Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello;
Please excuse my ignorance on this matter but I wanted to ask if the Fly River Turtle is LEGAL to keep in the US ? If so is anyone out there breeding them in any numbers ? Thank you

It's legal to keep them, but no one is breeding them, which would mean that most of the ones one the US market are likely illegal imports. Al Weinberg put out a statement a year or so ago on this subject, and I think it was published in Reptiles magazine. They get up to 22 inches, and need exacting water requirements, so not a turtle for anyone with a budget or time constraints!

Katrina

Agreed-
PNT's are not readily bred and certainly not in the US.
As to keeping them sucessfully. You should be a master aquarist rather than turtle keeper. If you understand the maintaining a healthy aquarium of fish then keeping a Flyriver turtle is not problematic at all. You will need a LARGE tank (or even a pond -- which for this specie would mean pretty much and INDOOR pond in most all of the US. Water quality is important too. They are a tough turtle and perhaps one of the cleanest you will encounter but you must be able to keep a nice, clean and well cycled aquarium in order to maintain them sucessfully. There can be none of the 100% water change business. The best way to keep them is the way you keep a tropical fish. I am over simplifying this -- the bottom line is if you ever want to keep this specie you really must do your homework.

Steve

Thanks Steve..Please if have anu additional tips or photos of any setups, please email me off board..THANKS;
Greg

Actually, the captive husbandry of fish and turtles are quite different. Since turtles do not require O2 from the source of water they reside in, turtles can, and do, fare better then fish in less then favorable conditions, though it is unwise to maintain them in such.
While clean water is of great importance when keeping C. insculpta, you do not necessarily have to be concerned with the various conditions, in regards to bacteria, nitrite and nitrates as you do when keeping fish.
One does not require a "master" knowledge of aquarium maintenance, to properly maintain C. insculpta, but one must be diligent in their watch, to ensure the water is continually clean, warm and moving.
Also, there are a number of documented accounts in regards to the captive husbandry of C. insculpta. The Queensland Zoological Gardens, University of Canbera and here in the US, the Memphis Zoological Gardens have has success with such. While I have heard reports of captive husbandry within the private sector, I have yet to see conclusive evidence this is so, but it is not out of reach, or outside of the near future, though I doubt we will see propogation on a commercial scale anytime soon.
I am currently focused on such a project and hope to see the first results of success this fall.

Best wishes to all of you,

Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
Department of Biology
jssnodgres@uams.edu

You know, I really don't want to see large scale production of a turtle that gets to be 22 inches. We're having enough trouble finding homes for unwanted sulcata tortoises. Captive breeding, sure, but large scale production?

Katrina

I apologize, but I had to laugh about your comparison in regards to the production of Geochelon sulcata and Carettochelys insculpta. You have obviously had very little experience with the latter of the two.
When I mention commercial scale production, I am not simply referring to increading numbers for the US "pet market." That would be extremely narrow minded thinking.
I feel as though husbandry, on the commercial level, would be of great benefit worldwide, as both adult turtles and their eggs are heavily poached in their native habitat. You see, C. insculpta, as are many species of turtles, are looked upon as a source of food and medicine, both within their native range and throught Asia. To produce them on a commercial scale would allow a relief for the wild populations.
Also, I have (2) specimens of C. insculpta which have been in my care for almost 15 years. Both were 3" when I obtained them and they are currently at 16" This species maintains a steady, but VERY slow growth rate, very much unlike the G. sulcata you compared them to. Also, VERY few individuals would be willing to make the commitment of time and expense required to develop and maintain such a captive husbandry program.
While I find it unfortunate that C. insculpta are still being imported into the US. I do fully believe that captive husbandry will be nothing short of beneficial to the species as a whole and since they do not mature, sexually, until the age of 30 years, I doubt that commercial production levels will ever be achieved, though I for one, would welcome such success

Of course I have no experience with the fly river turtle. I live in a townhome, and likely won't upgrade any time soon - no room for a very large turtle. Plus, I don't purchase wild-caught. It is because of the fact that "VERY few individuals would be willing to make the commitment of time and expense required to develop and maintain such a captive husbandry program" that I try to discourage the average hobbyist from purchasing them. Unless one is willing to maintain a turtle for the long-term, why purchase it? If one is not intent upon breeding (all the better if to ease pressure on native populations), then why purchase a wild-caught animal?

I do agree with your reasoning, though.

Katrina

Posted by: epidemic at Mon Jan 26 11:21:23 2004

I apologize, but I had to laugh about your comparison in regards to the production of Geochelon sulcata and Carettochelys insculpta. You have obviously had very little experience with the latter of the two.
When I mention commercial scale production, I am not simply referring to increading numbers for the US "pet market." That would be extremely narrow minded thinking.
I feel as though husbandry, on the commercial level, would be of great benefit worldwide, as both adult turtles and their eggs are heavily poached in their native habitat. You see, C. insculpta, as are many species of turtles, are looked upon as a source of food and medicine, both within their native range and throught Asia. To produce them on a commercial scale would allow a relief for the wild populations.
Also, I have (2) specimens of C. insculpta which have been in my care for almost 15 years. Both were 3" when I obtained them and they are currently at 16" This species maintains a steady, but VERY slow growth rate, very much unlike the G. sulcata you compared them to. Also, VERY few individuals would be willing to make the commitment of time and expense required to develop and maintain such a captive husbandry program.
While I find it unfortunate that C. insculpta are still being imported into the US. I do fully believe that captive husbandry will be nothing short of beneficial to the species as a whole and since they do not mature, sexually, until the age of 30 years, I doubt that commercial production levels will ever be achieved, though I for one, would welcome such success

Agreed! and I doubt the "average" hobbyist is willing to shell out 400.00 and up on a turtle. However, people who set their mind to things, will often find the means to accomplish what they set out to do.
There are always going to be individuals willing to break laws for a dollar, or two. This is what keeps the illegal importation trade alive and well. Illegal reptile importation, to the US, is second only to the importation of narcotics.
Most of the specimens in my collection were confiscated from such shipments, though I am happy to have them, I would rather they remained within their native habitat.
My point is, if the "average" hobbyist is intent on acquiring a C. insculpta, such an individual is going to do so. I for one, am willing to provide all of the information and support, that I can, to ensure the specimen thrives, not merely survives in captivity. While I will attempt to sway an individual away from such an acquisition, I'd rather them acquire one and openly ask for information, rather then acquire one, hide the fact and go it alone. Besides, hobbyist, averages ones included, have been very beneficial to the discovery of proper husbandry techniques and observed behaviors for a variety of species, once believed to be "difficult" by the "professional" community. Drymarchon and certain species of Lampropeltis are good examples of such.

Take care,

Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
jssnodgres@uams.edu
501.526.4856

As has been addressed, Caretocchelys insculpta (Fly River Turtles) are indeed illegal to import into the US. This went into effect at the CITES 18th meeting of the Animals Committee in Santiago, Chile in November of 02.
The problem stems from the Papau New Guinea's lack of involvement as a member country to CITES, which is to be addressed and hopefully corrected at the Twentieth convention this March in Johannesburg, South Africa. Since PNG is not a member of CITES, at this time, they can, and do, export wildlife, C. insculpta to other countries, especially Asia, as they are commonly found in the market areas throughout Asia, even albino specimens are seen from time to time.
Once in the US, it is perfectly legal to engage in interstate and inrastate commerce with no permit being required, unless of course, you reside within an area which enforces local ordinances in regards to such.

Best of luck to you,

Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
Department of Biology
jssnodgres@uams.edu