Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Thanks,
Wyatt

TW Intl Inc.
Dallas, Tx

Hello Wyatt–

I know there’s little point in arguing that screwing up the bloodlines of the Angolan python is something we could have done without. I realize there will always be people who want to hybridize just because they CAN. Generally, the profit principal wins out. But…..Soon enough you and the others doing this will be producing more, probably breeding them back to Angolans, probably breeding them to each other and anything else that might produce eggs. Now….we all know pure Angolans will become more available in a few years through captive breeding. Why would anyone then trust that any “Angolan” purchased from someone producing these hybrids is actually a true Angolan python and not one of the products of this experimentation?

Please note that I refrained from using any pejorative terms like bastard, bastardized, mongrel or mutt. Oops!

-Joan

Easy enough to answer... There are only two people that have actually been able to hybridize these species and that is TW Intl and NERD. So I would not worry about us crossing the bloodlines to soon as this project took many years just to complete one clutch..

Thanks,
Wyatt

Now we've got the Diamond x Jungle Carpet python syndrome occurring with a species that is infrequently bred. It is sad to see that people are too "cheap" to purchase an angolan female, so they opt for the cheaper male, and cross it with the 100 dollar female ball, and what do you know, some people got lucky. I don't understand why one would do this, I think that more people should breed PURE angolans, before any thought of hybridization should come about. Now there will be these hybrids floating around, that will then be crossed back to a pure angolan, and so on, so soon, a hard-to-find species will be replaced with "mutts" and impure specimens. Just look at jungle carpet pythons- there is a very small percentage of pure jungles being bred, most are an integrade of some sort, whether it be diamond influence, or coastal carpet influence. The same thing applies here; that one b_____rd was too cheap to afford a diamond python female, so he decided to go the cheaper way and crossing it to a jungle female, and voila! look at the mutts commonly offered for sale nowadays... Crosses don't even look as good as pure jungles or pure diamonds....so why do it??

What's next? Is someone going to be too cheap to buy a female blackhead python, so instead they cross a blackhead male with a woma female?? I personally disagree with hybridizing species, especially species that are infrequently kept and bred. just my thoughts....

bob

I hope you don't mind if I put half my foot in the door...
I don't necessarily think it is a bad thing...Nature loves variation, and if it works, it works. I absolutely love the angolans, and it's true; One should focus their efforts on breeding pure angolans which are by nature and captivity, rare as can be. However, those who have invested the time to create said 'mutts' should not be branded with such blame or accusation. They have devoted much time in their projects, and as I said, if it works, it works. If such variations (whether natural or fabricated) did not exist in nature, I don't think that we would exist. I feel that since this project has proven a compatibility between species, then by rights, it is not a bad thing. It's just when one fails to believe a proven potential in such a discovery, do we have aggitated debates on this subject. I trust that the only two companies that have produced the angolan ball have respected the rarity of the angolan pythons, and do not intend to 'mass produce' their efforts and hand them out to every novice and spontaneous breeder to make a quick income. I feel they have made a discovery which could be taken in the hands of either good or evil.
I do understand the whole contraversy, and I agree that these animals should not be made a substitute for a dwindling species. I DO feel that these animals should be celebrated for their variation and so with it, the discovery of their compatibility. So, yea...that's my take on it...please don't hunt me don't and threaten to rip my livers out through my nostils just because our thoughts are different...Take care, THANKS FOR YOUR PATIENCE!!
Best Wishes,
-A

>>Now we've got the Diamond x Jungle Carpet python syndrome occurring with a species that is infrequently bred. It is sad to see that people are too "cheap" to purchase an angolan female, so they opt for the cheaper male, and cross it with the 100 dollar female ball, and what do you know, some people got lucky. I don't understand why one would do this, I think that more people should breed PURE angolans, before any thought of hybridization should come about. Now there will be these hybrids floating around, that will then be crossed back to a pure angolan, and so on, so soon, a hard-to-find species will be replaced with "mutts" and impure specimens. Just look at jungle carpet pythons- there is a very small percentage of pure jungles being bred, most are an integrade of some sort, whether it be diamond influence, or coastal carpet influence. The same thing applies here; that one b_____rd was too cheap to afford a diamond python female, so he decided to go the cheaper way and crossing it to a jungle female, and voila! look at the mutts commonly offered for sale nowadays... Crosses don't even look as good as pure jungles or pure diamonds....so why do it??
>>
>>What's next? Is someone going to be too cheap to buy a female blackhead python, so instead they cross a blackhead male with a woma female?? I personally disagree with hybridizing species, especially species that are infrequently kept and bred. just my thoughts....
>>
>>bob
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Seeing that your opinion has been noted. We just wanted to say for the record that included in our collection is 3.3 adult angolan pythons. So you might want to re-think the whole

"It is sad to see that people are too "cheap" to purchase an angolan female, so they opt for the cheaper male, and cross it with the 100 dollar female ball, and what do you know, some people got lucky "

comment and ask a little more detail before you accuse. This will really get to you !!! As far as the Blackhead comment, well we also have 1.2 Eastern Phase Black Heads that we are breeding this year and no plans have been made to out cross them.

Please understand that these snakes will never be mass produced. It took many years for this project to be complete and now that it is we will enjoy the little gold eyed guy that we have made. You really should get all the details before jumping to conclusions because even though we made a cross we still breed pure Angolan Pythons and trust me if there was any made using the Angolan Ball cross you would see it in the offspring !!! Please do not hesitate for one minute to jump out from behind that keyboard and give me a call at 469-363-0635 to discuss this and get all of your info straight.

Thanks,
Wyatt

TW Intl Inc.

I personally would love to be able to keep and breed pure Indian pythons. Unfortunately I have found no one that has them who can say 100% that they are pure. Thanks to cross breeding with burms and even Ceylonese, it may be impossible. I know all about the Burms and Indians laying tons of eggs and balls and Angoloans lying 3-6, but in the LONG TERM I see a muddy market if this is the trend. There are not that many Angolans produced every year, so why must someone cross them with a ball python? It is hard enough finding a normal, non-het. captive bred ball python anymore. It is just frustrating to see breeders that have such success, such as NERD, and Wyatt putting even 5% of their talent towards producing "mutts". Just my $.02 Derek

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Edited on January 18, 2004 at 22:59:35 by phwyvern.

Derek,
Your opinions are noted and just for the record we are not a hybrid procucer ( other than the one we did produce )!! Also in your comment you need to realize that this project is a sole personal project and will not be redone in the near future and trust me there is an obvious difference between an angolan cross and a regular angolan. You are worrying to much about out-crossing using the hybrid rather than the success of a cross species breeding. It's not like I bred a Retic to a Burmese python and used it the Borneo bat eaters for other breeding projects !!!

Thanks,
Wyatt

My point is that I am trying to think of the long term. If hybridization continues, especially within animals that are rare in captivity, how are you to be certain that in 10, 20 or even 40 years that these snakes you are producing will not "leak" into the mainstream. Unless you plan on destroying the hybrid animals if/when you decide that snake breeding is not for you anymore or sterilizing them somehow, you cannot be 100% sure that the "angolan-ball" won't end up in pet stores in the future as some sort of ball "morph" instead of what it really is. A hybrid. My question, and that of many others is....why? Derek

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Edited on January 18, 2004 at 23:00:25 by phwyvern.

Easy enough to answer... Like I stated above SELECTIVE BREEDING !!! I cannot asure you that someone else will produce an Angolan X. But what I can say is that we and one other person in this hobby ( that I am aware of ) have produced this kind of hybrid to date, and we have no intention of LEAKING this snake onto the market. As far as sterility goes, that is just an assumption since the other breeder with these X's has attempted to breed the male and has had no success. Your worry of future cross hybridization is valid, but I think you should worry more about an Retic X Burmese making it onto the market and reproducing or a Diamond/Jungle cross far before this type of hybrid does. Please feel free to call me and debate this matter at 469-363-0635.

Thanks,
Wyatt

I think it would make more sense to breed it to an albino ball.And albino Angolan would rock.Kevin and Wyatt certainly have the resources.
The Jungle Carpet Diamond to the best of my recolection was produced to strengthen the blood line. I forget which component but one of them had a high percent of early mortality in captivity.
The hogg island was mentioned. I don't know that location distinctions makes crossbreeding but if so this is the perfect animal to do it with. They are rare even in their homeland. And if you look at the orange flame any snake fan would be hard pressed not to say bravo, regardless of their commitments.
The angolan is also rare. The country it comes from has been in civil and mercenary war for years. Establishing a bloodline even through crossbreeding to continue the species beyond extiction cant be all that bad of a thing in my opinion.
And since some folks have mentioned location specific breeding as x breeding. Look at the argentine boa, it has the very distinctive and beautiful head, crossed with the albino it is a truly marvelous animal.
Anyway, I look forward to the albino ball x angolan, the azanthic ball x angolan and the snow ball Angolan.
Keep in mind that all species of dogs derived from the wolf. So everything hort of a pure bred wolf is some form of cross breed. The mutts that came after the blue bloods are just things going to far. I really dont see snakes brreding in the nieghborhood the same way dogs have.
I also would like to pointout that those saying money the loudest want to create a colony of anglans for sale.
I think in their case it is more wallet than ethics.

Were the siblings from the same clutch? I see pastels, so I'm wondering what the parents were, or if there were two different males bred to the female.

hybridizing angolans, I would rule you out as my source for angolans. Same goes for all other hybrid lovers, why risk when there are other great pure angolan breeders.

After all, why would I doubt if my purchase from you are angolans from your pure adults?

Not worth me loosing sleep over doubting you....

Well it is a shame that we have sold out of all of our 2003 Angolan babies and have exhausted the list for 2004. I was going to hold one back for you.

Thanks,
Wyatt

I have to state up front that I am a hybrid hater. I think valid points have been brought up reguarding certain crosses that have made it difficult to know if you are getting pure bred animals, Indians, and Carpet Pythons. I think if someone wants to make a cross, and keep them as a fun side item, that is fine. However, if crosses are made to sell, and possibly taint the gene pool, I do have a problem with this. I think Hogg Island boas are amazing looking animals in their own right, and should be kept seperated from mailand ssp. They have been crossed, and my fear is this: The hybrid animal may be "cool" for a year or two, but then, the "newness" wears off, nobody wants to buy one, so the animals and the offspring are sold with no hybrid tag. The same scenerio is possible with the Ball X Angolan crosses one day. I just do not see an up side with any hybrid. The other valid points that I agree with is when purchasing Angolans, which I will be in the market for this year or next, I will not willingly buy from someone who has crossed the animal I am interested in,,,for two reasons. I will not give my money to someone who produces hybrids, just my personal decision, and two, I will always wonder if the animals I purchased are indeed pure blood lines.

thats all you really care about, is them losing value??

who cares who makes hybrids and makes them? i think you guys are being sour pusses for not having an angolan and being able to cross it with a ball. Hybrid Vigor will make the crosses worthwile. and you will get hybrid vigor. Quit thinking about money and let people do what they want.

Nice snake TW.

Dayve,
Well I guess you have never heard of selective breeding. You see I have the ability to guarantee the genetics of any Angolan python I sell to be 100% pure Angolan. But I guess that since the Angolan cross that NERD produced has never been able to reproduce you may be in luck and just like when you breed a horse to a donkey to make a sterile mule then we may indeed have a true sterile snake.

Thanks,
Wyatt

Wyatt,

I understand that you can breed a Ball to an Angolan, and YOU will know the offspring are hybrids. If they are all sterile, good deal, but if they are not, once they leave your hands, you can guarantee nothing. The person who buys the hybrid can breed it to whatever they want...and may not sell them as hybrids. I do not know what you mean by, "I guess you do not know about selective breeding"...

Dave

By selective breeding I mean that we know what we breed to what and when. As stated by my partner and friend we have never and will never sell an Angolan cross hybrid !! This was strictly a project for us and since we have the capability of doing it and because of the time it actually took to produce the hybrid, we are extremely proud of our success as so are others. Since there are only two of us that have ever bred these two species ( believe me there are a ton more breeders that are trying ) I think that through selective breeding we will always stand behind any of our stock beit boas, blackheads, albino retics or balls that they are 100% pure blood or even if they are a cross of some kind we will back that to with our word and guarantee.

Thanks,
Wyatt

I decided to speak up for a change.... For those of you who do not know me I am Wyatt's business partner at TW International. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Many have strong opinions of hybridization of species. I want to point something out to everyone that reads this forum. We are not selling hybrids. Let me repeat this. The Angolan X is not for sale and will never be for sale. Wyatt and I like many of you breed reptiles because of how much we love them. I am tired of hearing people say I won't buy this or that because you have a hybrid. Ok don't buy from us... we are really not that worried about it. Most people know we back up our animals and take care of the people who work with us. I like the Angolan X... we produced it for our collection and posted it for those that would like to see it. We should have posted it in the hybrid section not here in the ball forum. Oh well...

We both want to say thank you to everyone that has been posting positive remarks about our up and coming projects. The same thank you to the ones that have not liked them. Getting everyone's point of view is fun and helpful in our breeding projects.

Hope to see all of you at Daytona 2004,

Dr Trager

I don't understand all the fuss about hybrids. I know this isn't the hybrid forum, but really, unless someone knows the exact locality of their specimens (say, locality North American ratsnakes or kingsnakes), then they could be producing hybrids without even knowing it. There are so many undescribed species of herps out there that breeders rarely know just what they're working with.

Who's to say that all ball pythons are one species anyway? We don't have the information yet. There's good evidence that green tree pythons comprise several species, yet the chondro people hybridize these freely, just because they haven't been formally split yet. Look at scrub pythons -- several forms that are obviously different were considered the same species until recently, and hybrids were produced. Now the same thing seems to be happening with retics.

Even within species, there are regional variants and local adaptations. Captive breeeding is still fun and worthwhile, but until we have detailed information, there's no way that the offspring can be considered viable in a conservation sense (i.e., do they represent "real" species and would they prosper if released back into the wild?).

Yes, they have to change the definition of what a species is...up until now, a species is defined as an organism that can reproduce in order to make more viable offspring of its own kind. Clearly, we have seen this disproven, especially in coloubrids, among other animals. There has been talk now of revising this definition to organisms who reproduce in NATURE to create viable offspring. All of these hybrids have been performed in a "lab" situation. Under no circumstances do retics and burms' ranges overlap, where they would encounter one another in the wild, nor would coastal carpet pythons x chondros, nor balls and angolans. These hybrids are not "naturally occurring", just like the "jurassic milksnake/kingsnake" mutts that are ever so popular nowadays in the coloubrid world.

Somebody posted that there is variation and cross-breeding/hybridization in wild populations, which I will not deny does occur, an example of this might be yellow rat snakes and corn snakes, or species whose ranges NATURALLY overlapp. Hoever, the crosses that we are talking about are not naturally occurring, so why do it?

It is just my opinion, but I think we should keep the hobby pure. IS there not enough ball python mutations out there, that one must hybridize to get something new? Let's let ball pythons be ball pythons, and anoglan pythons be angolan pythons. Thanks for your time..

bob

Under no circumstances, ever, will captive ball pythons here in the United States, or europe for that matter, will ever be released into the wild for consevation purpases. It is silly to think that we are all doing "our part" in conservation by breeding and keeping ball pythons, as well as other species. Yes, it is increasing a species population here in captivity, however, these animals cannot and willnot ever be rereleased. As good as it might sound, it will cause an ecological catastrophy, especially because of all the pathogens that have been floating around in captivity, as well as the weak genes cause by selective breeding for morphs.

If we really wanted to conserve, the ball python, or other species, you must first start with stopping the exportation of hundreds of thousands of ball pythons each year. Do you not think that by sending thousands of adult females over here to the states, to found our breeding projects, is not taking a horrible toll on the wild population over there?? It is our greed that is attributing this. Soon, if no legislation is done to protect the species, as well as others, they will no longer exist in the wild, only in captivity. And there will be nothing that we can do to "re-stock" wild populations, because of the ecological threat.. What's gone is gone...

bob