Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all,

The post below about "natural" venomoids got me thinking, so I thought I'd take a little opinion poll. Would those of you who are anti-venomoid be less opposed to them if some sort of genetic modification drug was developed to create snakes that could not produce venom? I know this sounds far fetched, but I really don't think that it would be too hard to suppress the expression of venom proteins in a snake with all of the genetic research being undertaken these days. For the sake of this idea, we would restrict the use of the drug to snakes which produce mainly neurotoxic venom, to ensure that those snakes that may use their venom to aid digestion are not affected. I'm not trying to stir up trouble, but I am trying to stir up discussion. Let me know what you guys think!

-jcostell

Interesting concept. I'm not sure how the mechanics of it would work. Possibly something to retard secretions from the gland (if that were possible).
The problems would be: How could you guarentee 100% nullification of the venom. How would this affect the snake's abilities to procur and digest food? What side effects would it have on the snake.
If a snake that was perminently captive could be non surgicaly rendered harmless in a way that did not adversely effect it's health, I would have no problem with that. however, I would have a concern about whether this snake should be allowed to breed if the breeding would result in normaly venomous offspring. This could present problems.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

This is certainly not an attack on anyone, their knowledge or skill level. I simply wanted to address one or two issues that go beyond whether the animal simply has venom or not.

Your idea, even hypothetical, sounds better than surgery since it may be better for the animal.

However, you still have the possibility of an escape. A mamba is a mamba regardless of their venom. Their speed, intellegence and behavior is not changed by being venomoid. If one escaped a less than skilled keeper and got outside, severe problems would occur. No one else would know that the snake is venomoid. Escaped ball pythons are close to causing the end of reptile keeping in some areas. No need for loose cobras The inherent flaw in this idea is that venomoids encourage unskilled keepers to work with this animal.

The other problem is the potential for venomoid keepers to feel ready to work with normal animals, based strictly on their venomoid experience. I've known one or two people who felt this way. Safely handling a cobra like a cornsnake teaches you nothing about working with cobras. However, I've known people who want tame cobras because they are easier to work with. I don't like the logic of this too much either, since you can build up a false trust. I guess it goes both ways.

These are just two inherent problems with venomoids that go beyond the methods of the procedure.

Dave

n/p
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

What fun would it be to own a racecar that would only do 25 mph?

Not that I think machismo has anything to do with keeping hot snakes...but the knowing that they are hot..and that a mistake can really mess you up..gives the whole thing a little bit of an edge. If you haven't been there, you probably wouldn't understand. If you have, the question probably wouldn't have been asked.

~~Greg~~

I own just one hot, a B. schlegelii. The "hot" factor really hasn't ever been a big issue to me, I just like being able to observe my snakes up close and personal, even though the environment in which they live is absolutely completely unnatural, no matter how much you decorate or how much space you give them. I get as much enjoyment watching my JCP hanging out on the back of my chair as watching my eyelash curled up on a branch through the glass.

-jcostell

n/p

Caring for crippled snakes doesn't bother me any. These specimens have as much right to good quality care as healthy ones do....maybe a little more, since humans messed them up in the first place. I was not really sure how much envenomation capacity this poor little girl would have left after her injuries: http://www.kingsnake.com/snakegetters/demo/vet/mamba-jaw.html but that didn't make her any less deserving of care.

Anyhow we put her back together and she's killing mice just fine now, albeit with a slightly crooked set of fangs. I am very glad for that. But as long as the animal was not in pain, it would not have bothered me to end up caring for an accidental venomoid. I would not have put her through any additional pain just to preserve her envenomating capability, though of course we tried to save as much healthy tissue and bone as possible. Neither would I put an animal through pain to destroy that capability. That isn't what veterinary medicine is for. It's about helping and healing the patient and easing pain, not about human ego.

What does bother me is the fact that some heartless person would deliberately hurt and cripple a snake in the first place. There is pain involved in making a snake venomoid, even if the operation is done by a licensed veterinarian who uses proper pain relief medication. Which it normally is not in this industry. There are very serious ethical questions about performing invasive surgeries on animals that do not benefit the patient in any way but are only a convenience to the owner.

These kinds of surgeries are illegal in the UK because they are deemed animal cruelty. It is always embarrassing when the British vets who come over for conferences in the US and express their horror that such things are still legal here. A great many US vets are in agreement with them and refuse to perform these ethically questionable procedures which are not widely accepted in the veterinary profession. It is probably just a matter of time until the US catches up with the UK in terms of veterinary ethics.

These ethical questions get even more serious when it is in fact the standard in the industry that these operations are performed by unlicensed amateurs with inappropriate or inadequate tools and medicines. I don't consider that to be an acceptable standard.

***That isn't what veterinary medicine is for. It's about helping and healing the patient and easing pain, not about human ego.***

Good one, TT!!!

Good question.

I think you could go in two directions. One lies in the production of "knockout" snakes, much like the knockout mouse mutations that are so vital to genetic research. If you produced a bloodline that lacked the genes to produce the venom proteins, then the snake's "venom" would totally lack the proteins and be inert. Homozygous animals would breed true, and you would have permanately affected the bloodline, which would obviously have to be closely monitored as far as breeding goes. I've never heard of knockout reptiles, and I don't know if it has ever been attempted. Plus, you'd have to suppress ALL of the MANY proteins that make up the venom complex.
The other theory would be some sort of suppressive drug that inhibits some step in the protein production, thereby creating either a modified venom that would not be efficient at its intended purpose (whatever that happens to be) or no venom at all. I would think that this method would be less drastic, but less complete and trustworthy as well. I don't even know if this is remotely possible.
Honestly, I have a Biology degree, but it was really just an excuse to get paid to work with animals, and I paid little attention in my genetics classes. Now I wish I would have!

If you are not causing pain and suffering to the snakes, I don't have a lot of problems with it. However I don't see a way to accomplish what you are talking about without experimenting on snakes in a way that probably would be painful and wouldn't be very good for them.

I know of one case where a Gaboon viper was born with no teeth at all - it had a mouth like a frog's. You couldn't tell this from the outside however; the animal looked and acted completely normal. If this was a genetic mutation rather than a temperature problem during embryonic development, and if it bred true, that would be a way to produce venomoids without inflicting pain or suffering. That young Gaboon happily ate prekilled mice with all its other siblings and nobody even had a clue about its problem until it had grown large enough to put on the venom line. This particular animal lived and died some years ago, but perhaps another will be found someday and bred.

Some other potential problems with venomoids do exist, but they're not nearly as much of a concern (at least to me personally) as the primary issue of veterinary ethics.