!" etc etc etc. Funny, to me, I thought I was risking my own life. We're speaking of likelihoods here. In my case, very few keepers in this country have Oxyuranus. Even very few zoos have them. The likelihood of me taking a hit and needing to "borrow" some zoo's AV (and yes, any AV I used would of course be paid for, I don't know where this idea of skipping out on a bill comes from, but in my state, they don't typically just let people get away with that). What are the chances that someone else in MY area is also going to be bitten by a taipan? I'd say slim to none. If so, the AV would be flown in from an outside source. What is the likelihood then that someone else is going to be bitten by a taipan elsewhere and not have AV for it? Much slimmer than the first. So when you use probabilities in your argument, at least make them sound. For example, it's likely that at some point in a hot keepers "keeping" lifespan, he/she will be bitten by some sort of hot snake. This is my own formulation based on speaking with keepers that have kept snakes for a very long time. Does that mean it's going to happen? Of course not. It just means that the odds aren't in the keepers favor. However, all it takes are the necessary and proper precautions and you greatly decrease those odds. Ah well, all this is just conjecture and heresay. I'm not going to argue this topic as it's obvious there will be no winner. However, the points that have been made by you Frank, Larry, and maybe even myself have not been discredited by those that have read them. On the contrary, I bet they got a lot of people thinking, I know they did me. Of course none of us are advocating not keeping AV if you can, just defending ourselves for not keeping when we can't. Anyway, Frank, if and when I make it down to FL, I'll definitely have to come by your place and meet you in person. You'd of course always be welcome at mine.
-Chance Duncan
River Valley Snakes

Frank,
We all can tell when you know you can't be right at something, you get so ..... flustered. It's great.

Shows your true sides.

Chance, it is risking someone elses life when you use their serum. Period. If you were as experienced as you say you are, you would know that AV is not that easily or quickly replaced.
So the whole time you recover or die from a Taipan bite, the zoo that you take it from would be without,
Why don't you call the 2 or 3 sources in the country that stock ENOUGH AV for a Taipan bite and ask them if its O.K. to use theirs. Go ahead try it.
More places in the country than 2 or 3 carry Aussie Poly, but 1 or 2 vials is not going to cover it.
So please do move to Florida, before you endanger any zoo staff.

Frank, I know you are in Florida, the "you" I used was generally speaking not particularly you in Florida.
But your arguments are so loosely held together because of Venom One. That you are still a danger to yourself. Maybe you should stick to pics in books.

Frank, I am not better than anyone here, except those people including yourself that think it is O.K. to take someone elses hard earned AV to save your own skin.

So stop getting your feelings so hurt and get some real facts to bring to the table. Or not, I know how opinionated you are. So see ya next time you start whining about something someone says.

Hope to see ya in the sunshine state over the next 2 weeks.
I'm coming to visit.

My understanding is that as I am writing this TA is on his way to Florida (Quote: Coming to visit). I can't see him not checking this forum for two weeks so I will post this information for him.

The Sawgrass Herp Society meets on the first Weds of each month at 8pm. It is located on the SW corner of Lyons road and Atlantic Blvd at Fern Forest Park (in Broward County). Ernie from Venom One is our scheduled speaker.

If you get to read this TA please drop in. I am curious as to what Ernie will say after I show him your posts about Venom One. I am certain he (and I) will have some interesting conversation for you.

To Chance, Come on down anytime! We do have one of the better "herp" states, inspite of our "iresponsibly stubborn" (lol) natures.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

"In my case, very few keepers in this country have Oxyuranus. Even very few zoos have them. The likelihood of me taking a hit and needing to "borrow" some zoo's AV (and yes, any AV I used would of course be paid for, I don't know where this idea of skipping out on a bill comes from, but in my state, they don't typically just let people get away with that). What are the chances that someone else in MY area is also going to be bitten by a taipan? I'd say slim to none."

In rebuttal to this statement you made all I have to say is the fallowing. Your chances of being hit by lightning are slim to none, right? Does this mean you should run out into a thunderstorm with a lightning rod simply because the odds are in your favor? I think not.

Your attempted justification of ignorance is truly amazeing. Thank god you dont live in my state.

Air on the side of caution, not egotistical stupidity.

Regards I guess,
J

Terry,
stfu 99% of all the people that own hot snakes have no av.
When they get bit the zoo supplies the av its been that way for a long time.

so quit the wine terry every time you post you get flamed!
just think zoos would have no say if AV was more availible so
Terrys just using the position for his argument.

same old story terry you got anyting NEW!

do no wrong zoo boys remember terry does not pay out of his own small paychek for av but he acts like he does?

i work at a zoo and it sure did suck last year when we used our saimr to help treat a guy who had been bit by an egyptian cobra, hey bud maybe if he was a self inoculator we wouldnt have had that problem, too bad were not all as smart as you

have a good day
RAS

Ok...Since you are a Zoo person. And I presuming you are in the USA. My question is. How much of the antivenom you guys keep expires before it is needed (by American victims). Since serious snakebites are not a common event here, I'm sure there is a surplus that has to be disposed of unused (unless of course your Zoo is keeping such minimal quantites on hand that you would have to procur elsewhere in an emergency).
This being the case, isn't it better that it go to some use instead of being trashed?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I've read all these lines and feel compelled to respond to the last one.
Everyone here has made some good points and some bad ones. But as an old timer I don't keep venomous snakes anymore. But would like to comment on this...

"Since you are a Zoo person. And I presuming you are
in the USA. My question is. How much of the antivenom you guys keep
expires before it is needed (by American victims). Since serious
snakebites are not a common event here, I'm sure there is a surplus that
has to be disposed of unused (unless of course your Zoo is keeping such
minimal quantites on hand that you would have to procur elsewhere in an
emergency). This being the case, isn't it better that it go to some use
instead of being trashed? "

The point the zoo people are trying to make, is that they never know when they might need it. So no, it would not be better that it was used. It's much better disposed of.....
It's one of those expenses that they have to buy in the hopes that they never need it.

I'm trying not to get involved, so please don't take that badly, I just wanted to add my thought, hope you can give it some thought too.

The question was more directed to a Ceratin Zoo curator who we all figure depends on his own Zoo's supply (instead of buying his own) and then cries about the rest of us wasting Zoo supplies and condems us for not having a home supply. of course he would deny this so.....

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I don't know the certain zoo curator and I don't know you rearfang. I read all the posts and taphillip, said in his first that he didn't keep snakes because he couldn't afford the antivenin. So I don't think he is condemming you on one hand and doing it on the other. If you are suggesting that he rely's on his zoo's antivenin while working...that would only make sense.
Honestly I think you both made good points and some pretty harsh attacks on each other. There must be some prior animosity between you two?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the main points are this...

taphillip says---use your own so not to use up a zoo's unexpectadly leaving said zoo without a way to treat their own staff.

I think hes right. makes perfect sense. the whole responsibility thing.

You say---it's beyond most keepers means to stock their own.

I think you are right. Makes perfect sense.

He says---if you can't afford it don't keep those snakes. so as to not risk someone elses life if you make a mistake. Keep others that are less expensive to buy antivenin for.

Makes perfect sense.

You say---it's your right to keep any snake that you feel qualified to work with.

Your rights stop when you begin to infringe on anothers rights.

That may not apply to you in Florida, but what about the rest of the states?

Florida had one mamba bite last year, Miami/Dade probably used all their antivenin up on that one,( I don't know that) what would have happened if there was another bite at that same relative time? They would have borrowed a zoo's or the person would have died.

Just a thought, I very rarely get involved in any of the discussions, so hopefully this doesn't make you or the curator pissed at me.

The arguement about using up a Zoo's supply may well hold water in South Dakota, but here in Florida we have created a system that works. The bottom line is that when we get bit, we pay for the anti venom used. TA thinks we are all going to gyp the state out of paying, But that arguement could be used for any kind of emergency from car crashes on down. It is not practical to have almost 1,000 people in (Florida alone) having AV stocks for very specific species. Think of the time lost in trying to locate and obtain a rare AV when it is in a private stock rather than at a central location. that could easily cost lives. Plus the average keeper does not have the skills to properly prepare or administer AV. So they still would have to wait for a doctor who is familiar with it.

That there is bad blood between me and TA has more to do with his seeking me (my posts)out than anything else. I am bothered by the fact that I post opinions and back up what I am saying with facts (point in example; My wife's credentials). Ta chooses to ignore me anytime I answer him with information and continues to assault me with, "What if" scenarios and attacks on my character. If you read his posts you see very little fact and a lot of opinion. Sadly, he seems to be one of those people who can only see in posts...the information he wants to see-to use for his advantage and ignores the rest.

As to his keeping or not keeping venomous at home. It seemed to me he did mention in an earlier thread that he did, but I cannot confirm this. In any case he is veiwing the Zoo supply as his personal safeguard. it is easy to cry that other's have to pay when you don't have to yourself.

Venom One did not run out of AV over that mamba case. they are much better stocked than that (as we are in regular comunication with Ernie from V1 you can take that as gospel).

As to personal responsibility. I am strict with my own guidelines for safe keeping of what I have. I limit myself to those species that I can safely house and work with. My house is snake proofed so there is no chance of them getting out of my hot room (unless someone takes an axe and chops thru my door). We have a good system in Florida. It would be great if other states would adopt this.

As to your concern. I post answers to questions on this forum because I try to give back some of what I have experienced and learned thru my years as a keeper. I am allways eager to hear new and different ideas, because that is how I learn. My mistake with TA was to ask him for some info. he has perverted it to imply that I don't do my own research (his way of assuming an advantage). I always welcome questions and opinions that help to shed some light on an issue. I do ask that a debate (if there is one) stays on the subject and does not become personal.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."