Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Nobody will honestly pursue the intention to return captive bred boas to the wild.

This would make little sense because their habitat is on the brink of demise anyway and man is killing snakes wherever they cross his/her way.

I am writing this because as a humble webmaster of a boa constrictor page with more than 600 clicks daily I get a lot of informations from all over the world including from people who live in the distribution areas of our favourite snake.

It should be our objective to preserve the boas in captivity as they occur in the wild in order to show boa enthusiats in future generation the original and not only a photo.

I am sure that boa lovers in - say - 100 years would be glad to see a Hog Island boa in the flesh (even when it exists only in a vivarium) and not only in a yellow-turned old color photo.

Is this really so hard to understand? A breeding policy that uses pure locality boa c. to produce morphs and crosses is egoism in its purest form.

It would be the same to say: I don't care about pollution of the air and the environment because when it's getting real nasty I am long dead and gone.

SO FAR we have enough argentines and hog islands and so on. But how long yet if certain breeder keep up their "good jobs"?
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Herman, I agree. I have been ripped apart many times on this forum for the same discussion. You might as well just stop saying anything at all to the people who are doing all this crap and just concentrate on educateing the new and future herpers coming into the hobby.Personally, I dont feel like there is any hope for the world in general outside of a few good ones here and there. I am a ( glass half empty ) kinda guy myself.No, not really. I just know that the majority always rules and we are a EGOTISTIC society that likes our own ideas of what eye candy is. A visual based society that may not ever change. All we can do is keep our own front yards clean and not worry about the others. It is not that I am saying;" avoid the issues. " Just that the issues are not being resolved on most of the subjects debated, so in essencs; " Maybe we should just mind our own business!! ".........John Johnson

Let me start off by saying that I agree with you in principle, I too am an advocate of locality paired breedings. I don't condone the pairing of a Hogg Isle boa with a Peruvian, Columbian, etc.
What I would like to discuss and hear feedback on though, is the terminology we use in describing Bcc in its various forms.
What I'm getting at is the pattern and coloration traits we associate with a Suriname boa that defines it as a Suriname animal in our eyes, and the coloration and pattern in a Guyana boa that defines it as a Guyana, for instance.
Just because the wc animals are being shipped out of Suriname, doesnt' mean that at least some of the animals weren't collected in Guyana. So when the shipment hits the states from Suriname, are all the animals considered Suriname redtails even though some were collected in Guyana? Just to the east of Suriname is French Guiana. Almost undoubtedly, some of the redtails shipped out of Suriname probably originated in French Guiana, but I've never heard of anyone working with French Guiana redtails?
I realize there are certain traits in color and pattern that we associtae with a Suriname redtail, and other traits we associte with Guyana redtails, but I've seen Guyana boas that possess the traits of a Suriname animal and vice versa, as I'm sure we all have. So unless you collected the animal yourself, how can you really be sure of where it's from? The animals have no interest in the border lines drawn on a map, and there doesn't seem to be any impassable natural bounderies that separate Suriname, Guyana, etc. If Suriname closed and Guyana was open, would the field collectors stand on the border and nudge the Suriname redtails over the border into Guyana so they could be exported? I'm sure it goes on all the time, so how can you be sure you have "pure" Suriname or Guyana redtails?
I don't kow, maybe I'm a little naive here, but I would be very interested in hearing some opinions on this. Sorry if this went on a bit, I'm usually not this long winded!
Cheers, Bill

Since there is no natural bar between this two countries there is no difference in my opinion. It is just a random political border. In certain regions of Surinam the boas look this way, in other regions they look a little different. That's all of it.

I know that Dennis Sargent agrees with me and my opinion has been confirmed by a friend of mine from the Netherlands who is travelling two times a year to Suriname and Guyanana in order to catch boas.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

My point exactly! So why would someone hesitate, or even refuse to breed what they believe to be a Suri to a Guyana, or vice versa? Chances are the two snakes, or their descendants, were collected within a close proximity of each other and truly are the same snake...Bcc.
We're not comparing apples to oranges here, but apples to apples. Polymorphic species always make for great debate! lol
Cheers, Bill

i most certainly agree with you as well herman, i would believe the same true of french guinana, eastern venezuelan BCC and north brazilian BCC. its my opinion, that all 'phenotypes' or commonly recognized patterns occur in populations of all the guyana highland/guyana shield/ northern BCC localities.
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recycle your pets

. Hermann is right. If there are no Hog Island Boas in the wild then all of the Hogg Island Boas in existence are in captivity. If they all get bred to other Boa Constrictors there will soon be no Hog Island Boas anywhere. The Hog Island crosses that are being honestly represented by breeders today will eventually end up in the hands of dishonest or unknowing people who will incorrectly identify them. When all the Hog Island Boas are gone that will be a very sorry day. When all the Boas in the hobby are unidentifiable that will be another very sorry day.
Jeff

>>Nobody will honestly pursue the intention to return captive bred boas to the wild.
>>
>>This would make little sense because their habitat is on the brink of demise anyway and man is killing snakes wherever they cross his/her way.
>>
>>I am writing this because as a humble webmaster of a boa constrictor page with more than 600 clicks daily I get a lot of informations from all over the world including from people who live in the distribution areas of our favourite snake.
>>
>>It should be our objective to preserve the boas in captivity as they occur in the wild in order to show boa enthusiats in future generation the original and not only a photo.
>>
>>I am sure that boa lovers in - say - 100 years would be glad to see a Hog Island boa in the flesh (even when it exists only in a vivarium) and not only in a yellow-turned old color photo.
>>
>>Is this really so hard to understand? A breeding policy that uses pure locality boa c. to produce morphs and crosses is egoism in its purest form.
>>
>>It would be the same to say: I don't care about pollution of the air and the environment because when it's getting real nasty I am long dead and gone.
>>
>>SO FAR we have enough argentines and hog islands and so on. But how long yet if certain breeder keep up their "good jobs"?
>>Boa constrictor
>>
>>-----
>>Beware of Commies and Mutts!

....and thanks for your time in responding. I can agree on the need for responsible breeding of any threatened animal...I was getting the impression that those so opposed to crosses thought they were holding the key to the restoration of the hogg island's demise, and in a sense I see where that is true. Unfortunately because natural selection is removed by captive breeding and their natural behaviors suppressed, they will never be "true" representations of what once was. I am VERY concerned with the destruction of habitat and I don't see any changes happening anytime soon. There used to be a very nice & informative page on N.E.R.D.'s site with some startling facts on man's destruction of the earth. I give credit to those that strive to keep bloodlines as true as possible, and I do this in my collections for the most part. I do not own any crosses less they be guyanans and surinames or "market morphs" but I am one who doubt's the origins of these iimported animals and never "assume" that I am getting the animal from it's true locale...even when they try to give it a desription narrowing it down to the log. I breed animals with similiar traits with my redtails and other "non-morph" boas and do my best to enhance the look they already possess. I do think there is a double standard when it comes to folks that preach about crosses though and keep hypo's or salmon boas....these boas originate from nics crossed with columbians, please. Additionally I think that there should be enough room for those that want to cross breed and experiment with the genetic makeup of boas...I find it interesting and I think the line between "the latest morph" on the market and those breeding to keep true bloodline is pretty clear....at this time...and should it become so smeared in the future to where you can't tell the difference between the two....well we're only preserving the visual traits of these animals anyways right? I think mattpope's post about cover's the rest of the issue from there. Enough for now.
-Dino