Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is something I have been thinking about, and that has been making me question a lot of things. First, I'll tell you what started it. I recently (last month...day before christmas eve) aquired an adult mali uromastyx from a very neglectful owner. You probably remember the story...it was not pretty...still a couple vet visits too be made. So anyways, while asking questions and researching the uromastyx forum, I realized that they do things a lot differently than we do. I mean, there are a lot of people that like to take their uros out to run around the room everyday and think of them as pets, but I have noticed that a lot of people over there also never take their uros out of the cage unless it's for cleaning or something. They also seem to do a lot more natural stuff over there. The big thing for them is dirt. A lot of people are using cages 4'x4' or larger and filling them about 1-2' deep with dirt (because uros are a burrowing reptile). I like the idea, but most of the people that do this don't seem to regard the lizards as pets as much as we do our beardies. So that's been making me think.

What lifestyle do you think is better for these reptiles of ours? With the way I do it, and the way most of you do it, we take a more hands on approach in raising our reptiles, and we like them to get used to us and almost form a bond with us. some of the guys over at the uro forum prefer just setting up large, natural enclosures with dirt that the animals can dig deep into like in the wild. I have always been a firm believer that when I bring an animal into my home, it becomes a pet, and besides meeting the basic requirements, I try to treat it like I would any other pet (to a point). I mean, I don't sit around watching tv petting my reptiles, but I do let them out to have a nice time to roam around the house and get some exercise. But on the other hand, if you keep them in a very large enclosure that is set up just like their wild environment, they can get all of their exercise from running around in it, and they can also maintain their natural instincts.

To me it actually seems rather puzzling. My mali uro is much like my bearded dragon, so I have been treating him/her just like I do my bearded dragon (except of course that they have different temperature requriments, and I might try putting some dirt in the enclosure for him/her to make a little burrow). The uro seems to be responding to this treatment, because it is not at all scared of me unless I sneak up on it. What are your opinions? I would ask this on the uro forum too, but I already know their opinions on it. It's pretty much 50/50. One side treats their reptiles in more a way they would any other pet, and the other treats them like wild animals. I do think it would be fun though to watch what they do as they would in the wilderness. I guess that has a certain appeal to it and I can understand why some would like that. But it seems to me that then when you do have to take them out to do something, they will view you as a predator more than they will view you as a harmless person that gives them food.

What's your opinion? I'm not in the least sure what would be better. I suppose the natural setup would technically be better for the mental health of the animals?

-ryan

1. Reptiles don't need interaction like social animals (humans and dogs for example) so you are not mistreating them or neglicting (sp?) if your not social with them.

A large percentage of Uromastyx being kept in captivity are wild caughts. This by the very nature makes them more skittish and do better when left alone more often. I've noticed that a number of our reptiles do better the less we "fuss" over them. Our chameleons especially like to be left to bask, mate and eat and not bothered (I keep a large number of jacksons and their cages are miniature jungles where you really have to look to find them and they do very well since I started housing them this way). There is a vast difference in how an animal will react to humans when it is fed by them from the egg and introduced to them years after hatching.

Also there is a difference in uro species. Our somalians will run to door when you open it (usually looking for food) while just the opposite happens with our geyri. All you see is a flurry of tails as everyone runs for the nearest log to hide under.

So on a whole I think beardies take to handling a little better than uros mostly because of the length of time in captivity (all their lives as opposed to being wild caught).

Scales - Premium Exotic Reptiles

It all depends on the animal. Beardies are very accepting of handling. Other animals are not. I have no experience with uros. The happiest healthiest animals are the ones that are let alone to do their thing naturally. This may not be the case with beardies as some just love to be handled. Others do not like to be handled at all. I personally would not treat my GTP as a pet. It is a wild animal that views me as a threat and he packs a fearsome bite as defense (I have been lucky so far and not experienced it). Same for my Ig, he is a wild animal (all herps are really). I like to observe him and think he is absolutely gergous awesome creature. But does not like to be handled, and lets you know it. A lot of boas and pythons seem to take well to handle but it does cause them stress. I personally do not think many animals develop an attacthment to their owners. just my opinion.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I agree with Derek, it depends on the animal. My beardie is a baby and is from a long line of captive born and bred animals. He is very tolerant of me handling him. I am not naive enough to think he needs it or even wants it, but I reinforce the behvior by hand feeding him. This is for my benefit not his, but my position is that he lives in my house and on my dime so as long as it is not detrimental to his health I will handle him everyday if I want to.

Now, with my frogs they are strictly display animals. They do not enjoy, nor tolerate handling and it can be VERY detrimental to their health and I accepted this when I took ownership of them.

My desert tortoises are very interactive because of my role of "food lady" and we have a lot of fun with food and hose time ( my husband calls it Rain Storm in the desert, they come "running" over to get spritzed.)

My WC BTS female hates being held and I do it only to facilitate treatments if I should ever need to do anything to her. Her babies however have been handled everyday of their lives and do not seem to care at all about being held and associate it with feeding time.

I really think that a certain amount of desensitization is needed in any animal in captivity because it makes it so much easier to deal with them if they get sick. I also think it helps them recover if they do not also have to overcome the stress of suddenly being handled all the time for medical treatments.
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Stacey

I don't have much experience with reptiles but have an opinion on animals in general in regards to this.

I think it totally depends on how the animal was raised from day one. I also think it depends on the species. I believe there is a certain amount of hard code in all animals that simply can't be changed by it's environment but I also think there is less of this hard code than people once thought.

I don't know about reptiles but mammals seem to be making a lot of headway in terms of this.

I see a trend developing where there are more surprising things animals are doing all the time. Just last night I watched Growing Up Grizzlys on Animal Planet where a gentleman had raised bear cubs from day one and has a loving, family like relationship with these bears. He spent hours upon hours a day with these cubs and I swear they acted like dogs in this show. If you haven't seen it I highly recommend checking it out!!!

Now I've heard people on the forums say they think their beardies are jealous of other beardies or that they miss a companion just by observing their behavior. It could be anthropormorphism but I'm not entirely convinced that it is yet. It's hard for me to believe an animal that has such inquisitive behavior and what appears to be an obvious amount of emotion can be written off as purely instinctive bahavior and considered inanimate (I think I'm on the right track there).

But like I said I don't have much experience yet but I'm going to stick to my guns that my little guys appreciate and love me as much as I do them. If I had a chamelian I'd probably not have the same attitude because they tend to prefer solitude so again I do think it depends on the animal.
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Rob

Rob,
I saw the show your talking about...the bond he has formed with those grizzlies is amazing...did you see the first one last year?
When it comes to reptiles though, I don't feel that kind of "attention" is good for the long term health of the animal. Just because a dragon will sit in your hand all day, does not mean he is happy to do so...I think they just tolerate it at best. As such, I handle my reptiles a little as possible...this is just my opinion of course.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me

Hey Bill,

Yeah I saw the first one. Both shows were enlightening to say the least. That man has really demonstrated a lot of the behavior of the bears in the wild is learned and not entirely instinctual.

I don't know if you've seen it but Jeff Corwin sometimes shows a compound where monks keep rescued tigers that have either been discarded as pets or rescued in the wild for various reasons. Each day these monks take the tigers to an abandoned rock quarry and actually play with them. There are not leashes and not cages, the tigers just run and jump around freely. The monks carry a small stick about 1/2" in dia. to keep the tigers in line. Keep in mind some of those tigers were completely wild once!! They say they trust the tigers and in return the tigers trust them. Wow!!!

The animal world never ceases to amaze me!!!
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Rob

yeah, I saw that one several times...would have loved to been in Jeff's shoes that day.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me

"I'm going to stick to my guns that my little guys appreciate and love me as much as I do them."

I was tired, it was late and I think I wrote it because it sounded good at the time .

I really don't think they appreciate or love me. I think they are happy when they get food or whatever it is they need and upset when they don't. That's really about as far as it probably goes with beardies. Just wanted to clear that up.
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Rob

You know like Richard Pryor in that movie where every noise he's trying to hide under the bed or in the corner and ends up setting the house on fire.... Stiffening up when they are touched (for the most part) and generally kinda spazzing out about anything that moves including they're food. They just have that paranoid, jumpy look in their eye. They may have a learned behavior to people as food sources but I think you're right when you say that's about it.
I don't think when they lick you they're giving "kisses" like dogs and they deffinately won't come when they are called. (and I think I'm safe in saying that is ANY reptile) I treat mine like pets because it's neat to be able to be a part of thier life in that way. But deep down I know they are wild animals adn really don't care one way or the other about me or the lizard next door. (unless it's a head bobbing competition LOL) Stacey makes an excellant point though also about being used to handleing for medical/stress related reasons. I agree completely. I think a balance of the two evils is best for any reptile. That is just MPO.

Robert Wood

I think if you really tried, you could teach a beardie to come when it was called. It would involve food. Given that you can also do similar things with fish, it's not really a sign of intelligence, but it would be cute.
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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

Prove me wrong......

Robert

It would be a lot easier if my beardie were tame... and I was planning on wasting my time training my short tailed possum... Since I'm training him to a food stimulus anyway, does it have to be his name or can I use a clicker? Also, do you have any recommendation for the world's most tempting beardie food?
(I've seen trained sharks and octopi on TV and am now convinced you can train anything given the right motivation)
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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

I'd bet you could train a beardie and you may be surprised how responsive it may be.
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Rob

That's funny Robert because I have tried to think how it must feel to be a beardie and a schizzed out meth head or crack fiend is exactly what I imagined! Seriously!

Heh, other than veggies and greens I wonder if there's any, ahem, weeds beardies like to munch on in the wild . Oh yeah, I forgot about dandelions.
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Rob

There was a post in here last year about some beardies, especially females that someone had (can't remeber who) who went crazy and were violent after eating orange head roaches. I don't know why or if that is normal (and of course they aren't weeds but....) for everyone elses' beardies or not but kinda funny on this subject.... like horse apples for horses.... Maybe I should go trim a couple plants and see if they like the wacky stuff...LOL what is the phospherous/calcium ratio on cannibus leaves anyway? LOL j/k I won't allow my dragons to do that untill they are of legal age to make thier own choices.

Robert

I'm a big fan of naturalistic enclosures, but I still like to handle my animals. I just tend to tailor the handling to what I think the individual animal can handle. It varies from individual to individual.
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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

Beardies are usually tolerant of handling. Some people say that they "love" being handled. I don't think this is true, at least for my beardie. I think he likes roaming and exploring the house, and doesn't mind being handled, but he's not crazy about it. It's also nonsense that beardies love their owners - if we died tommorow, our reptiles could care less as long as they got the same standard of living.

That being said, I do think that handling is important for captive reptiles. Captive reptiles must deal with people on a daily basis, and if they learn that humans are no threat, they will be much better off. A herp that is "socialized" will not be as stressed out when their human caretaker feeds it, cleans its enclosure, or watches it. As someone else said, the herp will take vet visits and medication much better. And I think the mental stimulation that herps get when they are handled is good for them. In the wild, a herp has to deal with finding food and avoiding predators in a changing environment every day. In captivity, they just sit around and wait to get fed, with nearly identical conditions every day. Maybe reptiles don't get bored easily, but I think it's good to throw in a little variety into their lifestyle.

I had an interesting experience this summer... My fiancee and me went on a 1 week trip, and my fiancees' sister came to stay in our house and look after our beardie. When we came back home, she told us that our usually very active and curious beardie had behaved very strange. She had acted lazy, not eaten very much, and generally showed little interest in anything, other than staring around the room as if she was looking for something. Once we came home, she started eating like a pig again, and started running around, being active and everything.

Of course, it could just be a coincidence, but my fiancees' sister said she could swear that our beardie was looking for us, and feeling depressed because she didn't see any familiar faces. Funny thought, although it was probably just our imagination

Having said that, I think my beardie sometimes likes to be handled. Sometimes when I take her out, she'll run around and explore everything, but sometimes, she'll just sit on my chest, and when I start petting her on her beard, she'll bend her head upwards, as if to make it easier for me, and close her eyes. She'll just sit like that for as long as I pet her. 5 minutes, 15 minutes, or even longer. I take this as a sign that she's enjoying it. I'm no expert though, so maybe she's just afraid, sleepy, or something else

My guinea pig does that chin thing. Since it's pretty clear that otherwise, she hates me*, I always assumed it was some chin-eye-sleepy instinctive reaction among the cuter species of vertebrates.

*she's a cantankerous old pig who may have had a bad childhood. I love her even though she bites me repeatedly.
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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

I agree with part of what you said. I agree it's nonsense beardies love their owners but I disagree if we died tomorrow they could care less as long as they get the same standard of living.

I think if a beardie lived with someone from day one for five years who handled it on a daily basis with some good desploays of personality that beardie would be effected if that person no longer was the owner. I'm not implying the beardie would have a definitive emotional attachment but I would think at a minimum the beardie would have grown accustomed to the voice, personality, smell, etc. of a keeper who handled it on a daily basis and to a certain extent "miss" that person even if it's care were just as adequate.
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Rob

I think (agree?) that beardies do like to have us around, but I think most of that is behavior (begging) being rewarded with food/freedom/fun thing.

Some of this may be related to heredity... Our new guy Tarzan is a 1st generation from Aussie wild caughts. He DOES NOT LIKE US! He would rather that we never came near him. I know that Cheri handled him a lot when she got him, so the only other explanation I can think of is his heredity? Or are Aussies just rude? (jk, I don't think so!! )

On the liking attention front, we have a 20 year old russian tortoise who comes right up to you. When you pick him up he calmly looks at you. When you sratch his head he presses right into your finger. HE LOVES IT! So, I think this little guy actually likes us... but maybe the scratching is just another reward and the "liking" is another reward based behavior.

When you stop and think about it, does your dog actually LIKE you or is she/he taught to like you because of the cookies? (of course they are pack animals...)

OK! Silly rant over!!!

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Kelly Affonce
DeKeaff Exotics

AIM: DekeaffGrrl

I just can't say enough about dogs. I think they do so much for mankind they're just priceless animals to have around. I think if everyone had the right dog the world would be a better place!!

Have you seen the difference the dogs are making at prisons on Cell Dogs? They literally change the attitude of prison inmates and allow them to feel love again and it's prison wide! Dogs help heal people in hospitals, lead the blind, help people in wheel chairs, call 911 when there's an emergency, give full, unconditional love to anybody willing to let them do so. Of course there are exceptions but overall you just can't beat a dog for a best friend.

I'm sure there's other animals out there who their owners would say the same such as horses. Their owners seem to become very attached to them.

I just have a real soft spot for dogs, though and can't say enough about them.

Wait, this isn't the dog forum. I'll stop now !
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Rob

some of my pups past and present

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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

I love the one with the two different eyes. Are some of those wolfdogs? How do you think those compare to full blooded dogs personality wise?

All of them are just incredible.

BTW, I just saw your link for a snake measurer. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! That has been a real hassle for me.
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Rob

The first pic and the last are my 2 hybrids. We rescued them about a year ago in north florida. the first one is malmute/wolf and the one with the 2 color eyes is wolf/chow/husky. They are not dogs and should not be considered dogs. They have some very strong wolf traits. I dont recomend them for the average dog owner. I love them and wouldn't trade them for anything. I also got them as adults so I saw their personality first. There were over a dozen animals there that I would not even think about adopting.
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

Bennett wrote: "They are not dogs and should not be considered dogs. They have some very strong wolf traits. I dont recomend them for the average dog owner."

Thank you Bennett for clarifying this! I see so many of these animals end up in horrible conditions, euthanized , or (best case scenario) dumped off in rescue because people did not do their homework before getting one.

p.s Gorgeous pups! Here is my baby Lucy. Not a cool hybrid, just a 35 lb. rottie mix that I got from a rescue group. Lucy can hike 10 miles or sack out on the couch watching a movie, she's happy either way! She is the love of our lives! I agree with merestger, DOGS ARE FROM HEAVEN!!

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Stacey

I wasn't the one who said that... my dog, who is the only one I've ever owned, is a sneaky, manipulative social climber. Luckily for her, she's extremely cute and often silly.

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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

She does not seem incredibly thrilled by her couch mate!
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Stacey

She has this personal theory that if she can't see something, it can't see her. Small snakes make her vaguely disquieted, but she'll trot right up to big ones. All I can say is lucky for her she's domesticated.
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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

They are sure lucky to live indoors away from true survival of the fittest!
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Stacey

DOGS ARE FROM HEAVEN!!

amen
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

Slimmy loves me(hehehe).
When I open the tank, no food in hand, Slimmy runs to the front and waits. If I tap my chest and say "Come on, Slimmy"..She jumps on me and hangs on for the ride.
Love I tell ya, true love... *grin*
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www.classylizard.com

it seems that it really depends on the animal....i had a veil for awhile and he never liked being help or touched or anything so i just let him be and he was a beautiful great cage pet.....my beardies can't live a day without coming out of their enclosurers and playin around...they have nice natural enclosurers with sand and plenty of basking spots but i think they like to come out and be handled.....also i have 2 corns that like to be handled 1 eatern chain king who is kool wit bein handled....1 chineese rat who is really docile......and 1 king rat that won't be handled if he has nething to say about it....but also i have a tarantula that has no problem being held...but there are those out there that would kill u if u did...so all in all i think it depends on the animal...i think beardies prefer the handling and being out and about the house.....just my opinion

carbonatom13