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can you comfortablity put in an enclosure 4ft. deep X 8ft. wide X 8ft. tall? what ratio of boys to girls would you put in this size enclosure?

dennis

Dennis,

As you may know alot will not recommend housing males and females together or multiple males together but we have done it sucessfully. When we were breeding the Jax a few year back we have our enclosure which was 8' tall, 6' wide, and 4.5' deep. We housed successfully and without any problems a group of 10.18 in that enclosure. We found that when housing them in large enclosures like that the males tended to combat each other and actually made them breed better. We had one male that had one of his rear legs was useless because when he was a baby it was bitten by another animal. Well even with that lame leg he was the dominant male and would flip the other males off branches in combat and then breed his females like mad. The main thing that we found about keeping multiple Jax together is placing them all in the enclosure at the same time. this way none of them are already established in that enclosure when you add the others. I would say you could keep a group like the size we did but would recommend to play it my watching them and seeing how they do.

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Rob Trenor
RK Reptiles
www.rkreptiles.com
www.oldworldchameleons.com
www.ballpythonmorphs.net

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Signature edited to remove advertising comments.

Edited on January 25, 2004 at 18:52:38 by phwyvern.

To me an important thing to decide is why you want the jacksoni group in the first place. If you are set on breeding and producing babies for sale I suppose a colony like that would satisfy you. When I think of how jax in the wild would space themselves I can't see more than 1 male and 2 females occupying an area that size. If you hope to create a more "natural" colony for your own entertainment and learning then I feel the relative stress and aggression such a big group would experience would not be worth it. Yes some stress is positive (breeding behavior, competition, and social ranking) and needed for survival, but it would be a very artificial situation that you'll have to watch like a hawk for bullies.

One other recommendation is to use a large amount of natural foliage. Especially since your in southern california. The natural foliage will allow them to hide providing security and will hold in the humidity a lot better (as well as providing shade).

I have a number of jackson colonies going though I only keep them in 1.4's or so. I do this mostly so I can be sure of the father of the group that drop. I've also noted that raised humidity will help in breeding (an artificial "wet" week tends to get things going once it warms up in spring).

I am now thinking of introducing a male into a colony to see what effect it has (per Rob's post above).
Scales - Premium Exotic Reptiles

Well, I'm starting to see results from my deremensis idea. My male was a pushover, not only was he NOT showing courtship displays when a female was in sight, he would his defensivly, and retreat--doing the same thing even with his own relfection , and a SUB-ADULT male. To top it off, he was not eating. He hadn't eaten more than one insect evert 3 days for months.

SO, I threw the little male in with the trio. It's been a few weeks, maybe a bit more, and I have some info.

I had to separate them. The big male became SO aggresive, he wouldn't let the little one leave the bottom 2 feet of the enclosure. And when the little one started to court the females, the crap hit the fan. I actually tried to stop it, but it happened so quickly. I never would have thought he could move so fast. The big guy tore after him, knocked him off the female, and bit both of them on the base of the tail. Not too hard, just enough to leave a nice faint, black "V" on the little one.

Funny thing was, after the little one was removed, the females became more tolerant of the big male, even top the point of sleeping right next to him.

Even better, his appitite has returned, he's eating like crazy now, and doesn't cower when I approach.

I could have kept them together, and as long as the little guy stayed in his place, things would have been fine. However, that little guy has some guts. Attempting to mate with a massive female(and last night a calyptratus--I'm telling you, he's got guts). I want him to grow as fast as possible.

Tonight, Im putting up an old cage for him.

I was debating as to what I should do, as I have such a large space in my deremensis enclosure. Theadults have 8', and the other 4' is seperate, for the little ones. But I can't keep him in with the little female, she's too meek now. SO, I'm going to see if my female calyptratus will get along with the female deremensis. They're about the same size, and seemed to not react much to each other, so well see. They have a 4x3x4' area, so things should work out fine.

As long as I keep the males locked up, I should be fine.

I should have made one thing clear in my previous post. OUr enclosures were super well planted where it looks like a total jungle. The more foliage you can offer the better the group will be as the males will be able to establish their own areas. We found that the males even when in smaller groups tend to have their own areas and don't leave that area too often.
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Rob Trenor
RK Reptiles
www.rkreptiles.com
www.oldworldchameleons.com
www.ballpythonmorphs.net

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Signature edited to remove advertising comments.

Edited on January 25, 2004 at 18:53:45 by phwyvern.

you're stating that you have "no problems" with the 10.18 colony you keep but there is "combat" between the males. combat is just another word for fighting, and if the fightign is severe enough to mame one of your young chameleons then i would consider that a problem and an unhealthy enviroment. dont get me wrong, i beleive competiton is good, not domonation though.

dennis

Dennis,

Rob said that the dominant one had a previous injury not that he injured the other jax.

"We had one male that had one of his rear legs was useless because when he was a baby it was bitten by another animal".

Dennis,

The combat the males exhibited did not cause any injuries to any of the animals. They would lock horns, and push each other until one would give in. The animal with the injury received the injury when it was a baby and not during its adult life or in the colony. He was the dominant male even though he had that injury. Even with him being the Dominant male this did not prevent any of the other males breeding the females. As a matter of fact the male with the injury lived to the age of 7 years old before he perish of what we believe to be old age.
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Rob Trenor
RK Reptiles
www.rkreptiles.com
www.oldworldchameleons.com
www.ballpythonmorphs.net

_____

Signature edited to remove advertising comments.

Edited on January 25, 2004 at 18:55:44 by phwyvern.

Rob,

How did you know which males/females begot which neonates if they were all in the same general enclosure? How could you tell which neonates could be paired out as different bloodlines?

It sounds kind of chaotic and hard to keep track of with that many animals in one cage. It seems like it was very possible and even very likely that some pairs sold or given away were of the same bloodlines thereby promoting inbreeding of the jacksons species.
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Raf

1.2 Jacksons Adults (Frank, Patty, Lucille)
0.0.1 Jackson's baby (George, R.I.P. 11/17/2003)
1.1 Nosy Be's (Mars and Roja)
1.1 Veiled - No Names Yet
0.1 Adult Sulcatta (POOPIE,I bought it from Victor at Kobey's in SD)
0.0.2 Baby Sulcattas (frick and frack)
1.0 Home's Hingeback Tortoise (SPEEDY, From Victor as well)
1.2 Red ear slider babies (Hingis, Dingis and Dorkus)
0.0.1 3 toed box turtle - No Name Yet
0.0.1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle - No Name Yet
1.0 Red Siberian Husky (Harley)
0.1 Black Lab (Krissy)
0.1 English Bulldog (Alice)
0.1 Blue Merle Great Dane (Wednesday)
Saltwater Fish and Inverts too

if you're the one being comfortable, a pair otherwise, but only if they prove compatible under careful supervision.