Reptile & Amphibian Forums

anybody seen any of these at the columbus show lately? anybody know how big they get?

I bought my male about a year ago from the Columbus show. The Zerkles have at least one adult pair, and have had offspring every time I have went, and I eventually broke down and bought the male for $45 or $50.

They say they get between 4.5'-6' as adults. Marcel has some nice images down a few posts of his adult male and jv. female.

What part of OH are you from?

Later

Jon

I'm in defiance county ohio, about 3 and a half hours NW of columbus

My sources record specimens reaching 210 cm or just under 7'.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Those are quite high prices Jon. In Holland and Germany they are very common. I think almost as popular as Yellow ratsnakes. They go here $20 as babies. Most of them will reach 6'. Some go over 2 meters.

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Marcel Poots (Holland)
'Where is your crown King Nothing?' James Hettfield

but the Zerkles were the only ones that had them (particularly a male) at that show, and the cheapest they go for online is $35 plus shipping, so I wasn't going to be getting a better deal for a single male.

They are definately gaining popularity in the U.S., but like most non U.S. Elaphe type snakes, they aren't too cheap or too common like the corn snake or blk or yellow rats.

Do you know exactly what happened to your female? Did she still have eggs left in her when she died? That is a real bummer.

I've got my 02' pair, and plan on having them try in 05' (my first breeding pair), so I am nervous and anxious and curious on what to do and expect.

Do you think your husbandry techniques were solid or was it some sort of a fluke?

Thanks

Jon

>>Do you know exactly what happened to your female?

I think I fed her too much in the few weeks before breeding. I wanted her to grow a little more size. I fed a few mice/chicks every 3 days. As you know Russians digest very fast. So indeed she grow a bit bigger. But this time she produced 16 eggs instead of 8 eggs in the year before. She did not lay the eggs but died on the 40th day or so. The eggs where huge. I did cut her open and took the eggs out. None survived in the incubator.
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Marcel Poots (Holland)
'Where is your crown King Nothing?' James Hettfield

Thank you for the good information about your past unfortunate experience.

You are trying your new female this year, and pretty soon too right? How many grams is she at?

Do you have to start feeding them smaller items when they get brought out of burmation like my "Ratsnakes" book suggests.

I'm a total newb on brumating and breeding, this is my first year for putting them down and next will be my first for breeding.

Thanks very much for all of you good pictures and useful info,

Jon

>>You are trying your new female this year, and pretty soon too right? How many grams is she at?
>>Do you have to start feeding them smaller items when they get brought out of burmation like my "Ratsnakes" book suggests.

I would estimate 300 grams plus. She started on Fuzzy's. Nothing else would do. No she is all hungry again and eats adult mice and chicks. I am feeding not so much because I would hate to loose her the same way. I am feeding another 3 weeks and introduce her to the male.. Exciting
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Marcel Poots (Holland)
'Where is your crown King Nothing?' James Hettfield

Sorry to barge in at this late point in the strand, but the ecology of Elaphe schrencki is a little unique, and I felt a need to add some comments on their husbandry.

In the wild Russian Rats, E.s.schrencki, have a very short active season. In some parts of their range they may only be active from May through September, or about 4 to 5 months. That means they are subject to long, cold winters. I have seen some folks breed schrencki at 1.5 yrs. and get just a couple eggs. They are getting eggs from immature females, which then is very stressful for the young female. I've been maintaining Russian Rats since 1988, and have done lots of experimenting in that time. I now brumate my Russians every winter starting with babies for about 8 to 12 wks at about 55-60*F. I brumate adults for at least four months at 50-55*F, or lower. Under this regimen it takes my females four or five years to reach maturity.

I have a pair of adults that have just turned four yrs. old in 2003. I'm thinking about matching them up in the spring, but probably won't because I don't want the offspring. They have grown fairly slowly, but look to be fairly good size now, probably about 400 grams, or so, and about four ft. long. They will grow more, as this line has gotten to about 5 ft. for me and will eventually weigh closer to 600 grams, I believe (estimates). In my opinion, shcrencki takes about five yrs. to become fully mature in the wild. I know I'm guessing because I've never done actual field work, but from all my observations it seems like that's the most logical developmental time for them.

They mature quite slowly, so I'd be cautious with them. Healthy animals can live over twenty yrs., I believe. My original male, which I purchased in 1988, is still alive with a Canadian breeder, last time I checked.

BTW, I took a pair of Russian Rats with me to a Columbus Show a couple yrs. ago, because someone was to meet me there and wanted to purchase them. That person never showed up, and the snakes sat there at a friend's booth the whole show and never sold. He told me breeders didn't bring them anymore because they never sell. I ended up giving the snakes away, and they were adults.

If you want a species like this that's hard to find, you should keep in contact with breeders that have them to find out what they will do with their extras. They often don't advertise or go to shows. Good luck.

PS: All snakes should be started slowly after coming out of brumation. I don't feed my snakes at all the first week as they are warming up. Then I feed them small quantities at first. I've lost several snakes in the past starting them too quickly when they're not in the proper activity mode. Once I know they're digesting properly and at the optimal temps, etc, then I step it up for females to start egg production. I don't introduce the females to males until after their first shed also. Good luck.

Terry

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Ratsnake Haven: Elaphe schrencki, dione, bimaculata, mandarina, conspicillata, porphyracea, taeniura, situla, and emoryi.

That is quite a wealth of info on points that I am not too familiar with yet.

Perhaps I am being too hasty with my breeding plans in 05 with my 02 pair. I will now plan tentatively, and not "rush" if it comes to that.

I have planned on the bare minumums based on other references for corn and rat snake sizes for the female to be 400g and the male to be at least 300g, even though they are very similar in size, with the male up 20g as he fed for several weeks after the female quite back in Sept. The male went off feed at ~160g and the female ~140g. I guess they will each have dropped 10-25% of their mass when they come out.

I have had them in since Thanksgiving weekend, and since they are indoors in a wall adjaced to the outside, the temps range from as high as 63*F to 43*F when I have checked, both day and night. Usually it rests in the 50*F's.

The information about starting slowly is very appriciated, as I did not take that into such a heavily consideration, I was only planning on waiting 5-10 days out of brumation to offer. I will take things more slow now.

That is very interesting about the animals you gave away. I have seen a pair that the Zerkles were selling in 2 consecutive montly shows, which struck me as odd, I figured they would move. I understand that they may have been overzealous about buying back any offspring produced by me, but I am not in it for the money, and would be satisfied with the whole lot for $20 or something like that. I will be dissapointed however if it is a problem to move them at low prices like that.

One question, how often do you offer water when you brumate? They have only accepted the first time about 3 weeks after going in, and have not the subsequent two times about two weeks apart since. I am going to try in the near future. Do you leave water in with them?

Thanks for all of the info!

Jon

One of the pts. is that it's supposed to be educational, and remember, lots of other new herpers read these posts too. Also, you live fairly close, Jon. There's a chance we could meet up sometime, as I travel through Ohio a lot in summer. My oldest brother lives in Toledo. Anyway, it seems some of the info will be helpful.

It's interesting how you brumate your herps. Lots of people think it's easy to brumate herps in the northern states because it gets so cold here. I have a lg. walk-in closet that I set up my brumation cages in. It usually doesn't get cold enough for the snakes until after the frost sets in the ground. Winters here can be cold enough for the ground to freeze more than three ft. deep, but it usually doesn't start until sometime in December. So, normally, I try to get my snakes to stay active until December, or at least until mid-Nov. That's not always possible because some species, like schrencki, are adapted to long, cold winters. By mid-December, anyway, it is usually in the 50-55*F. range in my Hibernation Room, and that is cold enough to brumate the snakes for a good four months.

BTW, my snakes usually don't lose hardly any body weight. If they're losing 15 to 25% body wgt. you should try to get your temps more consistent, or not leave them in brumation as long. That might not be too healthy for them. Just my opinion.

Russian rats don't sell very well as far as I know, but they may for some people who advertise more. It's not the price which you'll have a problem with, but the fact that so few people appreciate them, or want one for a pet. Oh well, I just don't breed them unless I want to make a new line.

As far as the water goes...I leave a water jug in the cage all winter and freshen it every 3-4 wks. They might not drink often, but it should be there when they are active. Sometimes they soak in the jug also. Some snakes may spend the entire winter soaking in the water that has a more constant temp. than the air. Here's a pic of a cage with a couple water jugs in it...

TC
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Ratsnake Haven: Elaphe schrencki, dione, bimaculata, mandarina, conspicillata, porphyracea, taeniura, situla, and emoryi.

Thanks for the info.

I'm going to go ahead and put their water dishes in with them today for the remainder than.

I was just estimating loss of weight from what I had "thought" I had read. This is my first year brumating anything, as I just purchased my first E. Schrencki last Jan. and the second in Mar. My other ratsnakes all eat through the winter, as well as my two L. Splendida's, so I have had little encouragement to put them down, as well as my lack of confidence doing it in general.

I have recently found a new option for brumation in my house though. In our hallway, there is an upstairs attic, and I noticed it was nicely cool when I was putting some stuff in storage on Wed. I am checking the daytime hi's and the nightime lo's right now to see if it suitable, but it seems that it may be too cold, at least in the spot where my probe has been.

I am just north of Dayton, real close to I-75, right down the road from your brother. I only have 6 snakes here at my house (living with parents + college student), but it would be cool to meet up @ the Herp. Show or whatever.

You are the same Terry Cox that used to have a website right? I thought you lived in AZ, but I just found some info from a google search that said N. Michigan? The UP? I have vacationed in the Western half of the UP in a small town called "Edna" I beleive, that is where I learned how to ride motorcycles. I have barely been in AZ however, just along the Virgin River George going from St. George to Las Vegas.

Nice pic of the E. Bimaculatas?

Later

Jon

Hey, Jon.

I live in MI mainly, the L.P. But we also spend time in AZ and plan to retire there. You live in a good area. The highland area around Miami, OH is supposed to have massasaugas, and a little south of you are populations of Kirtland's water snakes. E-mail me and maybe we can come up with some kind of field trip to check out their habitat. I'm already planning to be in Columbus end of April or May.

PS: I know they are listed sps. and it wouldn't be for collecting.

Later...Terry

I have never seen any of those species while hunting around, though I have done very little of it.

I have seen
- Multiple neonate E. Obsoleta
- One adult E. Obsoleta
- Several adult and neonate Black Racers (colubur constrictor?)
- Several adult N. Watersnakes (Neordia?)
- One adult E. King (also bit me and freaked out my parents when I was 8)

Mostly I hit up local Metroparks, not the greatest but close to me. I do have a buddy in Highland County with a nice lake behind his house, he may have some great habbitat for the species you listed as well. That could be a cool trip in the spring/summer.

I was thinking E. Dione, but then I referenced my "Rat Snakes" book and got the Bimac thing going, haha.

Jon

...are South Korean Dione's Ratsnakes, Elaphe dione, btw.

TC

Congratulations on purchasing one of the most underrated snakes in the world. I had a pair I wish I still had. The female hit the six foot mark and the male wasn't far behind. They were both very robust and took live medium rats as adults. Sometimes, however, the male would take only live mice. They were wonderful animals, friendly and inquisitive. In fact, they would come to the glass whenever I entered the room. I took them to my high school classes on several occasions and they never failed to impress. They get big and hefty.

My adult male... He is 74 inches at 7 years.

Awesome snake Steve. Mine is about that same length but slightly younger. He is 6 years. Here is an old pic showing a bit size.

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Marcel Poots (Holland)
'Where is your crown King Nothing?' James Hettfield

Take a look here:
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=307565,307565

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Marcel Poots (Holland)
'Where is your crown King Nothing?' James Hettfield

my male is 6 feet plus and still growing

I can't find a russian rat snake :[