Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi everyone,
I was recommended below about feeding good quality food with high protein to keep out cannabalism. I am currently feeding my dogs Big Red dog food. I read the ingredients and nothing said "dye," they were all wierd names like chlorine chloride and calcium acetate. Does this mean theres no dye in it? It has a min. of 21% protein, 10% fat, and 5.5% fiber. Does this sound good. I was thinking, I could mix four parts of this with one part of rodent food. Sound good?

Thanks,
Taylor

Typically it will say in the front of the bag if there are no dyes or preservatives used. Another indication is the colour of the kibble. If it is coloured, then dyes are used but I beleive if it is a dark brown, little or no dyes have been used but I am not 100% sure on this. You could always email the company inquiring if they use dyes in that brand of food. The website or email address should be on the bag itself, probably under the nutrient list or any fine print.

Two of many reasons for Cannabalism are dehydration and possible genetic defects (considered by parent mice). Provide Cold water everyday and use quality Lab Chow with Vita Hamster Seed Mix every two days. This will provide Hydration and supplemental diet content. I also recommend group ratio appropraite to cage or Lab box used. Dog food is cheap but not good in that it is not designed for small rodents or reptile metabolisms with chemical break down.

My experience with a number of food sources has led me to believe that some dog foods are perfect. I was feeding a nice fairly cheap dog food I bought at petsmart and decided, since I could, I would switch over to some rodent lab blocks I got for even cheaper than the dog food. I had forty thriving rodent colonies at the time. By the time the first week of using rodent chow instead of dog chow, every single litter had been cannabalized, and fully half the mice had died! With all else being equal, I consider this to be a sign that the rodent chow was NOT getting the mice their necessary nutrition. When I switched back to the normal food, the mice stopped eating their babies. I pitched the remainder of the 100 lbs of rodent food I bought. Hate to waste money, but there you go.

The thing about the cheapest dog foods compared to the most expensive ones... the cheaper they are they less they are really geared towards a dog, the more grain fillers they use. The more expensive they are the more actual animal ingredients there are for the dogs. The cheapest ones do not have red dyes (the one I use is a very light brown color... the color of corns and grains). I have a very very thriving mouse set up, and have stuck with the Petsmart dog food since the fiasco with rodent food.
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~Sasheena

Is it allowed to give the name of the dog food you get from Pet Smart?

MissHisssss

In big yellow letters on a green bag it says "Adult".... I think there is a brand name, but I've never been able to figure it out. Basically if you ask Petsmart employees to show you their cheapest dog food, that is it. I think it only comes in 50# bags though. I think it also says "Grrreat" on the label.
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~Sasheena

Thanks Shasheena. I think it's called Grrrreat Choice. They had Adult, High Pro and Lite. I got the Adult.

I started out feeding Mazuri Rodent 6F which only has 16.0% protein, 6.0% fat and 5.0 fiber. I thought they needed more protein so I added a little Wal Mart ole Roy adult dog food with 21% protein, 9% fat and 4.00 fiber. The Grrrreat Choice has 21%, 10% fat and 4.50 fiber. Both dog foods have simular ingredents but the Ole Roy had meat by products where as the Grrreat Choice has Poultry. I also give a handful of super game cock feed with all different kinds of seeds and grains about 3 times a week. They love it. It only has 13.0% protien and 3.0% fat. Fiber is 10.0. Usually the only time they eat babies is when they are first time mom's, sick, or have too many babies already. The other day one of my best top producers popped and killed all her young (she always gives me around 16 pups), plus all the babies that her cage mate just had too. Then I noticed blood all over her rear and was obviously on her way out, so I ended her suffering. What a mess. I felt so bad for her. My breeders are like my little kids.

Anyway... I'll probably continue feeding the Mazuri (unless they go up on the price which is 21$ for a 50# bag), dog food and seed combination... but I think the addition of poultry in the Grrrrreat Choice will be helpful. Thanks again Shasheena.

Wan't it drastic to change food completely over instead of slowly mixing food until eventually changing over? Even the Vita Hamster Mix it contains a type of rodent cereal in it with pellets and seed mixes. I do agree with multiple food sources, I just prefer not to use dog foods with feeder mice going to my snakes. Ash and Corn mash contents are a varable factor too. What are your thoughts on this? Take into consideration I feed my Blue Tongue Skinks "Whiska's Crave or Original" dry Cat food with no ill effects for over 15 years. All red dyes and or Ash contents are not the same, and do not effect different species the same way.

7Serpents.... I don't recall anyone saying that they changed their mice over to a new diet quickly. How did you come to this conclusion?

With all the junk that they put in all our food sources now a days... you'd have to eliminate everything to be totally safe.

MissHisssss

No one individual stated that they did or did not change food over quickly or gradually. And yes there maybe one safe way, feeding all natural seed varieties, which some large commerical breeders utilize. Nothing is ever for sure without trial and error. With experimentation of feeds using documentation records of feed, production, growth, health, and genetics of feeder & snakes can give an Hypothesis.

By your statement it sounded (to me) like you implied that someone had not made a gradual change of diet.

I do not even trust 'natural' foods/feed/seed with all the garbage that's in the air, soil, water/rain. I don't even trust what is put on boxes/cans/sacks of food. Example: All cans of Raveoli (by Chef Boy R D, I think) had in big print on the front of the can NO PRESERVATIVES... and yet it have MSG'S listed in the contents. I wrote to them about this, and they removed the NO PRESERVATIVES part.

I'm not trying to change anyones mind with my posts, I'm just giving my opinion.

MissHisssss

I value your opinion. These open forums give a variety of opinions, experiences, and new ideas to be shared. I am working with other breeders in my area to gather data from all sources for some kind of Hypothesis on each different feeder varieties with different speices of snakes and lizards. After four years the only distinct trait with use of dog food in the mix to say, has been an average small snake size of 18" to 24" length at 18 to 24 months old (in Kingsnakes, Milksnakes, Corn Snakes), with varying factors of genetics,enclosure size & type, and temperature control (either by heat tape of temperature controlled room). This is by no means a finished study. I do not use dog food myself. This is due ingredient content under my own criticism and to my California Kingsnakes average three year old size of 54" to 61", using Harland Breeder Lab Chow with Vita Hamster Seed Mix with the Harland Supermice (outbreed to Fancy mice/ICR/Swiss Websters, all Unexperimented mice). Please continue to give your opinions. I am always open minded to new Ideas, experiences, and criticism.

What is the percentage of Protein and Fat in the Hartland Breeder Lab Chow, and the Vita Hamster Seed Mix?

I'm sorry I sound so cynical about food/feed/seed, etc. I guess I just resent the fact that the FDA is allowing food companies to feed us food made from junk. Example: Nuti-Sweet is just one molecule away from being a fuel oil. Margarine is one molecule away from being plastic. Artificial this, and artificial that. I remember buying the most expensive dog food for my show dogs and they all got cancer (different breeds too so it wasn't genetics). I had never seen this is the olden days before all the fancy garbage and powerful perseratives were added to dog foods. Perhaps this is why some mice get tumors.

As far as size and feeding dogs foods, etc.... a friend of mine raises boo coo corn snakes. They also raise their own mice on nothing but Mazuri Rodent chow. I got two snake from them and they grew at different rates, as did others I got elsewhere. Several of his snakes (of the same age) also grew at different rates with some being small, medium and also large. He had a yearling that looked like a 3 month old... I have a yearling that looks like a two year old. I think it's more genetics... unless you purposely try to make them small or large by the amount you feed them. Your study sounds interesting though, and I'd like to know how it turns out.

I LOVE these forums
MissHisssss

Vita Hamster Seed Mix is min 12% Protein, min 5% Fat, and max 12% fiber. Harland Chow info is lent out to one of the group who is adding Teklad to the Breeder Lab Chow information and reformating data. I will get this out to you as soon as it is updated and returned. We have found big differences in use of Teklad and Breeder formulas as far as health and consistant litter production & size with the ICR & SW outbreedings to Fancy Mice and One Unnamed Super Harland species.
One member of our group has switched over to Sleek & Sassy Natural Seed and Vegetable Mixes over the past year with positive results accross the board on preliminary testing. The web site is www.sleekandsassy.com. This I may try with Uromastix in a portion of the diet. It's worth looking into. But money is tight with the ecomony so it would be a matter of individual judgement.

Thanks for the info on the feed. With the exception of the Vita Mix, I doubt that they'd have any of the other feeds around here. Dog gone it.

I think I'm starting to change my mind about something though. I used to use a 75% Mazuri Rodent Chow, 25% dog food and seed combination and all was just great. But once I added more dog food to the blend with it being 75% dog food and 25% Mazure and seed combination I've noticed that my mice have really cut back on their work. At first I thought everyone was just popping at the same time and it was leaving me in a dry spell waiting for them to pop again... but now that I've checked my records I've discovered that they have just quit getting pregnant. I'd heard others complain about a drop in production when they tried using dog food instead of the Rodent chow, but I didn't think it would happen with what I was doing. So I'll be going back to my first combination and hopefully my kiddo's will start working again for me.

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

MissHisssss

I went from Harland Teklad to Breeder Formula gradually and noticed out of 12 breeding groups that production was average weekly litter size of 17 to 25 pinkies per box per week average. Age and breedings effects the pinkie ratio. I will be changing half over to Sleek & Sassy Natural Seed Mix to compare data. On the Kingsnakes (even fussy hatchlings)always hit mice offered on feed I have now so this will be a new addition to study. Gotta love Feed Store pricing on bulk.

Man, that's a lot of meat balls.... I mean, pinkies. I'm working with the fancy types and I think the people I got them from introduced Swiss Websters way back when. Some produce 16 or so in their litters. For some new blood I introduced a few smaller, thinner, white jet mice (I call them that because they are a lot more nervous and always jetting aroung the cage)from the reptile shop, but I didn't like the results. I'd like to try and add some more heavy producers to my bunch but hear that Swiss Websters are not as good as they claim. Any suggestions on what it a really good super mouse?

I don't think we have any of those products you mentioned.

MissHisssss

The ICR type I have are not considered "SW" but are a separate bloodline, and the "undescribed Harland Supermice" are a separate bloodline which we out breed to each other after third to fourth generations of Fancy mice outbreeding. Alot of record of breedings. As far as Swiss Websters, it is dependant on the breeders out breedings for production. I have had all outbreed "SW" males, to Fancy mouse females, killed by females after breedings. I keep all offspring and introduce to Pure lines at fuzzie stage with no killings. Then their offspring are introduced to other Pures (outbreed second generations).
Basically outbreed to reduce inbreeding and crossover to keep mice healthy for feeder quality & large litter size. Can go into more details later, just got in from Hospital stay and need some rest. If I figure out how to post digital pictures this week I will show all fresh litter sizes and breeding groups that have worked for us in the group.

I hope that your hospital stay wasn't for anything serious and that you are on the mend.

I like what I'm hearing about what you are doing. I just wish I had different bloodlines to work with around here so that I could do the same. It sure would make for better mice, and more babies for me.

Feel better sooooon, and thanks for sharing.

MissHisssss

Zeigler Rodent RG 19-11. We began using this rodent chow several months back. It costs us 50lb @ $16. I believe this is a high grade lab chow and our mice are now fed exclusively on this product producing on average 15 to a litter. We have also begun feeding our rats this product mixed with Ole Roy.

Originally we were feeding FRM (I believe hog feed) mixed with Ole Roy when we first began our own rodent production. FRM and Ole Roy both cost approximately $10 per 50lbs. We fed both mice and rats this mixture with very good results.

Our switch to Zeigler though was basically due to oppurtunity. We are fortunate to have access to acquiring this product locally and figured it wise to use a product formulated for rodent production. We did stick with a mix for the rats because they really seem to like Ole Roy. It has always been the feed they search out in the bins and is primarily consumed first prior to anything (to date) we have mixed with it.

Rich Hebron

RichH.... what is the percentage of protein and fat in the Zeigler Rodent chow?

Thanks,
MissHisssss

19% protein, 11% fat