Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Really I'm confused about the future of this Python. The price suggests it is an actual " mutation " , you know , like simple recessive or co- dominant. Or is it a mutation in the sence of someone being born with three eyes? Don't get me wrong I think dwarf species are neat and as far as the investment quality goes if you bought a pair at that price one breeding would MORE than recoup you orginal output of monies. With only 3 or 4 breeders worldwide though what happens to your dwarf when you eventually out of responsibility outcross? Why do dwarf retics sell for 400 to 750 dollars? I honestly don't get it.

Hi there,

These Dwarf Burmese are one of a kind. There has never been a report of a small race of Burmese Python, apart from the Sri Lankan which is still big. This race has been collected from an area which is being kept even from me at this moment in time.

Reticulated Pythons range over a large group of Islands. The 3 more common variations are Jampea, Kayuadi and Kalatoa. These snakes are proven to be smaller, and possibly even more docile. However, these snakes can be bought in from the wild without a problem. A breeder could not sell a Jampea retic for $10'000 when you could just import one for $500.

We are very confident that there will be no more of these pythons coming out of the wild, atleast for a number of years anyway. That leaves only a handful of breeders that people can get these from.

We are therefore in the same league as investment royal python breeders. There is only a few around, and if you want one, you have no choice but to come to us.

I have had so much interest over the last few days, that my guide price of £7'500 upwards, may have to be upped again.

Although, in itself a Dwarf Burmese may not appeal to everyone, once these have been bred into colour and pattern mutations, than a whole new era of small, colour morph pythons will have begun. With the extreme colour and pattern differences the Dwarf Burmese have, it is quite likely that we will see even more colour mutations from this line alone.

There is also the possibilities of crossing these with small races of Retics, making Dwarf 'Bateaters'. Not to mention with the added colour morphs coming from the retics...

It is hard for this to sink in to most people. All I can suggest, is that for anyone seriously interested in buying these animals, to arrange a date to view these animals in person, with anyone of the few breeders. You will all be blown away.

Regards
Chris Jones

Chris Jones Reptiles

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Regards
Chris Jones

It is irresponsible at this time (but not surprising in the reptile biz) for anyone to call these animals anything other than offspring of very small Burmese pythons Let people get the hatchlings, feed them normally, and see how they mature. Then if they grow into super small adults, fine, label them dwarfs or elves or midgets are any thing you please. I’ve got no problem with marketing hype. But, hey, if the breeders are so confident of what they’ve got, how about offering a double your money back guarantee if these wee ones mature into normal-sized Burmese pythons?

Anyway, I’m one of those people who just don’t get it with these tiny “giant” pythons. The huge size of a normal Burmese or retic is a major part of their appeal for me. It would be similar to preferring a dog breed like the Irish wolfhound and having someone trying to sell you a Chihuahua-sized one at 10 or more times the price. But to each their own!

-Joan

Hi there,

We know for a fact, that in the Wild, these snakes do not grow much bigger than any of the specimens we have. The largest animal from all that we have, is a 7.5ft female, which is very dark in colour, and quite obviously a very old animal.

When you say, 'normal feeding' regime, what would you call this? Normal, to me, is a diet similar to that of what it will get in the wild. We are not sure what this is exactly, but it certainly will not be pumping them full of rats 2 or more times a week.

Many breeders that buy these will want to pump them full of food and get them to maturity as soon as possible. We know that this is around 4ft or less for males, and 5ft or less for females. We know that normal burmese do not reach sexual maturity until about 8ft for males, 10ft for females. That is already less than half the size at breeding age.

What we do not yet know, is how fast they grow. And, if seriously over fed, will they infact grow slightly larger? Well, my prediction is that if overfed, yes, they might attain a length of 8 or 9ft over a period of several years. However, If you feed these once a week or less, as a standard feeding regime, my prediction is that they will stay small.

If you like burmese because you like their size, then it does not matter what you get. You just want a big snake. You could just as easily buy a retic, rock python, anaconda etc..

The reason why many people like burmese is because of their friendly nature, stunning colour and pattern, and ease of care. Now, it is possible someone can have this, at only a length of half the size or less.

It is agreeable that a large 16ft snake is impressive. However, its not a pet species. This on the other hand could be sold in most pet stores in years to come, as a good pet species, possibly even better than royal pythons.

Regards
Chris Jones
Chris Jones Reptiles

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Regards
Chris Jones

Unless this locale has existed in total isolation for a couple million years, it is entirely possible that once given the benefits of captive raising, including a more stable feeding regimen (which does not equate to pumping them full of rats)they will grow larger than the "adults" found in the wild. This discussion is as old as dirt on reptile forums. The captive born of smaller island locales grow larger than the original w/c adults and that is not meant to challenge your assumptions- it is just a fact of captivity. You may have a smaller Burmese over all but perhaps like the retic cousins they will be found to be unique sub species and not truly "dwarf" retics once the secrets are out and doctoral herpetological students study the specimens in their native area. "Dwarf" Burmese is nothing more than a marketing gimmick and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense. For all we know, they may simply be no more related to the popular Burmese python anymore than Tropidophis can be considered a dwarf Colombian.
But the larger problem I see is that with only one F1 generation to go by, a generation that was just hatched, and an original w/c population that has less than one year in captivity, we are seeing many assumptions flying around about adult size and temperament. What is wrong with taking the wait and see approach on this? I doubt anyone with the money will back off buying if the approach were one of more caution. Chances are that they will stay smaller than the Burmese, but just HOW small is only a guess. Our reptile industry reminds me very much of the fashion induustry. Herpers everywhere are strung along on the latest fads, lengths, and colors. There will always be something different, and something "new and improved," to add to the wish list and grow the ego. I'm glad to see there is honest discussion that brings this animal into relief as one with potential but no solid reference information.
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Marcia Pimentel
Tango River Reptiles (Off-line Temporarily)
GiantFeeders

First, my comments are not based on envy, I have the best job in herpetology and wouldn't change a thing. In addition to my extensive herp collection, including venomous, at my wildlife center, my house has an impressive collection to boot.

So, with that being said, I have been one of the skeptics on this whole issue since it first surfaced. I will only say that this hobby has become so focused on MONEY and racing to breed the next new morph, that it really makes my stomach sick. Ask 99% of burm owners what they know about the natural history of the burmese python and I would venture to guess that most wouldn't know a thing...but hey, we all have our own reasons for owning a burm; it's just too bad that more herp owners don't actively seek increasing their knowldege base.

When I see the amount of targeted inbreeding just to produce something unique taking place, it makes me realize that this hobby is really screwed up. Is this "dwarf burm" the real deal? Who knows, who cares (at least in my sight). What exact locality information do we have on these specimens? If it's available, I would seriously like to know (not being derogatory in the least). How were they obtained? If this is a true dwarf subspecies (or whatever), then we need to have a diverse enough gene pool to prevent genetic stagnation. Personally, I think this whole thing is one big rip off but like the old saying goes, a snake is only worth as much as what someone is willing to pay for it. It is just too bad that many people will be paying gross amounts of money on a snake for the wrong reason (that is, the snakes are simply an investment and not something that will be given a high quality of life). In fact, people spend so much money for the actual animal, that they end up cutting corners in proper housing and husbandry.

Now, the prospect of a smaller sized burm is indeed appealing but I think that it is FAR too soon to make any assumptions (as Joan made very clear). I can already see it.....dwarf green burms, the dwarf blond-green, albion zig zap zipper burm, and so on. What's wrong with keeping a good old fashioned burm? If you are unable to handle a regular burm, then look at some of the MANY other python species that are truly spectacular and easily managed with one person. And, the various analogies were well put. The issue of owning a regular sized burm and a dwarf burm is one that is a personal decision and hopefully, something positive will happen. If this is a true supspecies of python molurus b. then fantastic....lets see the scientific evidence to show that this is a true "dwarf" species (and dwarf, in the burm world, is relative....these smaller sized burms may just grow slower but may perhaps still reach very large sizes).

But, in today's day and age of "high tech herpetoculture", I am really disenchanted with the direction that we are going. There was a time when seeing a beautiful okeettee corn snake was something special.

Just my piddly .02.

Rob Carmichael, Director/Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreation
www.cityoflakeforest.com

Hi there,

In a way, you are right. Some people are investing in high end animals, and are intending to make money out of them.

I spent good money on my Dwarf Burmese, but I still care for them. They are in lovely vivarium set ups, and if anything, because they are so valuable, I treat them with even more caution.

Many of the larger breeders have been keen enthusiasts all of their life. I cannot name a single person that breeds a large number of animals, that does not actually care about them. Most of these people are so enthused by these animals, that they care for them deeply. Ofcourse, a large breeder will not generally emotionally care for each and every one of his animals, but he will certainly treat them well, its in his best interest.

As for knowing the natural history of these snakes. Well, firstly it is too soon to have re-written Python molurus sp. 'Dwarf Burmese' is just a name. It looks similar to Burmese Pythons, but are much smaller. It is actually quite likely that this will be described as a seperate subspecies, as the differences are quite noticeable. Head scalation and eye location for starters is obviously different.

Now, everyone needs to make a living. Personally, I want to make my living out of doing what I like doing best. That is, keeping and breeding animals. My main passion is Sand Boas, and if anyone wishes to view my extensive collection of Sand Boa species, subspecies and locality variations, please visit my website.

I am willing to spend big money on animals, to make a profit out of breeding them. As far as I am concerned, providing that the animals are treated well, I do not see a problem with this.

Nobody is making promises. I will not guarantee that these Burmese will not grow more than 7ft. However, I can guarantee that these animals are from an isolated population, they are no larger than 7.5ft, they are obviously different, and there will be no more come out of the wild.

I hope this helps a little. It is understandable to be skeptical, but do not disbelieve until you have seen these animals in the flesh.

Lastly, the location of the animals has not been made clear to me yet. I will find out, and as soon as I do, you will be informed. For regular updates, you can go to my web site and join my mailing list.

Regards
Chris Jones

Chris Jones Reptiles

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Regards
Chris Jones

` Very well said !!! Too many people have dollar signs in their head. The poor critters are being overly inbred, and bought and sold like inanimate investments. I too, want to puke, hearing all the crap about "investment quality", "new morph", "het for goldmine".
` What is really unique about Boids is the great range of behavior they can display. They are capable of behaving in ways not allowed for by the common dogma.
` But, what the Hell, put them in shoe box racks, overfeed them to early maturity, and breed more. It's the bucks that count.
`
` Phineas T. Barnum said: " There's a sucker born every minute."

` Or as W.C. Fields said: " You can't cheat an honest man. Never give a sucker an even break, or smarten up a chump."

Bah.
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this forum has 'occasional' lively discussions about pythons as
pets, their behaviours and unique personalities etc...

There are some forums on K.S. that seem more like financial discussions about investment options. Just substitute the
word 'stocks' everytime you see boa (Ooops). I meant snake...

The annoying thing is that the interesting threads get flamed
or don't get responded to, and there's a lovefest following
anything about morphs or dwarfs.

Thanks,
tc

Is more divisions in this hobby. We need to hang together, or else we will certainly all hang seperately.
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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

I like the quote, the political statement is nowhere near as
interesting though.

You're probably right, but personally I'd much rather read about
boa and python behavior and about other hobbyists, rather than
about morphs and dwarfs. To each his own...........tc

Hmmm... you're the first person to comment on it... I figured no one reads the darn things. I've also been tempted to make up a long list of completely fake reptiles. Anyway, I'm just sick of people yelling at each other for ideological reasons... you either take care of the snakes or you don't, no matter if they're pets or just moving piles of money to you.
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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

A little side note; I do find physiological, pyschological, taxonomic etc.. topics very interesting. I study some species in great detail. However, I do also keep and breed the 'morphs' and find it extremely interesting and useful to talk about them.

Not only that, it is quite possible that the 'Dwarf Burmese' is infact a seperate subspecies. Meaning that this topic is no less worthy than starting a topic on 'Python molurus pimbura' for example.

This is a Burmese Python forum, and we have a snake very closely related to the Burmese, which until recently has been unheard of. I would think that this would be the place to post such a topic.
Chris Jones Reptiles

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Regards
Chris Jones

Buy one now!! Coming soon!! You now what I mean...

Chris,
Well said, and I agree. And along those lines, I would still be interested to see close-up photos of the dorsal and lateral aspects of the head scalation of these pythons. You stated that they appeared different than bivittatus and that would be an extremely significant finding. Thanks,

Kelly

I have attached a photo of my male and female. The female is the darker picture. She also has, what looks to be more 'pronounced' eyes. It is hard to see in the pictures. These are the only pictures I have for the time being. These particular adults have not yet acclimatised to handling, which I am keeping to a minimum, so getting pictures of their ventral suface is quite hard.

I will give scalation records and other details soon. The female should slough soon, that will be a perfect time to obtain the records without disturbing her.

Regards
Chris Jones
Chris Jones Reptiles

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Regards
Chris Jones

Chris,
I respect your opinion on some aspects of this topic, but your statement that it is a fact that in the wild, these snakes do not grow much larger than any of the specimens we have, is not supportable. The number of specimens that have been acquired is much too small to be considered a representative sample of the existing population. Also, full adult size is based more on genetics than it is on food intake. This is in part why all but one of the maximum size records for large pythons is held by wild caught snakes and not by one of the thousands of overfed captive individuals. If you overfeed a python it will grow more quickly and reach a larger size in a shorter time than a moderately fed same-sex sibling, but the maximum size, given enough time, will not be greatly different. I have seen this many times over the last 30 years with littermates raised by different individuals. The use of littermate helps to avoid the possibilities of genetic size variation. The exception, of course, would be a snake that was fed so sparingly that it was obviously stunted.
Additionally, although highly unusual and not recommended, I knew a breeder many years ago that produced viable eggs from a "normal" burmese that was right at 8 feet. This just shows the size variation at sexual maturity of this species over it’s huge geographical range. I agree that these may be a smaller geographical variant of bivittatus, but to talk about a size limit on them at this point is a premature.
I would be very interested to know the collection locality of these snakes when you obtain it, and most interested to see if you could post close-up photos of dorsal and lateral views of the head. I am very curious about the scalation differences you spoke of. Thanks,

Kelly

We are talking about 40 animals come from the Wild, plus information on more specimens that have been seen in the wild, but not captured. Plus, we know from Savannah's breedings that babies are incredibly small, only 50-60g in weight.

'Also, full adult size is based more on genetics than it is on food intake'

Yes, absolutely correct for species as a whole, but we do not know about some of the locality variations etc...

Take for example the Hog Island Boa. In the wild these are scrawny, small boas. They never attain a large girth and length that they do with ease in captivity.

The Jampea Retics. Ever got a wild one as fat as we see in captivity? Ever had one in from the wild more than about 8ft? No, yet we see NERD with a 14footer, and compared with a wild snake, it is grossly over weight. Yet, in our eyes, it looks healthy.

All of these 'dwarf' race boas, pythons etc.. have come in from the wild looking 'thin'. Yet, they are totally healthy, and they evolved to be like this.

The Dwarf Burmese have come in from the wild looking fat and healthy. They do not look ill-nourished and their diet is probably a much more sustainable one than a Jampea Retic would get for example.

I find it a safe bet to say that with 'over feeding' that these snakes will get slightly bigger, much quicker. However, I am confident that they will not grow huge. No-one will know how big these babies will grow, only time will tell.

Regards
Chris Jones
Chris Jones Reptiles

Chris,
I don’t doubt that these are smaller than the typical burmese python at their adult size. I was simply stating that to assign an upper size limit on them based on a few dozen specimens is erroneous, especially when the ages are unknown. I agree with you completely that the weight of wild caught snakes is generally much lower than average captive raised snakes of the same length, but the adult lengths of older snakes of the same locality do not show near the discrepancy between wild caught and captive raised as is seen with the weights. Captive born and raised adult pythons typically well outweigh their wild counterparts, but usually don’t greatly exceed them in older adult length. Retics have been seen on Tanahjampea at around 10 feet in length, and were obviously quite old as jampea’s typically grow slowly. This would make NERD’s 13 foot specimen unusually large, especially in weight, but it’s length is probably not out of the range of expected deviation. As you stated, we will not know for certain what lengths these burmese actually obtain until a number of them have been raised to full adults.

Respectfully,

Kelly