Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It seems like keeping a uro on the dirt setup is better for breeders than it is for people that just keep reptiles as pets (like myself). The reason I say this is because I have very tame lizards that enjoy coming out to run around and crawl all over their owner (me)...sometimes finding a nice spot to rest on their owner's head, which is less than fun for the scalp. What can I say though, they just can't resist the mop top. With the dirt setup, if the uro is busy digging or hiding during the only time open on my schedule for reptile play time (sometimes I have a busy schedule), he completely misses that day, and if this happens too many times in a row, he would probably start to become less tame. Plus, it sort of takes the fun out of reptile husbandry for the keeper. For breeders, I can see this as an awesome way to keep your uros, and if I was breeding them I would definately use it.

For now I'm going to stick with the normal hides and substrates. Don't get me wrong, I love the dirt idea...for breeders. I still haven't completely ruled out using it, but I don't really like the inaccesability. Actually, I despise the inaccesability. But I do want the best I can provide for my pets (within reason), and if I could figure out a way to do dirt and still be able to get to Sam, I'll use it. I was thinking maybe a 2-3" layer of dirt might still be nice, and if I sort of sunk some hides made out of the bottom thingys of those plant pots into the dirt, and started to dig a little hole into the entrance, maybe he would like that and I would be able to get to him when I need to?

I feel a little uneasy posting my thoughts on the dirt though, because it seems as though the amount of people that are all for using the 1' of dirt for substrate is overwhelming the amount that don't want to use it. [*looks over to see Robyn giving me the stink eye]

-ryan

i use finch food (sunflower seeds/cracked corn sifted). i know one very reputable breeder has used it for years. i was told less chance of impactions. i think it looks very attractive and ZION loves to dig in it. it is about 2-3 inches deep giving him enough to hide in but yet i can still see him. it is very easy to clean also. i know that Robyn doesn't agree with the finch food though. check around and good luck with your final choice. laura

That's probably what I am going to start with once I get his fecal done (I'm hoping to do that and a check up tomorrow). He's been through a lot already in his life and I know that I want him to be in a very safe environment that's still comfy (which is why I want to go to home depot tomorrow to get stuff for the hides and maybe to work on making a basking stack).

If there's one thing I've learned from my relatively short time in bearded dragon husbandry...hardly any one agrees on substrates. Right now the thing for them over on the forum is shelf liner (the rubbery, non-slip shelf liner). It works great for a lot of people, but I don't personally like it. I haven't tried it, but I've done the carpet thing, and papertowels, and I prefer particulate substrates. I have the time to spend with my animals individually though, and that's why sand works for me. I have time to take Sydney (the bearded dragon) out of his tank and feed him crickets in his feeding tub, and since he hardly ever licks the sand, I'm not worried about impaction right now. With some people on the forum, it's impossible to do this for all the dragons, so they have to feed in the tank, which would lead to problems with impaction. Plus it takes time to clean sand, much more time than shelf liner.

So apply this to uros. It is a little backwards though, because for bearded dragons, sand is a more stimulating substrate than some rubbery shelfliner, and for uros being able to dig burrows is more stimulating than being on birdseed or sand. You have to weigh your options. I don't even have a tank right now that would work for the deep soil thing, but hypothetically, it wouldn't really work out anyways. I may try a thin layer of soil in the future...sort of a setup like I said in the first post.

But not everyone is going to agree, and both sides have their reasons...unless one side is suggesting a really obsurd substrate be used (like lizard litter or repti bark).

-ryan

First off, no worries about Robyn.Robyn is just posting his extremely positive experiences with the soil substrate, he's not pushing it on anyone, or getting upset if people use something different.It's just yet another viable option, one that seems to be yielding some great results.

I personally feel the impaction issue is way overstated, how many people have actually lost a Uro to impaction that's kept with proper temps etc? They certainly lick the ground in the wild, also many people use sand exclusively for their uros without any impaction problems at all.They are a lot tougher and more capable than we sometimes think.

you have said a number of times, in posts devoted solely to saying it, you don't want to use soil. that's fine. i just don't know why you want to keep posting that. are you trying to convince yourself of that?

i am just sharing, and exploring some theories with a handful of other keepers here. no one is forcing you to follow along, do your own thing.

you do confuse HUMAN emotions and thoughts with URO "emotions and thoughts", but with more time and experience, you will get over that. look up "anthropomorphising" and learn what it means, and how it applies to you. it can lead you down some goofy, and awkward roads, such as sacrificing the health and "happiness" of your Uro (from the ANIMAL'S point of view) to satisfy your OWN desires to "play" with and see the animal, and thinking that it will be "sad" when it misses play time, as opposed to being "sad" that it doesn't have a proper hide spot, security, and tools that it recognizes as natural and instinctive (much more likely and natural).

just keep the Uro as you have it, and go "by the book". when summer comes, if you still want to dig, then go do it.

in the meantime, you don't want to do it. we believe you
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Robyn, I was about to sit down and write the same message...I agree completly. Alot of people think that just because there lizard will sit on there "moppy" head or lap or shoulder, or what ever, that they are happy doing so...They recognize human emotons and transfer then to there reptile pet. Example...he is sitting still on my lap...he must like it here...I will have to do this more often. I hate to tell you but if you miss a day of playtime, you lizard is not going to be "sad" or "get angry with you". Provide his food, an clean cage , that has hides, heat , good soil in this case, and your lizard won't care that you even exist.
good luck
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me

I don't handle any of my animals. I just sit there and watch them while I'm drinking a beer, or two, or three... anyway, I'm thinking that holding them all the time is too much stress on them. How can they possibly LIKE that? I think they are happier just being left alone and should be enjoyed by watching them in as close to a natural habitat as you can make. just my opinion. probably doesn't mean much though.
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Rick
1.1.2 Mali's
0.1.0 Nigerian
0.0.1 Ornate
137 lb. Male German Shepherd named Sabbath. Don't come knocking on my door unless you have an extra pair of skivies.

I personally like to take a more hands on approach. Now, let me explain myself before I get the "You're expecting too much from a reptile" or "Reptiles don't have emotions like people" talks. Handling reptiles in the literal sense can easily stress them out if done all of the time. It should only be done when you are taking the reptile out of the tank or putting it back in. When I say handling, I don't mean it literally. I take my reptiles out usually once a day for exercise. I call it 'play time' (which is probably why I'm getting the lectures about how reptiles don't have human emotions), but I don't actually try to interact with them, and I don't disturb their roaming about unless they are getting into trouble (trying to go behind things, etc.). I don't ever pick them up and just hold them or set them on me or anything like that. The only time they are held is when I take them in and out of their tanks, and even then I can tell when they start to get stressed, so I take as little time as possible when doing so, and I provide a lot of support so they don't think they are in danger of falling. They occasionally will crawl up onto me and hang out, and no, I don't see this as "Hey, they're crawling on me, they must like me". They just do it because I am like a giant heat pad to them...plus sometimes they get treats. But this does make them seem more pet-like, because an untame reptile does not usually approach something so much bigger than them and utilize their better qualities (giving off heat).

So I don't advocate "handling" reptiles, but I like them to get used to my presence, and letting them out to run around keeps their life from stagnating (this obviously doesn't apply to all species). I love the idea behind dirt, but it doesn't work for me because I can't fit enclosures big enough to justify not letting the reptiles out at least every couple of days. Naturalistic setups require far more space because the reptiles are getting all of their exercise solely from what they do in their tanks. They do get a lot of exercise from digging in dirt though which is why naturalistic setups work well.

But either way is fine. It's all a matter of opinion, and as long as whatever you do doesn't cause unnecessary stress on the animals it is fine (well, as long as the environment they are in doesn't cause health issues). If I had the space, I'd raise some reptiles in huge, natural setups...but I would probably also still like to have a couple that had the more pet-like qualities I have achieved from the reptiles I currently possess. So it doesn't come up again, by "pet-like", I don't mean that they enjoy our company or even really like us, but the fact that they don't see us as a threat.

I want to try the dirt setup. Though I love to have that special time of the day when my reptiles come out and play, I need to respect that if they are trying to hide (burrowing), they wouldn't want to come out anyways. So I'm going to try dirt. But, my tank is only 13" tall. I will eventually get a taller tank, but I want to know if there's way to use this one for now. Maybe if I made it so that half of the tank was a dirt slope, going from about 10" deep to 3" deep on the shallow side, which would allow for some burrowing. It's a really small tank for a dirt setup (only 48"x13"x13", but I would still like to try. If nothing else the uro could make a nice underground den? I would like to try it soon, but it's the middle of winter here and it's not going to be diggable for quite some time...and I think that the dirt that would be purchased at home depot or a garden supply store would be too dark no matter what the mixture is. There's some dirt in my back yard that seems the right color, and possibly the right texture for digging (when some other soils are mixed in and it has the right amount of water in it)...but there's a problem. I'm pretty sure my parent's aren't going to let me dig a hundred pounds of dirt out of the back yard. Plus, how would I sterilize the dirt? I think I would also need a new stand for my tank, because it's on a cheap metal one right now that's not even the right size for it. There's about a 9" overhang off each end. It could probably hold up to about 100 pounds of dirt, but I wouldn't be able to do a slope like I was talking about. I'll have to look into a new stand, or possibly a completely new tank (I would like to build some eventually).

Robyn, if I can't find the right dirt up here, would there be any way I could get about 100 pounds of your dirt. It would cost a lot to ship, and probably be hard to package. But, I would be willing to pay you for the shipping, the dirt, and the trouble of sending it. Where did you get that dirt anyways?

-ryan