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I still don't know what happened. Any ideas

nickstark Jan 14, 2004 12:28 PM

Over a year ago I bought an adult pair of borneo blood pythons from a very well respected breeder. When I brought them I housed the female with a another female that I had for over three years that was a very healthy snake. I housed the male seperately. I housed the females in 6' vision and the male in a 4' vision both had appropriate temps and water tubs big enough for them to soak in. Less than three weeks after I bought them I was doing my daily check and found the new female looking very emaciated and I took her to my vet immediately. She was given an IV and was kept at the vet over night and was found dead the following morning. All of the test were done, no IBD, no parasite, nothing. Two days later the same thing happend with male and nine day later my long term female fell ill also and died. Tissue samples were taken of all snakes and the only thing that they could find were elevated protein levels. With the loss of $800 worth of snakes and a $360 vet bill I am still trying to figure out what happend.

Anybody have a similar experience or any ideas on the cause.

Replies (8)

wideglide Jan 14, 2004 02:01 PM

new animals no matter who they come from.

I don't have an answer for you and the above was not for you as you obviously know better. Sorry that happened, though.
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Rob

ballcrew777 Jan 14, 2004 05:46 PM

do you keep any other herps?

worldsocold Jan 14, 2004 07:06 PM

I'm new to bloods but here you go. I know certain beddings will do strange things. Also Check the room for airborne bacteria, a possibility? If it happen to all snakes look for what you have the same in all of there cages and try the breeder and see what he had them in, etc. I hope this helps or gives you ideas.

Pat

wideglide Jan 15, 2004 11:05 AM

If you're asking me then yes, I've got two beardies and a ball python.
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Rob

nickstark Jan 15, 2004 05:30 PM

Yes, I have about fifty other snakes as well as a few turtles and a couple lizards. Some lessons are harder learned than others and I have quarantined everything since this happend. I did not quarantine the female because I bought the pair as surplus breeders from one of the best known blood breeders in late August and was planning on breeding them as a group in December. Even putting the females together doesn't explain why the male also fell ill. I took the snakes to Dr. Klingenberg who is one of the best reptile best and knowns a lot about reptile diseases. He took samples from each of the snakes and sent them off to be tested. There wasn't any bacteria, parasites, viruses, or IBD found in any of the snakes. The only thing that was found was an elevated level of protein. Since this happend I haven't had any other snakes become ill.

wideglide Jan 16, 2004 08:03 AM

Well you would think if there's something to be found Dr Klingenberg would definitely have found it.

Since I've only had about 8 mos experience with any type of reptile pet the only thing I can say about quarantine is I'm very appreciative of those who have expressed the problems they've had when not quarantining an animal.

I've read numerous times even well respected breeders have inadvertently sold animals with a new, unknown virus and killed people's collections. I don't think it's a lack of responsibility on the breeders part but just something that is unknown that pops up.

But like I said before none of what I said was for you. I figured you were the last one that needed to hear it. I was only pointing it out for anyone who was maybe unaware or leary of the quarantine idea. Honestly, I can tell you I was leary of the whole quarantine thing when I first got into this hobby but not anymore.

BTW, good luck on finding out what happened.
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Rob

jordanm Jan 16, 2004 01:01 PM

Nick,
Out of curiousity who sold you the snake, if you dont want to post you can email me, I'm just curious.
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"It's my snake, I trained it, so I'm going to eat it!" - Mad Max, The Road Warrior

googo151 Jan 14, 2004 08:34 PM

Hey,
For what it's worth, it might be a good idea to include this here, as it might serve others to look for or understand what IBD, is and what the symtoms of it are both symtomatically and when it is present asymtomatically.

Inclusion Body Disease (IBD) Inclusion body disease (IBD) has been increasingly diagnosed in boas and pythons -"boids". It is believed to be a retrovirus. The way it affects these two groups of snakes is slightly different but the long term effects are the same: the disease is terminal in those animals who exhibit symptoms of the disease. Pythons, although their symptoms may be somewhat less, are just as affected as boas. There are asymptomatic carriers, so the fact that a boa or python within an infected collection does not show signs of the illness should not be taken to mean that it is immune to it. Boas are most associated with being asymptomatic carriers. Signs of infection in boas include central nervous system disorders such as paralysis, being unable to right itself when turned over, "star-gazing", inability to strike or constrict. Other signs include chronic regurgitation, extreme weight loss, respiratory infections, and dysecdysis due to the inability to control body movements enough to rub off the old skin. The disease is rapidly fatal in young and juvenile boas, typified by rapid onset of flaccid paralysis. In pythons, the disease progresses much more rapidly than in boas. Along with the above symptoms (excluding the chronic regurgitation), pythons also tend toward infectious stomatitis - "mouth rot", heightened or exaggerated reflex responses, disorientation (which may be precipitated by the onset of central blindness) and loss of motor coordination. What causes this disease? Intracytoplasmic eosinophilic inclusion bodies have been identified in the epithelial cells of the kidneys and pancreas. Neuronal degeneration and lesions form in the spinal cord and brain, and may be accompanied by myelin degeneration and nerve damage. Damage to the spleen is also found, with that organ being grossly atrophied and fibrosed. Electron microscopy has found that the organism falls into the retrovirus category. The snake mite, Ophionyssus natricis, has been found in collections in which IBD has occurred, but it is not implicated in all cases of infection. As this has been identified as a viral entity, it may spread like a virus, through contact between infectious organisms (such as housing an infected snake with a previously healthy one) or through airborne aerosolized secretions, or by the keeper passing secretions from one snake or enclosure to another during the course of handling or cleaning (when strict quarantine and cleaning procedures are not followed). There is at this time no treatment for the disease and, as it is at this time always fatal and highly contagious, euthanasia is the course of action recommended. Even if the snake can be kept alive through supportive measures (hydration and force-feeding), the damage to the nerves, brain, spinal cord and internal organs is so great and progressive, that, life is only prolonged with an ever decreasing quality and increasing pain. Due to the increasing incidence of this disease, it cannot be stated or urged strongly enough to QUARANTINE ALL NEW BOIDS, upon acquisition for at least 3-6 months, and to take precautions when visiting other collections, pet stores and expos/swaps.

Frequently asked questions: Q: Can the disease be diagnosed in live snakes? A: Yes...through blood testing ("For hematologic and plasma biochemical determinations, 0.6 ml of blood was placed in each of three microtainer tubes containing lithium heparin. All samples were submitted for hematological and plasma biochemical determinations within 30 min after collection. Whole blood examination included RBC, WBC, differential WBC, and determination of PCV, and Hb concentrations. Plasma biochemical analyses included determination of concentrations of sodium, potassium, chloride, carbon dioxide, urea nitrogen (BUN), creatinine, calcium, glucose, phosphorus, total bilirubin, cholesterol, uric acid, total protein, albumin, globulin, alkaline phosphatase, SGOT, SGPT. For comparative purposes, clinically affected boa constrictors were arbitrarily categorized as either acutely affected (2 months following onset). Acutely affected snakes had leukocytosis, relative lymphocytosis, lower total protein and globulin values, and significantly higher SGOT values than did chronically affected snakes.

To determine the actual presence or absence of inclusion bodies requires biopsies of organ tissue for analysis. Q: How long in minimum/maximum is the lifespan of an individual who exhibits symptoms of the disease? A: It apparently fatal to all but the asymptomatic carriers. Time of death varies between individuals, and pythons tend to die faster than boas. Based on the research in the Schumacher article (quoted above for the blood values), some boas at least are hanging on for several months. Whether they should be allowed to hang on, in light of the very obvious distress and destruction of organs and CNS, is another matter... Q: What are the living conditions of this virus - how will he react to heat or cold, what kind of disinfection works?...

A: At this point, they don't know. To quote Bennett: "No treatment has been shown to be successful for this viral disease. It may be mild in boas and may go undiagnosed. It is, therefore, best to prevent exposure of pythons to boas. Schumacher, in the same source (Mader) states: "At present there is no treatment. Strict quarantine procedures should be followed when introducing newly acquired snakes (especially boas) into an established collection. Once the disease has been diagnosed, euthanasia of affected snakes is the only way to prevent the infection from spreading." Schumacher states that snakes in public and private collections in the U.S., Africa and Europe have been diagnosed with this disease. One of his references is the article I cited in above; the other is Schumacher, J: Atiologische und pathologische Untersuchungen uber die sog. EinschluBkorperchenerkrankung der Riesenschlangen (Boidae). Vet Med Diss (Munich), 1992. Caresheet by Melissa Kaplan.

Sources Bennett, R. Avery. (1996) Neurology. In Reptile Medicine and Surgery. Douglas Mader, DVM, ed. pp. 141-148. W.B. Saunders, Philadelphia PA. Done, Lisa B. (1996). Postural Abnormalities. In Reptile Medicine and Surgery. Douglas Mader, DVM, ed. pp. 406-411. W.B. Saunders, Philadelphia PA.

Several sources are cited and included here, as authoring the above work. My thanks and appreciation goes out to all of them, for making this paper available to us, in our attempts and efforts to better understanding these diseases, affecting our beloved herp friends.

A special thanks to Pete kahl.

- Angel
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Sometimes on your way to your dream, you get lost and find a better way!

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