Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Was wondering if anyone has haerd of any studies or research and devlepment on birth control for geckos, a hormonal dose that would prevent female leos from creating eggs. It seems to me like this could be useful in at least three situations:

1) Pet female geckos never intended to breed, to prevent potential impaction from development of unfertilized eggs.

2.) Males and females housed together, when you want to control the breeding time, not have them breed to early, or have them "skip a year" breeding, yet still keep together.

3.) Females that "over-lay", who will lay themselves near to death, beyond where their resources are depleted to an unhealthy level. Drug/hormone would halt lay cycle.

Thoughts? Info?
-----
Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

One other situation also. The one i'm in. When i put my geckos together, i hope they dont breed because i dont have a reliable outlet for the babies. And i can have no more pets in the house cause my parents. Now, if they breed in 2 years when i'm out of the house, that would be fine.

because they will breed. Unless you want to just throw away the eggs, I'd keep them separated. Its a lot of unnecessary stress on your female to put her through that.
-----

The following sentence is true.
The above sentence is false.

4.4 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Marbled Gecko
1.1 Red Eared Sliders
0.2 Siamese Mice

Why not just keep males and females apart from eachother??? That is the best form of birh control..... Why would you wnat to keep them from breeding in the first place???? The reasons given are pretty silly too....... What else should we do to this species???? Some gene pools are weak enough from inbreeding..... I dont see a good reason to make them weaker.....

It's not silly at all. If you had taken the time to actually read my original post, you would have noted one life-saving application, which is that some females will "lay themselves to death", or at least far past what is healthy for their body reserves, even if they start out the season in good condition. I know of several breeders that have had this problem, and a hormone that would STOP the lay cycle would be a tremendous medical benefit that could save lives. Also, there are situations like what happened to me last summer, when some of my breeder hets got a bacterial infection while in their lay cycle, and the last thing you want a sick gecko doing is putting additional body resources towards egg laying when she is ill or recovering. A hormone that would stop that cycle would have a lot of medical benefits beyond convenience.

If it happened to be easy to administer and low risk, there could be other applications as well. Yes one can house geckos seperately, but sometimes people buy geckos that are (to their surprise ) gravid, when they don't want them to have babies. Leos can store sperm for up to a year, so just seperating the male does not make the female stop laying.
-----
Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

they are small animals and who knows what results could happen.
-----
1.2.1 Leopard Geks
1.0.1 High Yellow, 0.1 Blizzard, 0.1 Normal
2 White's Treefrogs
2.1 Fire Bellied Toads
0.0.2 Red Eared Sliders
1 Spotted Tail Warty Newt
Fish:
0.2 Parrot Cichlids
1 Upside Down Catfish
0.0.2 Bullhead Catfish
1 Geophagus jurupari
1 Fire Barb
0.0.4 Blue Gouramis
Goldfish

Herpin since 93'

To stimulate laying- oxytocin is used as a first line treatment for eggbinding, but it doesn't always work, and then surgery is required.

All western medicine is "unnatural", but testing and research to develop effective treatments can provide health benefits and save lives. If your gecko's health was in jeopardy wouldn't you prefer to be able to treat her to make her better rather than just let nature take its course? Do you not believe in medical care for people or for animals?

I am wondering if anyone knows of any testing or research in this area, or enough aout the science of it to know if it is even feasible.
-----
Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

A you have to do is seperate them to prevent mating.
If the mating has occured and you don't want eggs, nad want them gone it is almost like gecko abortion.
Maybe if it was a female that hasn't breed yet, but still produces infertile eggs, than it will be useful if it was on death bed. But if it is healthy, why jeopardize it with injections.
Now if the eggs are or could be fertile (has been breed recently), why would you want to kill those babies.
Also if a person wants a gecko/reptile they should know how to take care of it instead of finding the easy way through it. Even though leos are somtimes called domestic, they are still reptiles and should be treated that way.

sorry for any bad spelling
-----
1.2.1 Leopard Geks
1.0.1 High Yellow, 0.1 Blizzard, 0.1 Normal
2 White's Treefrogs
2.1 Fire Bellied Toads
0.0.2 Red Eared Sliders
1 Spotted Tail Warty Newt
Fish:
0.2 Parrot Cichlids
1 Upside Down Catfish
0.0.2 Bullhead Catfish
1 Geophagus jurupari
1 Fire Barb
0.0.4 Blue Gouramis
Goldfish

Herpin since 93'

What about overlaying problems, when a gecko (who was in good breeding condition at the start of a season) will lay herself to death or to ill health? Don't you think a hormone that would stop the laying cycle would be extremely medically beneficial? I do, and know of other breeders that do as well.

To say stopping eggs from being produced for a whole season after a mating is like gecko abortion is factually inaccurate and IMO absurd. But then people who are anti-birth control and anti-medicine are IMO fanatics anyway.

In any case, thanks for your input but I feel this line of discussion is going nowhere constructive. I had hoped for some scientific information on whether this is possible or if any reasearch has been done, I am not interested in addressing obviously incorrect statements such as "You can't give hormones to a gecko", "You can't inject a gecko" or debating whether the premise of medical treatment for health problems is "kind" or not.
-----
Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

if someone did come up with a special hormone, i would like to look into it.
-----
1.2.1 Leopard Geks
1.0.1 High Yellow, 0.1 Blizzard, 0.1 Normal
2 White's Treefrogs
2.1 Fire Bellied Toads
0.0.2 Red Eared Sliders
1 Spotted Tail Warty Newt
Fish:
0.2 Parrot Cichlids
1 Upside Down Catfish
0.0.2 Bullhead Catfish
1 Geophagus jurupari
1 Fire Barb
0.0.4 Blue Gouramis
Goldfish

Herpin since 93'

to quote from the post directly:

"To stimulate laying- oxytocin is used as a first line treatment for eggbinding, but it doesn't always work, and then surgery is required."

i think u have the right idea sara. true oxytocin, also known as pitocin, is injected as a way to stimulate/induce the contractions of uterine smooth muscle. i know people in the past have used it on egg bound snakes, geckos etc...however i disagree with using it on reptiles in general because if u look at the past studies done in laboratories, almost all the experiements were done on WARM blooded animals (mammals).

very few experiments/studies with oxytocin on reptiles have been done on a large scale (relatively comparing) to mammals. if one examines and compares the overall biochemical and hormonal cycles between warm and cold blooded animals- it is obvious that they are in deed very different.
in addition, most of the people i know that have tried using oxytocin on egg bound reptiles only tacked on additional vet bills for no reason (surgery is expensive too but). any vet specializing in reptiles recommending an injection of oxytocin is in my opinion wrong.
i quote directly from a friend who is a 3rd vet student when asked about injecting oxytocin into egg bound reptile females:
"oxytocin don't do S***!"

not trying to start any flame wars, but i think the most common way female geckos get eggbound are if they are bred too young/underweight/unhealthy. also in my experience if a female is "laying herself to death" (which has never happened to me in leos but does happen in other species of geckos), i recommend dropping her temps a bit to slow down her metabolism. just because all the books say to keep at 88-92F hot spot doesn't mean it's like that all year round in the wild! in the wild, they are exposed to a "warm" and a "cooler" season, these periods are what stimulate the hypothalamus into releasing hormones to get the body ready for breeding. if her body is triggered into breeding mood and it stays "warm" for 12 months straight, she is only doing what her body is naturally telling her to do- which is lay lay lay...

anyways, just some thoughts. i'll like to hear feedback/comments. thanks

-SFgeckos

-SFgeckos

"very few experiments/studies with oxytocin on reptiles have been done on a large scale (relatively comparing) to mammals."

It seems like this is the case in MOST areas of reptile medicine, unfortunately. Many of the treatments seem to be just translated from mammal vet medicine, and there are a lot of differences in physiology and toxicity.

Thankfully, I've never had a female either eggbound or overlay, yet...hopefully I never will(fingers crossed). I am pretty conservative about when I breed, so hopefully I will not encounter eggbinding but it seems to effect anyone who breeds geckos at one point or another. A friend of mine had his bearded dragon die from eggbinding, she was never mated, did not realize the problem until it was too late. I will remember your cooling recommendation if I ever have a problem with a female laying too much, I know this can and does happen in leopard geckos but I don't know how common/rare it is. I have seen several people relate their oxytocin experiences here and said it worked, eventually, but it took several shots, also some who had to go to surgery anyway. I haven't heard anyone who noticed any ill effects from the oxytocin, have you? Do you think it is dangerous, or just ineffective? Do you think it is a matter of the dosage not being accurate in reptiles, or something else?

Thanks Jon for sharing your input and knowledge.
-----
Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

Oxytocin, (pitocin) is indeed the synthetic hormone used to induce uterine contractions, but is much more effective when used used with an injection of liquid calcium just prior to injecting the hormone. Sometimes, several treatments over a period of a few days are required.

I agree that the sexual immaturity of a female leopard gecko plays a key role in the ability to lay eggs (especially first- timers,) but I also believe that there are many other factors, ie; lack of an appropriate place to lay the eggs, the size of the female and/or eggs, the blood calcium levels, the amount of systemic reabsorption of infertile eggs, etc.
-----
Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

In principle, not such a bad idea, but it would probably be too dangerous and expensive. Dangerous in that geckos are so small, so dosages would have to be extremely accurate or else toxicity could occur. Also, it would be hard to find a good way to administer. Picture the smallest bore needle used at a hospital, compare it to the gecko, and it would probably be like injecting him with a pencil. I may be exaggerating a little but you get the idea.

Shots are not a problem, I've given a follow-up shot of antibiotic to my gecko (prescribed and given to me my vet who showed me how to do it). I believe oxytocin is administered by shot.

A bigger issue I suppose is how does the hormonal process of egg generation work in leos? I'm assuming it is hormone regulated. I am guessing there may be a hormone that could halt egg production but I really don't know. It seems like so much of medicine as pertains to leopard geckos is generalized from other reptiles and even from mammals in many cases.

I am corresponding with a biologist who does research with sex determination in leopard geckos, maybe I will ask him. I just thought someone here might know, there are some pretty knowledgeable people around here.
-----
Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

Well I suppose if its been done before shots aren't that big of a deal. But still what about the issues of cost, how often would it have to be done, and what about potential negative effects? Such as lethargy, weight problems, etc? Perhaps it would be kinder to consider less invasive ways to deal with such problems as you mentioned. Such as what environmental qualities induce a leo to ovulate? If there was a way to manipulate that maybe it wouldnt be necessary to resort to drugs. I guess I just think you have to explore all the options if you have a leo that won't stop laying or something like that.

Sorry, this is frustrating. I had hoped to get some scientific info, resource links, or intelligent feedback from someone who knows more about gecko biology and research than I do and it just isn't happening.

I have no idea why you are arguing against something that doesn't (to my knowledge) even exist yet. I don't even know if there is research into it or not. Obviously there are real problems and some circumstances that would be greatly helped by such a development, if it is even possible. If there was a good, fast, known solution to it people wouldn't have some of these problems (eggbinding in virgin retiles, overlaying, etc...) would they? Yes you can take a female out of a breeding room so she is not as exposed to breeding hormones, that will help but often not quickly enough. Virgin reptiles will sometimes produce eggs and get eggbound even without exposure to male, this can be tricky because ownders are not expecting eggbinding in a reptile that has not been mated. At the very least I think it would be a great treatment for overlaying, if it is possible. If some people are too cheap to pay for the best medical care for their geckos that is their and their gecko's problem. To imply it is somehow unkind to provide the most effective medical treatment for health problems is in my view absolutely ridiculous.

But cost/profit is I think a major issue in why we don't have better medical treatments for and/or knowledge about many reptile problems than we currently do. I don't think there is much in the way of economic incentives to research herp medicine issues. And then there's people who won't take their geckos to the vet because they'd rather buy some new CD's or whatever. It's too bad.
-----
Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

I was simply commenting from a research standpoint not really arguing (at least not intentionally anyway). Those are all questions a researcher would have to explore. I did not mean to imply that it was necessarily a bad idea, just that one must consider whether the potential benefits will outweigh the negative aspects. That is the most important thing to consider when thinking about using any drug. I don't think I completely missed the point, the point is you were wondering if this was a feasible way to prevent geckos or maybe even other herps for that matter from laying themselves to death. And you would have to approach a researcher to get a definitive answer. Good luck, let us know if you find anything out about it.

I think there is very little information available when it comes to medical studies which involve reptiles. As far as a 'birth control' method for herps, I honestly doubt it would be a priority for researchers since the concern is getting reptiles and other undomesticated animals to breed in captivity. Heck, other than spaying/neutering, veterinary medicine still doesn't even have an effective method of birth control for dogs and cats yet. That would be a fantastic solution to all of the unwanted animals in the shelters!
-----
Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

People spay larger lizards for just this reason, but it would be very tough to do with leos. There's nothing infeasible about giving a shot to a gecko, I've given shots to 8 gram snakes (the entire syringe was longer than the animal, but she was fine). I haven't heard about any research in the area but it's not infeasible at all.
-----
"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

If people took the time to study the biology or the actual climate to where the species at hand is from, there would not be as many problems with them being egg bound or over breeding or sand impactions for that matter...... Cycle them and separate like they would in the wild, and most of the problems talked about would be a non issue or atleast much more uncommon....... Why is it that people see the need to take short cuts when it comes to reptiles...... People want venomous snakes that are nonvenomous so the rip their faces apart to take out the glands..... Now people are talkin about giving birth control to loes...... What is next????? Most of the problems that keepers face are because of the way they keep the animals...... People read care sheets like it was the bible..... Try to put some time into reading up on and studying the natural habitat of the species...... I bet noone who posted so far with the aception of a couple knows what the actual temps and humidity levels are in a leos home land..... Do some real research besides lookin on the net for leopard gecko care sheets..... Am I being radicle or realistic????

overlaying and eggbinding does happen even to the most knowledgeable and carinmg of breeders. You are quite right that information and proper care can eliminate *many* of such cases but I know these things have happened even to some of the most respected breeders. An effective therapy would be useful.
-----
Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos