Reptile & Amphibian Forums

these are relly cool. this is mine (i copped it) it will eat you up though.lol
thet were very nice looking. i have more pics if interested

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IF YOU HAVE IT SHOW IT. IF YOU OWN IT FLAUNT IT!!

more pics!!!
Lookin' good.
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Greg Holland
G&M HERPS
www.imageevent.com/gmherps
gmherps@sbcglobal.net

... that's a saying in the U.S.

Some U.S. sayings are similar to those in Europe, some are unknown. This one is unknown maybe because of the different mentality. We are speaking our minds without a polite introduction.

Enough of the prologue. In my opinion if someone is posting photos here in order to learn the opinion of the visitors he also has to bear negative replies.

Let us forget for an instant that I am opposed to such a breeding policy (to say the least).

Let us just look at the animal for a few moments and compare it with a beautiful peruvian redtail and with a beautiful orange Hog Island boa.

What is our deduction now? Just be honest! This crossbreed is not as nice as a Hog Island Boa and not as nice as a Peruvian boa. This boa is simply plain. In case it's a female just name her plain Jane.

Don't think I do belittle this boa because it is a crossbreed. Everyone who has eyes to see can recognize the truth within a second.

In order to prove to you that this is my honest opinion I admit that the Hog/Hypo crosses look beautiful (although I condemn their existence).

But this Peruvian/Hog Cross.... This "effort" was in vain. A pathetic attempt to create interest in the freaky crossbreed market.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

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I offer here, my opinion and a potential solution. Bear with me and see if you can read this whole thing.

Let’s say producing and collecting counterfeit baseball cards was considered casually cool (analogous to producing crosses/intergrades). Don’t you think it would be somewhat reasonable, and in fact logical, if those people who LOVE REAL baseball cards became somewhat concerned and wanted the producers of these counterfeits to somehow mark their cards such that the reasonable, prudent and normal person could tell the difference to feel certainty in what they are buying? This is the analogy I use. I mean, how would you feel if you bought a fake Rolex for the price of a real one and found out after the fact?

With that in mind, here is my $0.02 on the whole crossing/mutt/intergading deal.

IMHO, the production of these animals in itself, is not the utmost of concerns for a mindset such as my own, which might be very different from that of many others. My concern is in the eventual misrepresentation of them.

I think that there is enough captive breeding going on that even if the are Columbian x Argentines, there are still going to be TONS of pure argentines produced for many years to come. The proof is in their price. That price is relatively low because of their high supply, even in spite of them being such beautiful boas.

My major concern is the intentional and/or unintentional misrepresentation of a mixed/intergrade animal. It is easy for someone to be 100% forthright and honest, as I would like to think most of us are. However, it is equally as easy in some instances for one to be dishonest. I am sure we all agree that one should ALWAYS represent/sell animals as crosses if they are, or as pure locality animals if that is indeed what they are, etc.

I also believe there might not be as many such identity problems when one creates some types of crosses that are easily recognizable and difficult to misrepresent. For instance, I think that some of the Surinam x Columbian albinos are sweet looking and are quite strikingly different than regular albinos. However, even when those corresponding hets are produced, they could be EVENTUALLY misrepresented down the line. Furthermore, after successive selective breeding, traits could be manipulated to a point where definite recognition as a cross/intergrade might be difficult. This is also of concern. While the physical differences might not be outwardly or immediately discernable (as they are with these Peruvian x Hoggs), I still think everyone has the right to expect honesty in what they are getting as far as purity of bloodline, locality, etc, WHETHER OR NOT THEY CAN TELL AT FIRST GLANCE.

As a general rule, I feel the REAL trouble rolls in when a mixed/intergrade animal is sold down the line. We all know that any given snake, especially animals of lesser value as intergrades often are, could switch many hands in its lifetime. If the person eventually selling the mixed animal decides to have “whatever the interested party wants”, the animal is then misrepresented and someone is deceived; EVEN IF THE ORIGINAL BREEDER/PRODUCER of that animal is totally honest and did not misrepresent it initially. While it might be more strikingly obvious when one encounters a cross between an Argentine and a Columbian, that same obviousness will likely NOT be present each time one encounters a cross between some other locality animals, let’s say a Suriname and a Peruvian locality for example. I have seen pictures posted of intergrade boas that looked like killer Surinams to me. While someone far more experienced than I may have been able to make the call in person as to the “mix-up” if the external differences were bit shy of 100% discernable, one is rarely going to have the opportunity to make that call, in person or not.

I think that in a case such as this, it only takes ONE greedy, innocently uninformed, or thoughtless person, JUST ONE, who sells an animal under false pretense or mistake as a pure Surinam let’s say, and then some other person then pollutes their project by breeding that animal in unsuspectingly. Assuming that only a few of these produced animals are eventually bred, do the numbers and one can see that within a decade, there could easily be a whole host of impure animals that people will be lead to think are pure when indeed they are not.

One could argue that the person (the buyer) should then better confirm the lineage, then they wouldn’t be buying crossed animals or at least would be less likely to do so, but I will argue that one should not have to scrutinize simple info and questions of integrity at the microscopic level. And again, one can say that it isn’t a big deal if you can’t visually scrutinize the impurity. I would argue again that a buyer/consumer should always be told what they are getting or clearly and honestly informed of any uncertainties in the animal’s blood and past.

This is where my true concern lies. The end result is that people like myself, who would not think of crossing ANY of their locality animals, are almost paranoid about buying from anyone whose reputation does not strongly precede them. This in turn, also makes it very hard for honest people to get started.

I will not say that one is playing God by crossing their animals, nor do I wish to make any other real strong stands and bash other’s projects but I do feel that people whom produce animals that have the potential to be misrepresented have a moral obligation to somehow, someway, take responsible and practical measures to make sure that their mixed/intergraded animals are NOT misrepresented. I think they should be chipped or marked in some other way. In this way, one will have the ability to check if they were getting an impure animal.

In this way, intergaders/mixers/mutt producers, whatever you would like to call them, can keep on having their picnic, producing the boas they love. Simultaneously, the locality crusaders can also keep doing what they are doing while being more reasonably confident in their abilities to buy pure animals from others without worries of inadvertently buying intergrades or crosses.

I think you make some very valid points. I personally believe microchipped animals should be the standard.
I believe that when crosses are bred I think the intent is to create something different than the initial animals so there should be typically be some visual clues....especially to those looking for "true" localities. I agree it comes down to honesty and as you pointed out in your two examples, this is not a new concept....even in reptiles this is not a new situation...look at the diamond/carpet crosses and the 80% diamonds in particular...there is no doubt there are crosses being labeled as true diamonds in my opinion. I believe if you are looking for true animals however there is no shortage of honest dealers and true bloodlines....if your looking to cut corners financially you might end up like the saying goes..getting what you paid for....and this is true in all the scenarios regarding misrepresented items...if it seems to good to be true, than it probably isn't also applies. In addition, regardless of how anyone feels about it these are the inevetabilities of a financially driven market...of any kind...it's going to happen....expect it. The answer in my opinion is therefore; shop around. Those that pride themselves on true localities know enough to where find their animals.
My issue is how conservation get's thrown in there....still waiting to hear on that one...how the captive animals of private keepers are going to save the species or in any way preserve the "integrity" or somehow represent wild populations.
Good post.
-Dino

I know that I didn't mention conservation of wild animals and I didn't see anyone else mention wild animals when it came to this whole cross-breeding thing. I understand that hoggs are actually extirpated from the wild so their conservation in the wild would be pretty tough, am I right? This is why it is so important that breeders are responsibe, its the ONLY way the hogg isle boas will continue to exist. We are 100 % responsible for them now (humans I mean). Matthew pretty much summed up my thoughts with his intelligent and very well worded post, accurate representation of snakes now and even more importantly in the future is the problem.

By the way, these snakes are actually the same species (Boa constrictor). The Hypo/Hogg crosses are even the same sub-species (B. c. imperator) so some might ask why is that even considered cross-breeding? Well its actually not but these geographically distinct boas should be preserved for ethical reasons because they are geographically distinct. Ethics is key when it comes to conservation and preservation, I know I have them.

PS Please don't mention my grammer and spelling, I know it sucks

Very well said, you put it in a simple arrangement that everyone should understand.Personal responsibility in what one is doing will make the difference in the long run. I wish none of it would happen in collections, but as long as they are honest, there is nothing more that can be asked of cross breeders............John Johnson

>>... that's a saying in the U.S.
>>
>>Some U.S. sayings are similar to those in Europe, some are unknown. This one is unknown maybe because of the different mentality. We are speaking our minds without a polite introduction.
>>
>>Enough of the prologue. In my opinion if someone is posting photos here in order to learn the opinion of the visitors he also has to bear negative replies.
>>
>>Let us forget for an instant that I am opposed to such a breeding policy (to say the least).
>>
>>Let us just look at the animal for a few moments and compare it with a beautiful peruvian redtail and with a beautiful orange Hog Island boa.
>>
>>What is our deduction now? Just be honest! This crossbreed is not as nice as a Hog Island Boa and not as nice as a Peruvian boa. This boa is simply plain. In case it's a female just name her plain Jane.
>>
>>Don't think I do belittle this boa because it is a crossbreed. Everyone who has eyes to see can recognize the truth within a second.
>>
>>In order to prove to you that this is my honest opinion I admit that the Hog/Hypo crosses look beautiful (although I condemn their existence).
>>
>>But this Peruvian/Hog Cross.... This "effort" was in vain. A pathetic attempt to create interest in the freaky crossbreed market.
>>Boa constrictor
>>
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>>Beware of Commies and Mutts!
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

NP

NP

It doesn't look as nice as either of its parents (if they are typical of their locality).

Thanks you for contributing to the demise of the hogg isle boa, I'm sure future generations will appreciate that.

I would look into breeding that with a hypo, could possibly make for some really nice hypos, as we all have seen hypo hoggs are awesome looking, and the added color of the tail from the bcc could increase the intensity of the color even more..

just my opinion...Later
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

if you cross this boa with squirrel the red tail would be bushy on top of that.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

We could also cross it with a certain German forum member we all know, and they will not only have nice looking tails, but be squash proof, we can call them the Hermanroach redtails..lol

Later
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

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I see we're on the same page Randy. Dave

I sure would like to hear your view at length on why this is affecting the hogg island boas future, or any wild boas existance for that matter....I do not stand firmly on either side of the fence on this issue, but I sure would have liked to hear some responses to the post I made regarding conservation....all those who have these strong opinions on the matter completely dodged the matters and questions I posed in my previous post leaving me to the opinion that they don't have the knowledge or gusto on the matter that they portray at face value...it must be one of those "just because" type deals. The views in favor of cross breeding seem to be clear cut...whether wrong or right. I think the opposition is weak, and those who stand so strongly need voice more than their opinions. Can you tackle my previous posted questions and address the issues therein? Someone give me a breakdown of my post as all I am getting from these negative responses to crosses are shallow put downs with little or no substance to back it up. Or don't respond and I guess somewhere in your minds you can keep believing your swaying the opinions of "newcomers" to your side by merely opossing for the sake of it....because it is "wrong" or like I mentioned previously "just becuase". Let's hear it folks....anyone care to give it a shot...in the name of conservation?? Thanks much....fire away.
-Dino

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Beautiful snake in your post! North Brazilian??
A bit off topic I know, but I'm curious.
Thanks, Bill

...actually I acquired him a few years back from Ben Siegal at the Tampa show, and yes he said it was Brazillian. However, because I did not personally catch this animal from the wild, nor do I know his parental lineage (ie; their origins) or the importers or breeders personally....I cannot say with any certainty from whether he is or isn't. He may have been caught in a different region and shipped through Brazil or maybe the seller thought I would be more likely to buy a Brazillian (though Ben is usually a pretty straight shooter) but maybe the seller (Ben) was misled by those whome he acquired it or maybe they told him the truth but were misled by their sellers...a few too many variables to say with great certainty from where he derrives exactly...
what I do know is that he is a work of art unto himself and that I truly appreciate his beauty...so much so obviously that I wanted to be able to see, hold and admire him as often as I want...and get him to produce viable offspring for me so I could enjoy them too....and have.
What I will tell you and stand behind is that he is a "true redtail"....and if you had him and wanted to call him a north Brazillian....that's totally your call....I would buy him from you though still as a "true redtail" (in my mind).
I know this is a bit more than you bargained for bill...but I think you know where I'm going with this...
-Dino

I hear ya! I'm a purist to when it comes to locale snakes too. I breed a lot of alterna, and only breed locale animals with verifiable origins, so I appreciate you honesty!
When I saw the pic of your boa, it just screamed Brazilian!
Brazilian or not, it is a gorgeous animal!
Best of luck to you in your efforts in reproducing with him, that is a knockout tail!
Cheers, Bill

I am personally opposed to cross breeding and it's not to conserve the wild species because in the case of the Hoggs, it's to late. What crossing them now does is degrades the integrity of the remaining gene pool that represents the wild type. Instead of asking the question can I breed a hogg to a colombian; ask the question should I! No longer do you have the 6' adult hogg, you have an 8' mutt, before crossing them do you know how it will affect the offspring? I hope I don't end up taking care of those less attractive ones at the reptile rescue. I don't have that much of a problen when their breeding colombians to central american boas but when they are breeding them to species that they are naturally isolated from one another, I think its going to far. The other concern I have is that once this kind of breeding is justified, where does it stop? What's next crossing balls to burms? It should stop now before the hobby gets over ran with mutts.