Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I read the cites agreement,and it says that any appendixI animal that is captive bred in captivity,gets put down to appendix II animals,in which makes it legal to cross state lines.There is a gentlman selling dwarf croc's in ohio,and he says he can't sell them out of state.I take it, that the reason why is because he does not have any USDI permits,correct? Mike

CITES is an international body. The individual governments are within their rights to impose additional regulations if they choose, and that's what the USFWS did in the case of common caimans. Dwarf caimans (Paleosuchus and Trigonotus) are not protected at the federal level and therefore can be legally sold across state lines without fear of Lacey violation.

It should also be pointed out that even if someone is captive breeding common caimans, they still can't be transported across state lines in any sort of transaction that involves value (cash, trade, barter etc) without proper federal permits. It is up to the individual states to determine what happens within their borders.

Bill

not paleosuchus and trigonotus

Hi Mike,

I have always read it like that as well.

I even called USDI once and asked. They still pretty much hold to the basic CITES classification. Although no one seemed certain, at least the fellows I talked with. This was a few years ago. You may wish to call them directly and rehash it. I'd be interested in hearing the current point of view.

I personally think it's silly to do so in the case of an animal certified as CB(as in zoo bred) but that seems to be the general position.

The whole idea is to protect wild populations. Hence the lower classification for CB animals. They are not part of the 'wild' population. I think the US government just doesn't want to deal with whats CB and what isn't so they want a permit and fee involved.

Bill makes a good point on the caiman. Although I'd be interested in seeing a case of truly CB crocs shipped across lines and the reaction.

A few years ago, when I was breeding box turtles in number, a large turtle exporter approached me. Apparently box turtles are HUGE in Japan. The profit margin was big. The problem? Box turtles are essentially CITES I in regards to shipping them outside the USA. The exporter is pretty schooled in the law. He said if we could verify their CB status, photos, facilities, documentation, etc. They could be downlisted and shipped. I would guess perhap it COULD happen with crocs as well. But I never pursued it as I sold out every year here.

I also hasten to post this publicly, but CITES rules only apply for value transactions. A 'donation' allows the animal to cross lines sans permit. I'll let it to you to fill in this legal grey area.

I think it all goes back to the invasive species issue the USFWS has. Regardless of the breeding location, the potential for them getting loose in the wild is still there (the Fed pov)

Bill

You might be correct Bill, irregardless if any common sense is involved or not.