Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Over the years I've tried to do my best for my tortoise and
here's my list of pointers I would share for others...

1. Don't fret about the substrate, I've tried them all and
always come back to aspen. Remember it's easy to use fancy
stuff in a smaller enclosure. Eventually practicality and
economics will determine what you can use. When your tortoise
can piss a gallon you will be glad you're using something you
can afford to keep up. There's no "perfect" substrate, but there
are some very bad ones. Experiment with some of the acceptable
ones to see what works for you at the time. Be open to change.

2. Sulcatas will eat different things, and sometimes at different
points in their lives. What they turn their nostrils up at,
may later become their favorite thing. Offer a lot of variety
and plan to spend more on their food than the guy behind you
in line is spending for his 3 dogs. You will never have enough
weeds in your yard and you will covet yards that are overrun with
dandelions. You will know every type of lettuce in the store
and amaze the cashiers. You will know every type of plant
at the garden center also.

3. Keep a close eye on your young sulcata, never trust any
other animals around your tortoise. Especially dogs. Beware
of ants too in an outdoor enclosure, keep them away with
boiling water if they get close. Supervise children carefully
with the tortoise. Very carefully.

4. Offer very high basking temperatures (105-120) and normal room
temperatures. I think too low temps is very common.
I kept mine warm at night(78) also until he was 10 pounds.
After that they are a bit more hardy and can sleep at
cooler temps of 68.

5. Get your tortoise into fresh air and sunlight as much as
possible. 15 min. of natural sunlight is equivalent to 8 hours
under the fakes. Get the best artificial lights you can
get (not the best ones you can afford, the best ones you can
find!).

6. Pick your tortoise up and get him used to it. Get him used
to other people unless you want to be tied down forever, you
must have someone else that can feed and take care of your
tortoise. They need to get used to your routine and your
pet while it is small. Then the 70 pound beast in the yard
won't seem so scary later when they go to check on it. Once
they get bigger you won't be able to pick them up so you'll
have to have a way to get things done anyway.

7. Get to know your vet. Before your animal is ill. Routine
health checks and a good relationship with a vet is important.
Vets hate to see half-dead reptiles - that's why many won't
see any reptiles. Then if you have an emergency your vet will
know you and your animal. Check regularly for worms.

8. Always be thinking of your next enclosure and don't think
anything could possibly be too big. They outgrow everything.

9. Don't fret about a bit of pyramiding, nobody knows exactly
what that's about. Don't over-react and try starving the
animal smooth by with holding food. Let them eat because the
stress of searching for food in a barren enclsoure is more
likely to cause problems. There's been strong suggestion that
stress is the actual cause of pyramiding - stress of captivity.

10. Don't soak them in the winter. A quick rinse maybe once
in a while and a thorough drying. Hydration is going to come
from drinking water and food water %. I'd rather mine be
dirty than sick. There's plenty of time to use the hose and
brushes in the summer. I have found that misting the head
with a spray bottle helps the dry skin look in the winter.
In the summer experiment with different hose attachments and
sprinklers, they love those!
Theodore my sulcata (Teddy)

#11 Don't dress your tortoise as a freak.

#12 Don't hang your tortoise from your hip.

and do you balance your tortoises on your head?

nm

No my torts live in a large yard like they should be not in a
house with a slick floor. And i certainly don't dress mine
especially in DRAG.

... did you bother to even look at her pictures? teddy has a yard (and a damned nice one, at that)!

Hey Chikun,
Are you vagan, i bet you are. How can you have damned nice one (yard) in the middle of the damned winter?

np
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

Am i talking about southern states MISSY? TEDDY BUNDY lives
in New York or some other northern state with snow.

oh, gee, we didn't know you were referring to teddy *bundy*.

*that* particular teddy lived out his last days before sitting on "old sparky" in florida, though, so i suppose we *are* still talking about southern states. heh.

and i can't tell you whether or not i'm a "vagan," as i'm quite sure that i have no idea what you're talking about.

are you trolling? if so, you must be rather bored.

np
-----
Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

np
-----
Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

OOHH Thats right Kalifornia was too chikun(petapetapeta)
to fight in the civil war(DON'T HURT MEEEEEE).Yankee

must be some good stuff, but i hope you're not feeding it to your torts.

np
-----
Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

How about around the neck as a medallion? Good conversation starter.

he hardly needs a prompt for starting a conversation. They usually
start like this, "Is that real?"...

I think that is some pretty good advice overall, but I have one minor quibble.

I posted a rebuttal to part of Niki's post, and only a tiny part of it showed up in my previous post. Aaaaaaarrrrrgggghhhh!!!

Anyway, I'll sum it up again. I agree with most of what Niki said, and it was some good advice, but I don't agree that pyramiding is mysterious and mostly nothing to worry about because there is a lot of evidence to show that it is in fact caused by too rich of diet (too much protein and fat) and too much food in general over time. It is also thought by many researchers to be an indication that other things are going wrong internally, not just a superficial raising of the scutes.

And also, I don't think it is stressful for a tortoise to wander around a barren enclosure looking for food. That is exactly what tortoises are adapted to do. They spend much of their waking hours walking for miles across barren terrain, looking for morsels to eat. I believe tortoises do best when they eat a limited amount of nutritious food with periods of fasting.

Don't you think there's a difference between openly wandering
around and looking for things to nibble on and walking in a
square banging on the glass trying to get out of an enclosure
in order to do just that. That's where I think the stress
of confinement/captivity comes from.
I don't mean that pyramiding is nothing to worry about, it's just
that most hatchlings do (all I've seen here, regardless of how
the owners brag about avoiding it and their methods of trying)
maybe it's not so much the food but the lack of exercise.
I know my sulcata will walk a long distance with me, he loves
it and he's not even looking for food since he knows not to
touch anybody's flowers by their mailboxes. He just wants
to walk.

Yes, I do think there is a difference between walking around in the wild and walking in a confined area. The thing is, I just automatically think of a captive tortoise being in a back yard like mine are or at least in a fairly large enclosure. I forget that people keep them in small tanks and such and it is definitely stressful for them in such conditions. Even so, I think they will bang against the glass trying to get out even if they are very well fed. They want to get out and explore their environment and set up territories. That is mainly why they are so restless, not just hunger.

I guess the truth is that pyramiding may be caused by several different factors, including diet, amount of excercise and lighting. All of those things are greatly affected by captive conditions as opposed to being wild.

You tortoise "KNOWS" not to eat the neighbors flowers? Uh, okay, I'll bite. What did you do, shake you finger at him and say "bad tortoise!" every time he started to go after them until he learned? Took him to a tortoise obedience school maybe? Shock collar? I got it.....hypnosis!

why would I say "bad tortoise" to him? The flowers are "bahh"
just like cigarette butts are. I think he mostly responds to
hand signals but I still talk to him - could be a combination
of hand signals and voice (even vibrations) recognition. He know's
"lie down" and "walk on" , "come here" fairly reliably. You
probably don't realize the amount of attention he's gotten since
he was small and honestly he amazes everybody that sees him,
I bet you would be impressed watching us walk about the entire
subdivision on a late summer afternoon. It's almost embarassing
when people stop and gawk and take pictures, I just like him
to get the exercise (he gets tired, I know his limits, and he
usually gets a treat when we get back besides he goes to bed
early even in the summer). I think if he didn't want to do this
he wouldn't "offer" to go for a walk by heading around the house,
something he has no other reason to do and there is no edible
grass on the side or front (centipede only), and heads down the
driveway. He also doesn't get a food reward during it since I don't
know what people use in their yards and flowers, not that they
would appreciate him devouring their pansies. When we go to my
mom's house he eats whatever he wants to there plus she spoils
him too. I don't think negative reinforcement would be appropriate
for a reptile, actually those things you mentined would be abuse
in my opinion. I think they can understand routines and I think
they can develop trust and increased confidence (sulcatas are bold
and confident anyways) when with a handler they trust.
Once a year we go to a place that's several hours from here and
he acts like he's been there a hundred times that month, not even
batting an eyelash and starts hitting the weeds as soon as he's
put down. Teddy doesn't show any signs of nervousness (even with
dozens of crazy dogs running about on leashes) there and seems
comfortable. I can't believe he doesn't remember this place, even
though it's just annually. He's the same way at the vets and
at my parent's or brothers house. The first time he goes somewhere
he's cautious for a while, I remember the first time I took him
to the feed store, but after he realizes it's OK he's nosey.
The second and following times, he seemed to recognize the place
immediately.

We have met some people on this forum, and maybe someday we'll
meet, but don't be so quick to ridicule Teddy since you haven't
met him. I think he's a wonderful animal. I've seen the same
intelligent eye in redfoots I've seen also. I think anything
responds to positive attention. Look at the difference in
intelligence (environmental results) of babies/children in an
overcrowded orphanage compared to other children that get individual
attention. I'm not saying tortoises are really high on the
intelligence ladder of animals, just that they're not total
idiots that can't learn anything.

You know, if you keep on like that I will be forced to think you do not posess a sense of humor. Not having a sense of humor is nothing short of tragic.

I was JOKING about the "bad tortoise" shtick for crying out loud and I have NEVER said a bad word about Teddie. I think Teddie rocks. Sheesh!

Spelled Teddy's name wrong.

Don't tell him, he may come after me with some of his homeboys. Not that it would be really hard to get away from him. Hmmmm, he could catch me sleeping though....

That's another joke, Niki, just to let you know. I don't really think he will come after me.

>pyramiding is mysterious and mostly nothing to worry about because there is a lot of evidence to show that it is in fact caused by too rich of diet (too much protein and fat) and too much food in general over time. It is also thought by many researchers to be an indication that other things are going wrong internally, not just a superficial raising of the scutes.

Please provide references for your evidence! What researchers? Thanks.
Here's one that provides a specific cause of pyramiding:
J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr 2003 Feb; 87(1-2): 66-74.

Influence of environmental humidity and dietary protein on pyramidal growth of carapaces in African spurred tortoises (Geochelone sulcata).
Wiesner CS, Iben C., Institute of Nutrition, University of Veterinary Medicine, Vienna, Austria.

The carapaces of captive-raised tortoises (terrestrial chelonians of the zoological family Testudinidae, often develop pyramidal-shaped osseous growth centrally within the horny plates. With very few exceptions (e.g. Geochelone elegans, Psammobates sp.), this conical growth pattern is considered to be pathologic. This very common defect is believed to be an important indicator of the quality of captive tortoise management. This study was designed to examine the effect of dietary protein level and environmental humidity on the degree of pyramidal growth in the carapaces. Fifty recently hatched African spurred tortoises (G. sulcata) were raised for 5 months under artificial conditions of varying environmental humidity and dietary protein content (14% vs. 19% vs. 30% crude protein in dry matter). Humps of the carapaces that developed and blood values of calcium, phosphorus and haematocrit were measured and compared among groups. Dry environmental conditions (24.3-57.8% and 30.6-74.8% relative humidity) produced taller humps than humid conditions (45-99% relative humidity). Hump formation differed significantly (p < or = 0.001) between these three groups kept under different humidity conditions. Variable dietary protein had a minor, positive impact on this pathological formation of humps (pyramidal growth syndrome, PGS). Analysis of blood (calcium, phosphorus and haematocrit) offered no further explanation as to the development of the humps.

There are literally hundreds of referrences to pyramiding in relation to diet on the internet and I am not going to post them here. Anyone can look them up with the keywords "pyramiding," "tortoise," and "diet." Admittedly, you see a lot of "it is said that.." and "it is generally believed..." and things like that when it comes to diet and pyramiding, but it seems to me there must be a reason for this and I'm sure there have been studies done as well.

As far as the study you cited, it is not exactly what I would call irrefutable proof. First off, the size of the study is small with only 50 animals. That means there were only 17 in two groups and 16 in the third. That doesn't mean it was too small to have any value, but it is rather paltry and needs to be backed up with a larger study. Secondly, who funded the test? Is it someone who has a vested interest in "proving" that something other than diet is responsible for pyramding? Like a dry tortoise food company, perhaps? I'm not saying it was, I'm saying that it is important to know. The tobacco companies did many studies in the 60s and 70s that "proved" that cigarettes weren't bad for you at all! They said it must be something else causing all those cases of lung cancer. And these were actual legitimate scientists who did the testing. It is extremely common for "studies" to magically come out exactly the way the "researchers" wanted them to from the beginning.

Also, they never say exactly HOW humidity causes the pyramiding. Maybe in the full report they do, I don't know, but from just reading what you posted, they make no mention of a logical reason how it could happen. At least the diet theory has a specific reason behind it. Diet is without question a factor in tortoise growth overall. It has been observed for decades that captive tortoises fed more food than their wild kin grow much faster and mature much more quickly, with more protein being something that really accelerates growth. That has been proven. And since shell growth and general growth are connected, it seems to make sense that diet is the main cause of pyramiding.

Another thing...if it is caused by too low of a humidity, why would a sulcata or any other tortoise be MORE inclined to suffer from pyramiding when it is raised in an environment that is more humid than it's natural environement would be, like in the US or Europe? Are they trying to tell us that New York or Ohio or even where I live in coastal Southern California is less humid than Africa or the deserts in Greece or Turkey? Add to that the fact that most people give them far more water than they would ever find in the wild and soak them all the time.

Maybe so, but I'm not convinced.

>...literally hundreds of referrences to pyramiding in relation to diet on the internet and I am not going to post them here.

Well, **one** would be nice!

>Admittedly, you see a lot of "it is said that.." and "it is generally believed..."

That phraseology is lazy writing; any such statement must include a reference, which makes "it is believed" unnecessary.

>...I'm sure there have been studies done as well.

Please cite one!

>As far as the study you cited, it is not exactly what I would call irrefutable proof.

No claim that it is "proof" but it's more than you've offered. And, this study appears in a peer-reviewed journal.

>...Secondly, who funded the test? Is it someone who has a vested interest in "proving" that something other than diet is responsible for pyramding?

You are saying that the Institute of Nutrition, University of Veterinary Medicine, Vienna, Austria, is unreliable, is funded "under the table" by pet-food companies?

>Like a dry tortoise food company, perhaps? I'm not saying it was, I'm saying that it is important to know.

>...And these were actual legitimate scientists who did the testing.

Who are where now? As with any endeavor, bad apples occur.

>Also, they never say exactly HOW humidity causes the pyramiding. Maybe in the full report they do, I don't know, but from just reading what you posted...

That's called an "abstract," a summary of the data placed at the beginning of scientific articles.

>...they make no mention of a logical reason how it could happen.

The data are reported, data are data; no one *needs* to speculate about the "how" even if that's unsatisfying to you.

>...That has been proven.

Great! Your reference for that?

>And since shell growth and general growth are connected, it seems to make sense that diet is the main cause of pyramiding.

Speculation until referenced.

>...if it is caused by too low of a humidity, why would a sulcata or any other tortoise be MORE inclined to suffer from pyramiding when it is raised in an environment that is more humid than it's natural environement would be...

Use of microclimate in nature; provision of **varied** microclimates in captivity.

>Maybe so, but I'm not convinced.

Nor am I from your unsubstantiated opinion! ?references?

Although this is not from a refereed journal, I believe it to be valuable and reliable information.

http://www.sulcstatn.addr.com/pyramid.html

Thank YOU! Very interesting read, indeed! Especially since several specie are discussed, however briefly.
Anecdotal observations are key in herpetoculture and may well direct future experiments in a more scientific mode; also, may strike a cord to hobbyists to change their own environments for the better...
The problem with anecdotal observations is simply one of proper "controls;" I would not wish to provide appropriate controls for any particular set of environmental or diet conditions.
Given that we **attempt** to recreate, as best we can, the natural environment of our charges, reports from the native state, if possible, should be our guide. Thus, should a field herpetologist record humidity levels and time spent in tortoises' natural hides/burrows, that would assist in our own efforts beyond knowing the meteorological "average" data from a native location.

Well, it seems the only thing that can be said about pyramding with any degree of certainty is that it's cause is extremely controversial. There are many theories but nothing that seems to be absolutely proven, and that includes humidity as a cause.

Well, it seems the only thing that can be said about pyramding with any degree of certainty is that it's cause is extremely controversial. There are many theories but nothing that seems to be absolutely proven, and that includes humidity as a cause.

For some reason this SOB won't let me post the rest of my message.

I had a problem too; thought I'd *successfully* posted message above an hour ago...
Maybe your list of references is too long for one post?

I guess I will have to re-type my message from scratch in two parts or something because this forum will not allow me to copy and re-send the message that failed to post the first time. I don't know what the deal is. Maybe it WAS all those references I had. Darn it. I guess I'll have to wing it with my own logic and experience again.

I'll re-do it later this evening when I have some time.

(And yes, I'm pretending someone gives a rat's ass.)

No rush, Head, but I appreciate your efforts!
More to read, more to learn!

FWIW, Mayday, I didn't put that "smiley" in my post to you; I just used proper punctuation and up popped the smiley!

On the whole, I do believe we (Head, Mayday, & I) are all on the same page, or at least in the same book. It's just that observation can be misleading, so can controlled studies but at least methods are spelled out.

You've expressed a keen interest in "references" Pako, but the thing is, you a can cite thousands of references, and unless one of those references includes 3 or 4 double-blind studies involving hundreds of animals and all those studies came to the exact same conclusions, then the references are just other people's opinions based on their experience. It seems very odd, but it really does appear that pyramiding has a dearth of studies as to it's cause. This study with humidity is too small to really be taken very seriously, in my opinion. It is food for thought, and it is intriquing, but that is about it. It would have to be backed up by another, larger study before it took on real meaning.

As far as the "how" humidity causes pyramiding, I believe that answering the how solidifies the data from any study. If you can show how, you can eliminate other possibilities, such as humiditity perhaps somehow countering the effects of too much protein or other dietary factors. If that were true, then it would put the answer right back with diet even though it appeared to be humidity.

And we still don't know who funded the test. Even reputable companies have been known to take a few "research dollars" to come up with a foregone conclusion. I don't know enough about the people who did the study to rule that out, I don't care what they call themselves. Mazur...er, I mean money talks.

To me the bottom line is this: Most of the people who have kept torotoises for a long time believe that pyramiding is caused by several factors, with diet being the main one. They base this on personal experience and observation. Is that proof? No. Only anecdotal? Yes. But mountains of anecdotal evidence from experienced keepers beats ONE small, unreproduced study any day.

A few comments, then I'm calling this "quits!"

>you a can cite thousands of references...

And, you have none?

>...includes 3 or 4 double-blind studies

Double-blind studies involve humans so that the data are not biased by the subject knowing what is given or done!
In animal studies, the RESULTS are "blinded" during analysis.

>...involving hundreds of animals

Those numbers are NOT necessary for statistical significance and rarely would an Animal Studies Committee (regulatory body of animal use in universities and industry that approves all animal use) allow justification for the numbers you suggest.

>It seems very odd, but it really does appear that pyramiding has a dearth of studies as to it's cause.

Here's another one but I don't read German:
Weser, 1988, Zur Hockerbildung bei Schildkroten. Sauria 10:23-25

>This study with humidity is too small to really be taken very seriously, in my opinion.

Yep, your opinion.

>It is food for thought...

But, not too rich, must avoid pyramiding.

>I don't know enough about the people who did the study to rule that out...

I think that is a stretch but I haven't seen any UFOs or black helicopters recently either.

>But mountains of anecdotal evidence from experienced keepers beats ONE small, unreproduced study any day.

Bottom line, "literally hundreds of referrences," was exaggerated? Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on the scientific front of herpetology.

Some of us can go on common sense and experience.
While I haven't published anything or done any really scientific research on tortoise diets, I have kept them for over 30 years. In addition, many of my 'tortoise friends' have been keeping them for well over that length of time and in one case, over 60 years. We have compared notes as it were, over the years and most of us agree on most aspects of tortoise husbandry. I wouldn't pretend to know everything about what it takes to raise a healthy tortoise but then again I won't jump on a single study (like the sulcata and humidity one mentioned above) and say "Aha! THE definitive answer!"
Having said that I have to agree with much of what Head has stated--that a diet far more abundant and richer in protein, minerals and starches than most tortoise species EVER get in nature is bound to have some drawbacks. Like pyramiding.
And no, I don't have a formal study to back this, but I have seen with my own eyes numerous tortoises raised outdoors here in south Florida that were horribly pyramided from being fed things like canned dog food and dry dog food. These animals were raised under indentical conditions to what others down here keep them except for diet and maybe to a lesser degree sunlight. But it has become common knowledge among many long time keepers ( again sorry, I know this is not SCIENTIFIC) that such a diet along with insufficient natural sunlight will result in a pyramided tortoise.
I find it very difficult from a common sense aspect to accept humidity as the sole factor--or even major factor--that results in unnatural shell growth in tortoises. Common sense and experience tells me that pushing growth on hatchling and young tortoises by 1) feeding them constantly and 2) feeding them an overly rich diet is what will result in carapace deformities.

>I won't jump on a single study (like the sulcata and humidity one mentioned above) and say "Aha! THE definitive answer!"

Head said, "literally hundreds of referrences," so I asked for some references and I offered one. I did not say, "Aha!," at any point.
Your tortoises are most fortunate in that YOUR "common sense" is rare. "Common sense" is a most UN-common commodity in at least 80% of the human population (no science here either, just observation). Review questions on this and other forums for explicit examples of the lack of "common sense!"
Too bad you feel that controlled studies are not worthwhile ("Some of us can go on common sense and experience"; anecdotal observations are often valuable but scientific (controlled) studies offer validity to such observations.
Although chewing on willow bark may provide some analgesia (anecdotal folk wisdom), I prefer buying aspirin (scientific knowledge). If you have a good herp/tortoise vet, do you expect her/him to read current journals? Is that not part of the service, that your vet be up-to-date?

I was refering to the discussion regarding diet/pyramiding.....
of course I avidly read as much as possible. And of course I would expect my vet to be up to date as well.
But on the other hand it is laughable to many long term keepers (myself included)when we here of or read all of the hand wringing about pyramiding. For many of us, this was something figured out decades ago and somehow with our primative minds, we managed to raise hatchlings (that somehow we kept getting literally hundreds of) with flawless shells.
Provide a balanced diet with plenty of sunshine, excercise and the occasional calcium suppliment and you get beautiful animals.
Try and push them by feeding overly rich, too high in protein/fat foods or a diet deficient in minerals. Add to that a minimun of sun exposure (or the equivalent) and you will get tortoises with unnatural pyramided shells.
It really isn't that mysterious at all.
As for documented studies in this regard? I doubt there are any.
But ask any keeper who has worked with tortoises for more than just a few years or who has produced a lot of hatchlings and I bet they will agree.

>As for documented studies in this regard? I doubt there are any.

If true, then that's a shame! Published reports might filter through to those vets that see a shut-eye and inject vitamin A or administer Ivermectin for roundworms...
As I said above, I believe we are on the same page...or at least in the same book, just coming at the info from different directions. I still **like** published articles though!

It would give you some insight as to where some of these ideas come from.
I really don't think that a high protein diet is detrimental if it is part of a balanced diet and the environmental conditions support the metabolism of that protein.
Much of the results I've seen in my collection and many of my friends seems to support this but this is really a pointless discussion because we really haven't established what is 'high protein'.
Now the fat is definately a no-no for other reasons but I really have to question if it 'causes' pyramiding.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Well said, Mayday.

One thing that I would question about the humidty-as-cause and that Pako didn't really answer is the fact that Florida, and in fact just about all of the US, is much more humid than Africa or the Greek deserts or the Middle East. So why would a sulcata (or any other tortoise) in a well-watered grassy backyard in hot and steamy Mississippi or Florida have more pyramiding than a sulcata (or any other tortoise) wandering around the sandscape of incredibly arid Africa (or any other super-arid place?)

I know Pako is knowledgable and he will bring up the burrows sulcatas dig. But is it really more humid in their burrows than it is in a very humid state like Florida or many other parts of this country? How about Hermann's or Greeks, both of which are subject to pyramiding in captivity and live in very arid environments in the wild. They do not dig burrows at all and simply wedge into plants to sleep or dig down a few inches into the ground where it is still plenty dry?

arrrgh, thought I was finished with this but...

Simple: availability of microclimates, then the animal chooses what conditions he/she wants.
In Africa, humidity can be found in the burrows or under plant growth; in Florida, there's no escaping it!

In Fla. some keepers of species that require a dry climate do the opposite of what you originally suggested. That is they provide a dry microclimate and this seems to work great with species like sulcatas and Leopards.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care