Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm sure that this has probably been asked alot but I haven't been able to find anything on it! What temps should red tail boas be kept at during hibernation and is it necessary to hibernate them in order to breed them (I'm sure that the answer is yes but wanted to make sure). Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Christy

Use this link, specific info on temps...

Breeding boas explained......

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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

I will make this short and sweet for you. Do not hibernate South American snakes and do not worry about a breeding season. Hibernation is REDICULOUS. Alot of people live by it and also have " snot nosed animals." Do not waste your time reading a bunch of " OUT DATED BOOKS " that never proved in Scientific Theory to be correct as far as hibernation and a breeding season in a captive enviroment. Your snakes will breed when they are ready to breed and they will do it or not do it DESPITE your efforts.If you want to indulge other peoples EGOS and make them feel smart, while they give you a long list on ; " how to hybernate and breeding seasons. " Then, bye all means go ahead? Take good care of your animals and give them proper husbandry and give them CHOICES. Remember something VERY SIMPLE; " What you take care of, will also take care of you. GOOD LUCK,...........Johnson Herp

.....most likely does not want you to be succesful at breeding Boas.

One good way to tell that this statement is garbage is to look at the high # of "breeders" that will post pics of their Boas locked up or courting this time of year....and then the relatively low # that actually post litters from successful births.

HIBERNATION is not necessary (too cold)......but a specific period of cooling will GREATLY increase your chances of success.

To completely discount the natural changes in climate, and just "let it happen" is just asking for slugs or low success.

Most of the time people are "accidentally" successful breeding Boas by just keeping them in the same cage...are succesful because they cooled their Boas without even trying because of the natural temperature and lighting conditions within the room they are kept. Then they want to tell you that it "just happens". Not so.

Whichever way you go........good luck!

Tom Chambers
TC Reptile

I do not think it would be possible to closely observe Boa c. ssp. over a period of years as they grow, mature and have babies without concluding that seasonality has a broad impact on the development, breeding behaviour and reproductive success of these animals.

I've not seriously thought that people selling the Feed-em and Breed-em idea were knowingly giving bad info but rather (as was just noted) they work with a genetically limited sample and don't really watch the changes going on in their animals and facilities.

We can only guess at all the reasons why seasonality helps with raising and breeding boas in captivity. And it would be presumptuous to think that we can mimick to any high degree the conditions of these animals in nature. But it (seasonality) does work, and in some populations, notably the BCC, repeated reproductive success without providing a seasonal pattern is unlikely to say the least.

Gus

...are cooling their animals. Maybe their success is not due to this, but it is compelling.

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There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Rom 8:1

....I lurk more than I post these days.....so my tact was lacking here LOL.......didn't mean to be a d!ck.....all is said IM(not so sometimes)HO!

Peace - TC

Of course, I would expect those responses to what I said. I could sit here and name names of many breeders that I know and have known over the years and also with my own experiances in the past and the fact that I am going against the NORM would of course set me up for critisism. The fact still is simple; " When just ONE of you can show me through all your hibernation and breeding THEORIES that your success rate is even 70% of what you try and breed in a single year, I will gladly put the MORON HAT on for all to see. " If you try and breed lets say 20 females one year and 4-5 produce, your percentage SUCKS.It is a poor indication of all these THEORIES being proved. How many great and healthy females that are breeding with healthy active males do not do anything?? You watch them breed and copulate over and over and still NO OVULATION??? I am sure your argument will be that; " Those instances are an exception to the rule. " I think you ALL know that it is the RULE more than the EXCEPTION. These animals breed or do not breed, DESPITE what we do and not INSPITE of what we do. It is simply; " The luck of the draw. " and further more, slugs have nothing to do with, wrong time of the year. Slugs are caused by improper temperatures on the males. Wait a minute, that is just another THEORY!! Do I have evidence to back that claim?? Real scientific evidence??? No! It just sounded good and made maybe a little bit of sense, but still no grounds to make it fact. Just like most anything else that concerns this HOBBY. Christy, sweety you sound like you are new to this HOBBY and I assure you that you will meet ALL TYPES. Just remember to keep it simple and once again; " What you take care of, will maybe one day take care of you. " Good luck and to the rest of you, all I am saying ( without trying to be overly argumentative ) is: SHOW ME PROOF of all these wonderful THEORIES...........Johnson Herp

....Rainshadow, Jeff Ronne....I know you guys probably keep great records....anybody wanna throw their (far greater than my) experience into the ring here?

I don't know that all of the guys I've listed above "brumate" their animals, but of the ones that I do, their success rate seems to be greater than 70% and I (IMHO!) think that the percentage of "accidental" or "unconditioned" succesful breedingsovulationbirth is probably more like 10%. I think that environmental changes occur in the situations where unplanned litters happen without the keeper being in tune with it and these litters falsley support the theory that "Boas Happen".

Good debate though......so where are the numbers guys....anyone?

Anyone?

Bueller!

TC

The first boa I bred is kinda relative to this discussion and got me started on the path to successful breedings thereafter;
I had a nice female columbian boa that I kept with males off for a number of years...never any breeding activity. Then one year the temps dropped real cool here in FL and I was trying communal breedings in a larger cage. The female I mentioned was not part of these breedings and I had had her seperated in a smaller cage with a heat pad. Well as it turns out the heat pad had somehow become unplugged and I had not noticed it for a while...by the time I checked on her next, she was like ice...really cold to the touch. I panicked and set her in the communal breeding cage (where there was no breeding activity btw) which was heated with lights and heat pads. Within a few hours the males were on her like ducks on a junebug...she was receptive and she produced a small viable litter of 16 later on that season. I thought hmm...I had heard and read much on NOT having to brumate boas and was heavily swayed in that direction. Since then I have learned to fluctuate the DTH's and NTL's to correspond with the seasonal daylight and have found this to be the most productive method. Some of my boas do breed out of season, but I have yet to produce that way. I try to increase my DTH's on the cooler days and have all my heat on timers to go off through the evening hours during breeding season. I also keep my breeding boas in a room with a small window that keep dim lighting throughout the year but still allows them to follow the seasonal daylight changes. I have also found multiple males and sometimes just a shed skin of a rival male to increase activity. I also mist if the action slows down and break up the boas to feed the females (and sometimes the males if they look like they need it) and have found that when I put a male back in with a female a day or so after she has fed during these times, he seems to really dig into her (maybe he thinks her body is responding to his efforts?). I always make sure there's fresh water and I watch for those times when it goes down dramtically and agree with JR's findings on that...last year I had a pair of boas that bred for me and I did not turn the heat off on them as the pair was not set up in my breeding cages and I was feeling that if they were breeding then I wasn't going to interfere.....the female slugged out....the only boa I bred last year that did not produce for me....this to me was indication enough not to deviate from my methods...this year the same female is in the breeding cages and has been bred and looks tonight to be ovulating. Maybe in different collections boas are reacting to other stimulation, but in my collection and in my experiences seasonal cooling is the rule.
-Dino

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HOWS IT GOIN DINO, GREAT LOOKING BABIES. CANT WHAT TO SEE WHAT YOU COME UP WITH THIS YEAR.

that you provide absolutely NO seasonality at all (no temperature, light cycle, feeding cycle, etc...) and that you do have a success rate of 70% or better? just curious? b/c if so... i'm following your theory!
jb
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Jonathan Brady
"Sarcasm is angers ugly cousin" -Dr. Buddy Rydell (Jack Nicholson) in "Anger Management".

I know for a fact that you have strong opinions on this subject, and by now most anybody reading this thread should know it too! Personally, I do not see what the big deal is, no one here has claimed that cooling or cycling Boas is an absolute prerequisite to breeding, only that they have experienced increased success using cooling or seasonality. And everyone agrees, except perhaps you, that only by observing your own animals under your conditions can the best plan be devised.

Fine, I also have opinion on this and it is entirely at odds with yours. Personally, I think it an outrageous affront to be publically accused here of being an idiot or wrong-headed for sharing my thoughts and experiences on keeping the Boas with others who ask. My success with many Boas from all across their range speaks for itself and I offer advice freely with no strings attached.

You, sir, attacked the idea of using seasonality in breeding Boa c. sp.. this despite earlier posting that you do not work with Boa sp... in any event since you are the questioner it falls upon you to disprove the concept of enhanced breeding success through the use of climate manipulation not upon myself or others to prove it's efficacy. Why don't you show us that you can do it better, or with the same results, without any seasonality?

Of course you will need to construct a sealed, insulated and controlled environment so that your test breeders get the same photoperiod, temperatures and hunidity every day of each year for the duration of the experiment.. but it should be worth it to expose us all for the wrong-headed frauds you think we are.

Sorry, strong words require a strong response.

Have a super day!

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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

Maybe, I am a little brash. Or maybe just very misunderstood. I will give an example that should put this to rest, Mr Renfro, ( Who I have made clear that I truly respect! ) I did a survey six years ago and talked to breeders all over who are old timers and have probably produced more snakes than most of us will ever see. I put together a chart and found something really extraordinary. I seen through this data that, their most successful years had been when they had their animals together at a time when their area of wich they lived was experiancing the most barometric pressure drops. I then for a whole year, took reading in South America and seen that in: Suriname and Guyana and Venezuela and Peru and around the Basin, that; the barometer was always below 30.00 In Columbia and all of Central America, I seen that the barometer was like it is here in the U.S. always fluctuating. My conclusion was simple; " B.C.I. are easier to breed beacause, they are not screwed up by our atmosphere and if you want to be successful in breeding B.C.C., you need to put them together at a time when your part of the country is experiancing the most low fronts. Now, the point is a very simple one; " I believe this with all my heart and soul and believe that it is the number one factor for breeding boas ESPECIALLY B.C.C., but it is still just a THEORY! I think my hypothosis has just as much clout as any being printed in a book, through over a year of EXTENSIVE data gathering, but it is still just a theory. If I was a little less than tactful, than I apologise. It would not be the first time that I have been taken out of context. I believe, Mr Renfro that an intelligent man such as yourself can now see my point and if not, so be it.............Johnson Herp

I was attacking an Idea and not a person. I believe there are too many things in this society and in this world that are based on bone head opinions. Everyone and I mean everyone is intitled to their opinion. I am not trying to take that away. It is our GOD given right. I am simply saying, " You may not want to bet your life on opinions?? " Contempt, prior to investigation. I get that alot.............Everyones, favorite kind of guy!!!!...........Heresssssssssssssss..........Johnny

You did a survey and decided afterwards that local weather conditions determine breeding in Boa, but now come on the forum attacking the concept of manipulating weather patterns to breed Boas?

Nuts!

Also, your survey is poot, all anectdotal info and not tied to actual meteorological observations. We, who use temperature gradients in breeding Boa, can at least tie our results to real-time observations.

Who cares what the weather patterns are in Suriname and/or Guyana!? And in what part of those countries? Totally impertinant to the task of breeding Boa in captivity, we do not claim to make natural conditions for our breeders, only that what we do supply increases breeding success. Heck... both those places combined comprise some miniscule percentage of the range of Boa in nature anyhow.

Old timers? Hey.. 25 years ago no-one knew how to breed the mexicana complex of kingsnakes, now kids do it. If the freaking old-timers were so great at breeding boas where are all their stock? Why are we still scrounging the tropics for boas? You yourself recently observed that you longed for more boas like the ones you used to see. Contact those old-timers and get some.. The blasted old-timers couldn't do a dang thing with any reliability except kill boas and buy more. (The one part of the whole hobby we are trying to stamp out). You bet those old-timers could make boas! and I ran the 100 in 9.7 too! (stayed out of the olympics to keep boas)..

Fact.. we know alot more about the animals now than ever before. I would have given some part of my body 30 years ago to know as much about the general husbandry of boas and other herps as a lot of high-schoolers do now.. and you want to tell us we have learned zip and that breeding boas is a cr@p shoot? That kind of talk is just an excuse for people who cannot breed their animals regularly and also takes away from the hard work people put into preparing their animals and making it happen..

NO SIR, I do not agree..

Best regards,
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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

Great! Wonderful! Refer to last post. You are intitled to your opinion, " Your GOD given right as a human being. " We agree to disagree. I still do not feel that you have gotten my point and I guess it is futile at this stage in the debate. I brought up my survey to illustrate the very first thing that I was talking about on this post. I believe it, but; " THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT EVRYBODY ELSE SHOULD. " I think its fact, but WHO CARES! This was my point on pointing out that theories are just that; " THEORIES. " Another example; " Did you keep up with everyones production rates during the 4 years of El NINO?? During that 4ys everyone that I know, was dropping in production rates. I believe that it was because; " During that time, the barometer was staying high most of the time. " Guess what though GUS, Who gives a crap what I think!! Once again, my point; A THEORY. I believe it, but does that mean everyone else should? Of course not. I believe that the production rates have come up over the years, NOT because we are learning how to breed them, but because we are learning how to properly take care of them! Aboreal lovers use to think that you kept Emeralds the same as regular boas and not until they learned to give them cooler temps and not feed the crap out them, did people start to breed them. I believe it, but WHO CARES, it is just my opinion. Maybe I speak in tounges or maybe I am just an idiot, who knows?? Maybe if I get rich one day I can put forth money to do real research? Until then; " I have an opinion and a theory and you have an opinion and a theory and we all have opinions and theories. " We are all intitled to them, but without ROCK SOLID evidence to prove them, they are all worthless, or are they???? A wise man told me one time; " Try all things in life and retain what is good.When you know the difference, OBTAIN the things that work and bring joy, fullfillness and happiness!...................Johnson Herp

.. I didn't keep up with other keepers production during El Nino, La Nina or the world series either. I base my recommendations on observations of my animals in the environment I provide.

Your theory that natural conditions like barometric pressure trends have an effect upon boa production in nature is obviously true. As is also your assertion that the quality of care is a primary factor. (all of these things are in my website so we agree on this, at least).

When you make the connection that quality care includes supplying a temperature gradient and a seasonal pattern you will have figured it out.

I am probably by myself here, but this thread, which started out with a simple answer to someone's sincere question and has blown into this useless feud between guys who should be collaborating has really dampened my hopes that the online community will solve problems and make better lives for our pets.. could be just that time of the evening.

Sir, have a great evening...

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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

I couldn't agree more. there are some people that just go through their whole life carrying a huge chip on their shoulder,for reasons that are not readily appearant to the rest of us.any usefull information they might have to offer,is usually lost in offensive delivery,or,defensive posturing afterward. I thought the info provided in your link(wayyy up top) was well worded,and,concise...keep up the good work...R.

I know I said: " That I would not post anymore, but I need to say one last thing and then I will do just that. " I have not got a chip on my shoulder. I will agree that at times, I can be a little overly brash. I cannot, however understand why my post was taken out of contents?? I was merely trying ( to my last breath ) to say that; " Opinions and theories have their place, but you cannot bank your life on them. " Why is that so hard to comprehend?? I have killed more snakes in the past than I.B.D and learned everything the hard way, early on in this Hobby. That does not make me an expert and I do not claim to be, BUT I have seen and done things and tried things that just, do not work. I would rather people learn from my early ignorance, instead of having to learn the hard way at their animals expense. I am at least MAN enough to admitt my mistakes. In this Hobby, you will always have people that do not like you. I hate nobody, not even Billy, although I feel I have reason to, mine and his past is not here nor there. Most of us that are in this for the right reasons are all striving for the same goal; " To keep these animals alive and healthy. " You are right, it is sad when we feud like children and the bad is concentrated on more than the good. I feel, at times over the years that I have made myself " the bad guy " but moreso than not, I feel misunderstood. I guess, mans downfall is; " His ego and willingness to do anything to make his God forsaken point. " I have people that like me and work with me in this business and those who think I am a prick. I guess it takes all the; " John Johnsons, Gus Renfros, Billy Cagles, and Rainshadows and so on and so forth to make the world go around, " Good Luck in all your ventures. In the end, we are all just trudging the road to happy destiny..........John

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Ive been ready for 4 years now, lets have us a red neck HO DOWN! Winner, gets nothing more than a little bit of closure. I will meet you in the middle?? I love to dance, been dreaming of it a while now. When I go to " DIP " you, I will be sure to give you the knife back that you gave to me in the back. So come on old buddy, LETS DANCE!!...........John ........P.S. Dont worry guys and gals, my opinions were not wanted here when kingsnake first started and I see they are not wanted now, so throw a party. I get the hint and Im gone. Im not a bad guy, just passionate on what I believe in that is a result of what I have seen. I wish you all nothing but the best, especially the ones that are doing this for the right reasons. I had to learn from my screw ups and hopefully some of you will too. As for you Billy, I still would like to have that dance!