Reptile & Amphibian Forums

lewisi x nubila, nubilia x caymanensis, caymanensis x lewisi,

Isn't that problem caused by the fact that no one has pure caymanesis or pure lewisi to breed?

If both sexes of bakeri were available to hobbyists, pure bakeri would proliferate. The price would then come down, oops. It's the same with monitors. Some people make oddball crosses, but most who want to breed their lizards want the pure offspring. These hobbyists provide some very rare species to the herper culture, like various tree monitors and now even CB croc monitors. I wish the Fiji ig were in the hobbyist realm, so people could breed them to sell them to other serious hobbyists.

Roger

For years some who thought they had pure Lewisi talked down about those who they thought had hybrids. When DNA testing became available and it turned out that nobody in the private sector has a pure pair of lewisi, did it stop anyone from breeding their iguanas ? No, and it seems a bit two sided.

Many of the first nubila hybrids were produced by institutions that did not know any better. The Cyclura Nubila Cross problem is an out of the ordinary situation.

Who is breeding similus with hemilopha or any other ctenosaura hybrids for that matter ? As long as people are educated, I think they will want to do the right thing. As it becomes more available to the general public, the price goes down, and so does the incentive for poaching.

I agree with you.

Roger

And yes there is truth to what Jeff has said to me in the past concerning this. I started having conversations with some of the more experienced cyclura breeders and lewisi are no walk in the park as so with a few of the other species. Basically cornuta and nubila are quite easy to breed. I talked with Bob Ehrig and he said that the more pure the animals are the tougher they are. He only produces a couple animals a year that are about 90% pure. I believe Blair tried unsuccessfully to breed pinguis. Not all cyclura are the same. I did put my foot in my mouth last time I argued this with Jeff. Does anyone know who was responsible for the lewisi hybrids that screwed up the whole captive population?

I don't think any one individual is responsible for lewisi hybridization. After DNA testing, there were even animals on the Cayman Island that had to be sterilized because they were deemed hybrids.
Blair did breed pinguis, just not as successfully as he would have liked, SD Zoo has done a much better job. Maybe the problem with breeding near pure lewisi is that they are too inbreed ? Aren't there alot of people breeding brother/sister animals just to try to keep it pure ? Figinsi, Ricordi and many of the other cycluras are more difficult to breed than cubans and rhinos, but should that and the risk of hybridization be reasons to deny access to the serious hobbyiest ? Are Bakeri hard to breed ?

have the answers to any of your questions about cyclura and ctenosaura. The last question about denying serious hobbiest the chance to keep these animals is an ongoing arguement that has pros and cons. I really don't think hybridization and difficulty breeding are the only reasons we as hobbyist are not allowed access to these animals. I think that it really boils down to exploitation and money. The minute these animals hit the hobby they usually end up in the pet trade. Once that happens then an incredible price tag is put on them and that in turn opens the door for people who will do just about anything to make a buck. Plus the arguement that these animals can be used to cover illegals. Then there is the arguement that if these animals are bred and offered to hobbyist that there would be less of a black market for them. Who knows??? Anyway I tend to agree with you that these animals should not be denied if there is a surplus. There are ways around this like having the people who get the animals sign into a contract that they will only dispose of any offspring of the said animals by the way the giving institution sees fit. Another words the animals are not really yours you are just keeping them to satisfy your own personal needs and that alone should make anyone who really loves the animals happy. But now a little story about that. Three years ago I got 2.3.3 Sauromalus varius as a gift from the Arizona Sonora Desert Museum. I entered into a contract like I mentioned above. I told no one about it until it was a done deal. Well after I got them I was so excited about it that I started telling friends and acquintances in the hobby that I got them and the conditions on which I got them. Not one of them said "Wow! You are really lucky to get to work with those animals. That is something you have always wanted to do." Every single one of them said "What is the sense in having them if you can't sell the offspring? I would not have took them under those conditions. You're a fool!" This is from people who supposedly keep reptiles just because they love them. Also when I got these animals I was sure I could breed them as I have produced hundreds of S. ater over the previous 7 years. A chuckwalla is a chuckwalla right? Well I am going into my second breeding season this spring and I am not so sure I will ever breed these animals. They are completely different than ater. I lost one adult female during hibernation my first year and have had skin problems on 2 of the others because their needs differ greatly from the mainland chuckwallas. This is just s little of my experience dealing with endangered species. I guess what I am saying as that I can see both sides of the story. It may sound wishy-washy but it is truely a tough arguement either way. I really think a lot of these institutions that have these animals would let them out(if they had a surplus and there were no other proffessional institutions in need) to people that have built a relationship with them and they feel they can trust. Well I hope you did not fall asleep reading this as I tend to get long winded. Just my 2 cents. Tom

The contract idea is a good one. Not that I am interested in any endagered species, but for those who are, it makes sense. Sorry to hear about your difficulties with the San Estaban Chucks. I wonder just how long they hybernate on that little island halfway down the coast of Baja. It gets cold down there, but the sun still comes out and it can be hot during the day. I don't think the people breeding Estaban Spinies are hybernating their igs. Good luck with the chucks, Hope to hear a success report in the future.

i agree with you tom, there are so many people out there that are only interested to make fast money with rare species, not only reptiles (parrots, mammals,....).
Only a handfull of people interested in a contract, when you say that all the produced offspring of this pair belongs to the breeding projekt, they are only allowed to work with them.

I talk with friends in Europe. Henk Zwortepoorte and Piet Mantell(Maybe you know them) and they say that the professionals and amatuer herpetologist work togther there. A lot more so than in the USA and I believe that is why the Europeans are so much more advanced in husbandry and breeding than we are here. I wish I could read other languages as there are a ton of books from over there with a lot of good info. All I can do is look at the pictures.

zz