Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have set up an vivarium housing four seperate (sub?)species of frogs; two mantellas (aurantica de noir and expectata) and two madagascar reed frogs (heterixalus betsileo and heterixalus madagascarensis). The mantellas are terrestrial and the reed frogs are arboreal, so conflict and stress is nearly non-exsistent. They all come from roughly the same area, and have adapted well to each other, included hunting in trios or even all four at once. The mantellas, when active, are seen in day, and the reed frogs, which have an incredible fondness for hiding in the smallest imaginable places (which makes cleaning the cage sometimes stressful), are active at night. There is some crossover at dusk and in early morning. I have a seperate cage for a red-eyed and they often chirp between the two cages.

I post this not only to show that, when planned and considered carefully, multpile species of frogs can co-exist (it's a little easier if they're all from the same forest, or place), but something extra as well. When I first aqcuired my reed frogs (which are tiny tree frogs, one being less than an inch and one slightly bigger than), they could see between their cage and the red-eyed cage. The smaller tree frog (named Tucker) in particular (heterixalus betsileo) was fascinated by Earl, my red-eye, and they would sometimes spend all night looking at each other and strutting about, showing off. Earl often shows off to me, yet the smaller frog was a suprise. Do they maybe feel kinship? Did Tucker see Earl as some recognizable figure? Or was it all curiosity?

I plan on conceiving more community tanks, incorporating reptiles and even fish, and I wonder if anyone else has "thrown caution to the wind" and tried as well. I am apprehensive of the loss of life, especially those in my care, yet I feel as though the more true to nature a setup can be, the better it is for the animals being kept. I have not yet lost one animal in my care, and i dont plan on it, so please respond with similar tales, or reasonable caution. Please, no over-cautious parroting, just personal experiences or memories. Thanks.

I have never made the claim that mixed species tanks do not work and always kill the frogs. But the simple fact is that most people are not able to give the amount of space that is required for this, nor do they have the experience and knowledge to contend with the complexities of providing Microhabitat, interpreting stress, and recognizing diseases. Zoos and aquariums have certainly done a great job of mixing species together. The national aquarium in Baltimore has one exhibit with a rear fanged snake, a tortoise, large tree frogs, and dart frogs... that's crazy!!!. But, let's look at the resources available to the staff, the exhibit is probably almost 1000 gallons, these people are professionals who had done the proper research and have access to other professionals in the field who know about keeping the species together, plus they also have an on staff veterinarian, which of course always comes in handy. The vast majority of those who wish to throw a bunch of animals together are people who are new to the hobby, and whose ideas are not grounded in reality. Keeping green tree frogs and anoles in a 10 gallon tank simply does not constitute a well-developed natural habitat.

The two biggest questions I have for you, is what size tank you have these animals in, and how long have you had them together? Even keeping them together for a year does not constitute success, as instances of predation and antagonistic behavior do not always manifest themselves in a one year period. I suspect that since you made the claim that no animal has died within your care, you may not have been at this game for very long, much less keeping these frogs together for a long time. Animal deaths are inevitable and are not always a good indicator of the quality of care they are being given.

As of right now, the vast majority of people who have tried mixed species tanks have failed. There is overwhelming evidence for this failure and that is the reason why the generalizations about not mixing species comes out on almost every post on these forums. Most people are reckless, and in my opinion no animal should be sacrificial. Until there is a set of rules that dictates mixing species that is successful 99 percent of the time, you will not see me preaching about the glories of keeping dissimilar animals together.

Some interesting related articles...
http://www.livingunderworld.org/amphibianArticles/article0007.htm

http://forum.kingsnake.com/treefrog/messages/27580.html
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

I'm really not a fan of mixed species, but I don't jump down peoples' throats about it. However, mixing different species of mantellas really gets my goat. I hope you atleast have the sense to throw out any eggs you get, although I'm really not sure how you think they come from the same forests, as Aurantiaca are from the bogs and Expectata are from the Baobob forests. Well, goodluck with your community vivarium that houses frogs on CITES.

I sense that your post might stir things up a little, be prepared for some irrational messages or angry replies from others. I've been keeping mantella frogs for over 5 years now. Madagascar is a large island with many micro-habitats and animals that have specific needs related to them. Mantella aurantiaca comes from cool mountain forests and swamps in eastern Madagascar. They spend their time in moist, cool leaf compost and low growing vegitation near bodies of water. Mantella expectata lives in the dryer south west part of the island. Temperature, humidity, plant cover and seasonal changes are completly different from what aurantiaca experiences. Idealy golden mantella frogs should be kept in the high 60's to low 70's during the day. The blue-legs do best when they are kept warmer and dryer during part of the year. I do not know much about Heterixalus species other than that some of them are absolutly gorgeous. I would assume that different species are native to specific habitat types just like with mantellas.

I would be interested in knowing how long your animals have been kept together. How large is your terrarium? Are there different areas that provide the individual needs for each species and are all these areas safe for the animals in the cage? In all honesty your frogs will probably be fine together for some time. Their care needs are similar and they are all around the same size. I do not think that you are able to keep your frogs in ideal conditions when they are housed in the same terrarium, its not possible. Mantella frogs are common in the pet trade but not so common in the wild. Both aurantiaca and expectata are restricted to a few isolated areas on Madagascar and are found no where else on earth. They might be abundant there but for how long? It seems irresponsible to keep rare frogs in anything but ideal conditions.

I wish you the best of luck with your terrariums that house multiple species but I also warn you against it. It seems that you know the risks that are involved but have decided to put the animals needs aside for your own greed. Maybe that was too harsh, sorry. As for other stories about mixing species? I do have some of my own and they all end poorly. As an uneducated 10 year old I tried everything fromm fire-bellied toads with green tree frogs to cuban tree frogs with fire-bellied newts (that was a big mistake). Even species that were found together in the same region (american toads with a northern leopard frog for example) did not last more than 6 or 7 months together. Its not benificial for the animals at all and only acts as a learning experience for the keeper. Once again, good luck,

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Devin
devin@amphibiancare.com
www.amphibiancare.com
4.1 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Dwarf French Guiana'
1.1 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Powder Blue'
5.1 Mantella aurantiaca
2.1 Mantella crocea
1.0 Ceratophrys cranwelli
1.0 Bufo americanus
0.0.1 Salamandra salamandra
1.0 Ambystoma tigrinum
0.1 Chamaeleo calyptratus
0.1 Phelsuma dubia
1.0 Uroplatus ebenaui
0.0.1 Chrysemys picta belli
1.0 Terrapene carolina triunguis

i feel as though i am in the wrong place.
it might not be easy to provide a terrarium with multiple conditions, but it can be done. in a 30 gallon with a couple of seperate "areas", each regulated at different temperatures and humidities, vegetation, water,etc. there may be discrepencies with their natural habitats, given. i hope to remedy that.
i am not new to this, nor extremely experienced, yet i am curious. i take your cauionary words, those who offer them, yet anger, judgments on myself or my love for animals in my care i do not. i suppose i neglected to consider animals dying from old age. i have never had an animal die in my care from neglect, undue stress, illness, or any unfortunate incident, that i know of, although i fear these things to the point of irrationality. i also sympathize with those who have lost animals in this way (eg. the ant incident involving RETF. horribly sad.)
this is my first venture into a community tank, although i also have a red eyed, a brazilian black and white milky, and a couple of mantellas in a seperate tank, at present. It has been established for about one year, with no problems, although some curiostites. I was amazed, as a person who has loved watching frogs since a child, to see these frogs interact as they do.
Also, i did not literally throw caution away, hence the quotation. I am overly cautious, if anything, yet i simply must know if this can be done. it is hard to know what is and is not possible, especially when often times "fact" about a species changes according to individual animals. i have the help, with regards to the individual who mentioned the zoo set up (which sounds extraordinary), from a couple of herpetologists who i have been lucky enough to become friends with. they know little on these particular frogs, though, and saw little difficulty if done properly.
the bottom line is i came here for help, and although i understand and can even appreciate the strong reactions, i will not stop, merely try to improve upon what i have. I will not initiate any additional community tanks for a while, with respect to those strong reactions. yet i am still curious, and i know that will not stop. i love the animals i keep. i care for them more than i care for people (with obvious exceptions), and i want to explore all possibilites for their care and interactions. much can be learned from them, as we all know. i must learn, and as little is known on these particular species, and virtually nothing on how they interact, i watch them closely and learn. i hope to learn more from you.

footnote - upon aquisition, i wasn't aware any of my frogs were on CITES. but what am i to do, send them home? an animal in a bad set-up as a result of an irresponsible seller/buyer is by no means a better alternative to what i have. i sincerely wish no harm, either by action of my own or lack thereof, on my animals.

Everyone on this forum cares a lot about their animals. You wrote a long thoughtful message and that alone shows me how much you care about them. I think that you are very well intended and most likely things will go as planned with your frogs, however keeping multiple species together in one terrarium increases the amount of problems that potentially could occur. You are possibly putting the frogs care aside to satisfy your own curiousity. I understand the erg to find out more and learn more about amphibians, I think that everyone who keeps them does but keeping rare frogs in conditions that are not ideal seems like a bad choice. It just doesn't seem like a good trade off to me.

Mantella aurantiaca is listed as CITES II which means that the numbers of frogs exported from Madagascar each year is regulated. Other species of mantella frogs are just as rare in the wild if not less common as golden mantellas but so far no restrictions have been placed on how many can be exported from the country. Enjoy your frogs, good luck,
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Devin
devin@amphibiancare.com
www.amphibiancare.com
4.1 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Dwarf French Guiana'
1.1 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Powder Blue'
5.1 Mantella aurantiaca
2.1 Mantella crocea
1.0 Ceratophrys cranwelli
1.0 Bufo americanus
0.0.1 Salamandra salamandra
1.0 Ambystoma tigrinum
0.1 Chamaeleo calyptratus
0.1 Phelsuma dubia
1.0 Uroplatus ebenaui
0.0.1 Chrysemys picta belli
1.0 Terrapene carolina triunguis

thank you. i have researched hard since the first replies, and at the first sign of problems, maybe even before, i will isolate my animals. i have given this all serious second thought, and i thank you all for your help, especially punker. i'll maybe post again down the line with updates.
thanks also to the individual who included the article links.
it is an excellent resource that has given me much to consider.
i have much to learn, not only from animals, but also with the help of you all, and people like you. thank you, and good luck to you all as well.

" in a 30 gallon with a couple of seperate "areas", each regulated at different temperatures and humidities, vegetation, water,etc."

All of that in a 30 gallon tank??

Everything else you said sounds great, keep trying, but this is ridiculously small.
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Don't the mantellas get "defecated" on by the tree frogs?
I avoid mixed-species tanks, especially when the tank would be mixing animals that come from different micro-habitats. I like to keep things simple; species-specific, oversized tanks. I don't claim to be the greatest herper ever; I have had animals die in my care, from my ignorance (although I was a beginner, barely ten years old, and had no Internet way back then.) As beginners, of course, anyone can make mistakes. I only wish that with the Internet available, and good forums with an overwhelming majority of educated people being against novice mixed-species tanks, they would become a thing of the past.
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*~Ginevive~*