Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Why are we considered the enemy?? Sure, there are people out there who collect animals from the wild (which I do not condone) & people out there who collect them illegally (which I definitely do not condone). It seems to me that there should be some type of MUTUAL respect. I can sell someone a Captive Bred & Born animal so there is no need to take them from the wild. I would like to believe that is the reason most herpers keep animals. When they are non-existent in the wild, there are groups in captivity. Habitat destruction – not over collecting - is the main reason animals are endangered in the first place. I believe that in general, Herpers have a dislike for F& G & DNR because of the way they view us – it is obvious that they believe we are the enemy. I was @ a show in PA this weekend, and finally observed a UNIFORMED officer there. I commented that it was nice to finally see an officer there IN UNIFORM in case anyone had a question. His response was “I’m always here.” Well, I can tell you that he may always be there but never in uniform. I wanted to make sure that I was able to sell native animals (Black Ratsnakes) at that show & even had a printout from PA Fish & Boat Commission’s website that said I was permitted to if I could prove that the animals are legally obtained. I told him that we do have a OH permit and it just seems like he didn’t really have a clue but didn’t want to let on that he didn’t know. His first response was “Do you have a federal permit?” – as if he was just looking to cause me trouble & not help. Who has ever heard of such a thing? A federal permit to keep & breed Black Ratsnakes in captivity? How are people supposed to have a “good” relationship with “the powers that be” when all you are willing to do is bust us instead of helping us? Why are there not UNIFORMED officers at shows to answer questions & point out problems? We are not bad people because we care for herps, most of us want to be “above board” but how can we get answers from agencies that only care about protecting their own jobs. You guys are apperantly observing the internet & shows for any possible illegal activity. Why not make it obvious that you are there to help? I think most of us believe you are only interested in making money and causing us problems. That, along with protecting the wildlife, is probably the only mutual feeling we have.

Jollif,

I stewed on this one for a while because I could not decide how best to answer your question. You have packed a lot of emotionally charged stuff into your question that is impossible to deal with if you are unable or unwilling to try and look at the reptile pet trade from a perspective other than that of the victim. If you can honestly say that all of the animals you and all your friends have bought over the years came from captively produced stock, and you can say that you and every one of your friends takes impeccable care of all of their animals, and you can say that neither you or any of your friends own any illegal, smuggled or over the limit animals, and you can say that every time you see some rare or unusual herp for sale you don’t have the urge to buy it, and you can say that you honestly believe that it is the cops responsibility to make friends with you and walk you through the law book to make sure that you understand each and every law, then, AND ONY THEN, can you claim to be the victim here.

Now the reality check.

You are part of a community of like-minded people, and within that community of herpers there are a number of common facts that bind the community together such as:

*A huge number of reptiles are collected from the wild (legally and illegally) every year to supply the huge market for pet reptiles here in the US and abroad.

*The market for reptiles is increasing at a very rapid rate.

*People get busted poaching reptiles from nature preserves, parks and even from breeding programs every year, and many of the poached herps wind up in the pet trade right here in the US.

*The majority of the wild collected animals will either die in transit or shortly there after because of poor or improper conditions.

*Populations of reptiles in the wild are being depleted or completely whipped out because of over collecting.

* A large number of herpers seem to think they are above the law.

o Herpers illegally collect and keep protected animals (foreign or domestic) as pets, and then they joke about it.

o Herpers state they know more about herps or herp laws than the cops do, so therefore it is OK for them to break the law, and then they joke about it.

o And the worse part is the herp community stays largely silent and, is thus CONDONING this behavior.

* Herpers, as a general rule, are drawn to collect rare and or unusual animals, so there is no end to the demand for new and rarer species that must be collected from the wild to satiate the market.

* Some herpers are willing to pay outrageous sums of money for rare or unusual animals, which makes the collection of rare animals profitable.

* It doesn’t matter how good your intentions are, there is nothing about your keeping a pet reptile that in any way conserves wild stocks!

o The only possible argument you can make for some benefit of captive breeding is the reduction of the number of animals taken from the wild for pets.

* Wild collected animals are usually cheaper than captively produced ones, so there will always be a market for wild animals as long as herpers CONDONE the wild collection of herps by buying cheaper wild collected animals or by keeping silent when others do.

The following are a few key Wildlife Law Enforcement facts that relate to this discussion:

* Reptile law enforcement is but a very, very small part of a Game Wardens job.

o Their job is protected by selling hunting and fishing licenses, busting you is just plain fun!

o And NO, it is not their job to give you GOLD STARS or respect for obeying the law!

* State Troopers don’t stand out in the middle of the road holding a radar gun with a neon sign over their heads stating they are there to check your speed, so why do you think a Game Warden should tell you they are there to make sure that people conduct themselves in a legal manor? If they did, people would always obey the laws…as long as they could see the cops!

* State Troopers and Game Wardens operate under the same principle. ‘You can’t catch everyone, but you can make an example out of a few, and scare the rest straight!’

* It is no more the Game Wardens responsibility to teach you the laws governing herps than it is the State Trooper’s job to teach you traffic laws.

o All States publish and provide free copies of the states game and fish laws where hunting and fishing licenses are sold, and most have them available on the web too.

o The US F&WS provides free brochures on wildlife laws as well as supports an excellent web site with lots of information and links.

o There are commercially available books and pamphlets that explain reptile related laws (e.g. Levell’s “A Field Guide to Reptiles and the Law”).

So Jollif, if you want to continue to play the roll of victim and wallow in self pity, that’s your right, but don’t be surprised when your hobby gets shut down around you. You do not have a Constitutional Right to keep herps! And the climate of tolerance for illegal activity and animal abuse is a thing of the past. If you want this hobby to continue, you had better stop complaining, start taking responsibility for your part in this activity and start trying to fix the problems within the community because if you don’t, wildlife law enforcement officials and HSUS will do it for you, and I’ll give you a hint, the longer you and the rest of the herp community take to start making changes, the more your going to loose! It is all up to you.

Finally, you seem to be assuming that I am a member of the wildlife law enforcement community that is ruining all your fun to justify our existence. Now ask your self this, if I was a “Big Bad, jack-booted Wildlife Law Enforcement Officer without a sole who’s only goal in life is to justify my salary by stomping all over herpers”, why do you think I would go to all the trouble of actually trying to communicate with herpers and suggest ways to improve the public image of the herp community and improve relationships between herpers and wildlife law enforcement personnel?
Logically, there can only be three conclusions. First, I’m completely full of “bovine hay residue”, I am not a member of the law enforcement community and I am just trying to mess with people’s heads on the Internet for fun. Second, I am the rare member of the wildlife law enforcement community who actually keeps herps, and I want to continue to keep herps, and I know that will not happen unless the herp community cleans up it’s act, so I'm trying to fix the problem from the inside. Third, I am a member of the wildlife law enforcement community who is trying a more positive tactic to slow or preferably stop the depletion of wildlife stocks and the illegal trade in wildlife without impacting the herp hobby any more than is absolutely necessary. So unless I am completely full of bull stuff, your assertion is incorrect.

Big Brother

Sad...but true is all I can say to the above post. For every concerned person in this hobby that tries to do something positive, there are dozens of people who's interest in this only goes as far as the next great snake to buy, sell or breed.

You can't depend on your local F&G officer to know the in's and out's of the laws reguarding herps. The truth is...few do. Big Brother is right when he says their main focus is not on herp laws. The Daytona Expo (last year)demonstrated that fact.

I got the unfortunate news last night that two of our regional Herp societies folded. What is sad about this is, these societies are part of the very few groups of herpers that care about the enviromental issues and actually try to do something about it. The lack of interest in such societies combined with the increase in people who are in the Breeding/importing business, is a sorry commentary on our hobby.
Big Brother is unfortunatly calling it as it is. And no...I am not a game officer either.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

As a 55 year old herp hobbiest and doing the " reptile thing " of the past 40 some years, I will try to break down and comment on the resaons i disagree: ( some i will agree somewhat but not totally ):

* a huge number of reptiles are collected wild every year *
> true but not as huge as before and if we think of the wild collected for the pet trade, there is evidence that shows another ultimate goal for other countrys in skin trade and food.

* the market for reptiles is increasing at a very rapid rate *
> actaully not at a rate it did several years ago due to bans in cities, townships, state, laws, home owner insurance polocies, housing communties, home owners associations, etc.

* people get busted poaching reptiles from nature preserves, parks and even from breeding programs every year, and many of the poached herps wind up in the pet trade right here in the US *
> I would very much want to see the documents that show this. How would the animals be re-cycled back into the pet trade ? Wouldn't that be illegal ?

* a large number of reptiles are being depleated or completely whipped out because of over collecting *
> as a one time collector, importer, and breeder, again I would like to see the very proof on this. There are way to many vairibles on this subject to make this blanket statement. While I truley beleive that SOME might meet this statement, not very many taking in account of OVER habitat destruction and human population.

* herpers illegally collect and keep protected animals as pets and then they joke about it *
> maybe in your CROWD of people, but never, ever have i ever heard of this.

* herpers are drawn to collect rare or unusual animals, so there is no end to the demand for new and rarer species that must be collected to satiate the market*
> while basically true on some, but have you ever heard of gene pools of captive animals to lead to designer genes ? Knowing that one time almost ALL of the oringinal parent stock might had to meet this criteria, not very much anymore. I fact not very much of the last or so decade.

* it doesn't matter your intentions, there is nothing about your keeping a pet that will conserve wild stock *
> bulls##t. I have been on a program in my loacl area that proves this wrong and I MYSELF as a keeper and collector of wild at one time can testify that I no longer do this because of the hobby and captive breeding ! If you mean straight out collecting of wild doesn't conserve, ( read above ), but if you mean habitat destruction doesn't conserve wild stocks...true !

* the only possible argument you can make for some benifit of captive breeding is the reduction of animals from the wild*
> read the above comment from me .

* wild collected animals are usually cheaper than captive produced *
> do you really think this when I use to make my runs to west Texas to try to find alterna knowing I could of bought a better looking animal for one tenth of the total cost of trying to find them ? Or better yet let's look at the common red rat corn snake ( formally known as Elaphe guttata guttata ). Let's see, if I was into wanting to collect this specie from where i live and say i would try Florida , I would travel a round trip of about 3,000 miles, take about 7-10 days in order to do this, and pay about $300 in fuel, about another $300 in lodging , of course would be LEGAL in permits, another $, would have to buy most meals out, another $. Then i would be betting that i could even FIND any ! Why I bet this trip would cost arond a $1,000 easily. Now I could stay home and find several of this species at a local pet store, reptile show, the classifieds, etc. all captive born and who knows what generation bred in captivity and spend probably under $100.

I will comment on the other part of this thread later after i try to digest it !

Chambo

I too have been involved with reptiles for a long time (I am 52 and caught my first herp-a snake at age 5).
I can only answer what you have questioned from my own experience and that is mainly local but I will hit on some key ones.

Here in South Florida the market has gone down since our ecconomy is on the rocks. I still see more people trying to break into the breeding Business.

I have heard many times people bragging about the harvesting of large amounts (usually turtles...often illegal)of herps. Not as much lately as the overdevelopement and predation on our local (turtles) for food by our (over 60%) imigrant population has badly depleated anything outside the Everglades.

I have in the course of years either convinced people to release (or turn over to the authorities) dozens of illegally collected species. A prime example was an Indigo that I confiscated and turned over to F&G that was brought to a pet shop to be sold (the owner called me because he was not sure about the legality). The F&G officers recognized the parties (who left before they showed up-without the Indigo)as profesional poachers who had specialized in Indigos and they were caught and prosecuted. This confiscation is on public record.

Your arguement about the cost is logical. The only economical way to collect any species is in bulk-to offset the cost. To my experience the majority of such collecting has been done by amatuers who are after the "thrill" of collecting their own Trophy.

Our local sources import large amounts of w/c species. I have been collecting (and studying)the strange and exotic all my herp career and I still see species new to me at the rate of 5-6 per year (that is the conservative estimate). I used to deal with one (major importer and you used to find all his (less than top markt) imports dumped together in big steel tubs to rot. Word I have is it still goes on.

Several years ago we had a speaker at our herp society who went to Egypt on a herping expedition. In his slide show he showed the commercial collecting of herps by the locals. They would collect any kind of herp they saw (including several species that they knew they could not legally sell). These they would dump loose into rooms and leave without food or water till they sold or died and rotted. I was not there gladly because from the pics it really had to smell awful.

I do not argue that habitat destruction and the collection of herps as food heavily outweighs the pet trade but I can also point out for example, that the number of herps in Central Florida back in the eighties, were greatly reduced by over collecting by Ross Allen and his crew at Silver Springs (info supplied by F&G).

the only benifits from captive breeding are (besides the reduction of w/c) the possible preservation and relocation of nearly extinct species. Here in South East Fla we are witness to the near disppearance of many of our larger herps as well as species like our local skinks (lost to overdevelopement). Even our "Brooks King" is getting rare (hopefully there are still some pops in the Everglades that are out of reach and surviving.

Anyhow, that is why I agreed with Big brother. He may have been off on some of the fine details but the overall picture is accurate.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

while I have had 2 brothers living in Florida and one at the present living outside of Tampa, i have made 40 some odd trips to some of wholesalers that we are probably talking about. And i also knew Allen on a semi-basis. You got my attention on the importers still in business down there when i was buying from them in which stopped about 8 years ago. the reason for the very numerous trips was for " cherry picking " the reptiles out. I'll just give the around location of the wholesellers/importers i did business with and as you said, i also know for a fact some are still doing the doings but with all that is going down anymore i have wondered how they stay in business ( although i have my suspiction ). Tampa ( 2 ), Ft Meyers ( 1 ), Ocala ( 1 )and Gainsville ( 1 ). Now I have never lived in Florida. I live in Kansas and the business was in Kansas City Mo. Probably another main reason i almost HAD to go down there was because no matter how many times or how much money i spent with all of them, they just couldn't be trusted. Wrong size, sick animals, wrong sex., etc. After I went full time into breeding, I had no use for these guys. I have said before that if they curtailed this part of the industry or made it a little more watched, we would be in maybe not so much of a problem as a industry/hobby. But then again, I have also stated that if there is a foot in the door with anything relating to reptiles and all that goes with the industry and hobby...........there goes more of it. What do you think ?

Chambo

I love it when my post is written and the message is deleted by a sign in message when I am allready signed in!!!!!!

Simply put, it is not an easy situation. On one hand the import trade kills thousands of herps each year. The other side is that many of these herps are only valued in their native countries for their value in the Skin or Pet Trade. Without that value they are eaten or indiscriminatly killed as pests by the locals.

I am reminded of a talk I heard (Gainsville 1986)where the speaker pointed out that in some parts of his country it is illegal to photograph the local herps. The mining interests are afraid that knowledge of these animals might cause a problem like we had with the Snail Darter.

It is for those reasons that I cannot support a total ban on w/c imports.

I have allways advocated the need for us to police ourseves. The bigest problem is that most of the small dealers are aware of the abuses, but turn a blind eye as they need the animals the larger importers/and collectors bring in.

Then too, many buy species that are new, attractive, or rare, not caring to learn the right ID or how to keep these herps alive. Instead they depend on rapid turnover. The result is increasing the demand on animals that are beautiful, but dificult to keep.

I do know some that try hard to maintain quality care for their animals. It really is about encouraging the best and somehow penalizing the worst.

It is sad that so many dealers look with distain on Herp societies. Not only are they a way to reach out and influence laws governing our hobby, but also they are sources of valueable info on (especially) most of the rarely seen herps that come into this country.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I’m not claiming to be a victim. I’m claiming that herpers – as a group - are considered the opposition. There is no RESPECT between two forces that have (or should have) the same goal – to conserve what’s left of our natural treasures. I have no immediate control over what other “herpers” do, what they keep, or how they keep their animals. However, I can voice my opinion about such matters but do not wish to “have control” over everyone else’s actions. People have choices in this world – regardless of what type of government they live under. I make the choice not buy from people who keep there animals in poor conditions or frequently deal in WC animals. I know some (if not most) people with a badge feel we, as a society, do not know what is best for us & wish we would just conform so we are all exactly alike – but it is not going to happen. I’m not saying that people who make the “wrong” choices should go unpunished. I’m not asking for a friend, a gold star, or someone to guide me thru the laws even if they are generally hard to find or figure out. I’m saying that if someone is trying to find an answer to what is legal & what is not, an officer’s job is to help. You’re (assuming you are employed by the government – which I’m sure is the case) not paid by us to get us in trouble – you are paid to teach us right from wrong under current ordinances of the law. I believe that most of you get some kind of ego trip out of busting us. – “Their job is protected by selling hunting and fishing licenses, busting you is just plain fun!” I’m sure there are many jokes between you all about which one of us got busted doing what. I’ve never heard anyone joke about getting away with illegal poaching of wildlife. Again, in your eyes, we are all the enemy mocking you behind your back. Where are all of these jokes from? Is there some kind of book? We don’t clock out & go home to our families – this is serious to us – this is our lives. And let me tell you something else, many people with badges think they are the ones above the law. Not you of course, I’m sure you have never drank a beer & got behind the wheel or broke any kind of law what-so-ever. I’m sure you are perfect! As far as the REAL Officers of the Law go, I have never meant an officer with such disrespect for the people he/she is there to serve & protect. I think that is the point you are missing and probably the reason most could not get a job as a cop or state trooper. You want to throw everyone here in the same pot, we'll throw you in with all the crooked power-abusing "authority" type figures. P.S. I don’t keep rare species of animals but what kind of sense does it make to let a species become extinct (mainly due to LOSS OF HABITAT – not over-collecting) if a captive breeding program can be established? What kind of sense does it make to make Albinos, Leucistics, & other naturally occurring mutations illegal to take from the wild when they will surely be preyed upon or die due to natural short-comings?

I can appreciate your angst. The Daytona show (03)was a sad comentary on F&G officers who knew the letter of the law but demonstrated a fear of the animals (in the hot show)as well as a lack of knowledge about them and those who keep them.

On the other hand, the Officers that have inspected my facility have shown knowledge and genuine concern for (not just the welfare) but also learning more about the species I keep. I think part of the solution would be for officers in animal enforcement to attend classes and/or herp society meetings so they could learn more about the animals-and the Legitmate people who keep them.

Trust is built on familiarity and communication.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Thank you one and all! It looks like I finally got the discussion started. I am sorry it took a baseball bat to do it, but I really believe that this is a discussion that we desperately need to have as a community because organizations like HSUS and PETA, which I am not a member of BTW, would like nothing better than to shut us down. I sincerely apologize if I have insulted any one, especially you Jolliff, with the manor in which I started this discussion, but we as a community have to own up to the fact that we are involved in a hobby that has a real dark side to it. Ignoring or deigning the dark side of our hobby only feeds the critics and allows the dark side to continue to grow in the shadows, which just makes our down fall that much more likely. I have made some suggestions in the previous thread “More Taxpayers Dollars Being Wasted” about ways to improve relations with Law Enforcement and the public, but that is only going to happen after each and every one of us make a conscious decision to no longer tolerate or support illegal activity in any form, animal abuse or animal mistreatment.

Now to clear up a few misconceptions.

Yes, I am a herper too, and I have been for over 30 years. I still keep some 25 to 30 herps of various species my self, but at one point I had a collection of over a thousand, and yes, I was acting in a professional capacity at the time. Most of the herps I still keep are animals that I have bred myself or were rescued, and most of them I have had for many years and/or many generations. The few wild collected herps I have in my collection are rescued critters, such as my box turtle that was run over by a car many years ago and is thus missing about half his shell, with the one exception of a tortoise that my Dad bought for me when I was about eight years old, and yes she is still doing fine and I still breed her! YES, the parent stock for all of the animals I now own were wild collected. I see it as my responsibility to continue these lines so that no animals from these species need to be collected from the wild ever again.

Thirty years ago there were only a handful of herp species that were being bred on a commercial basis, so most herpers were forced to either buy wild collected animals, which were usually in very poor health, or collect their own stock. I can remember buying wild collected Tegu specimens seven different times before I finally figured out how to keep them alive (remember, 30 years ago we did not even know about UV light), and it took another ten animals before I was successful at breeding them. This species is still very common in the pet trade, and we now know how relatively easy they are to breed in captivity, but people are still collecting them by the truckload for the pet industry, and yes, for the skin trade as well. If you read the reports on the Tegu trade you will see that live pet Tegus are worth two to three times as much as the dead Tegus used for skins. The good news is that the Tegus collected for the pet trade that die don’t go completely to waste because they can always be sold as skins, but the bad news is that the higher value animals collected for the pet trade is what makes the collection of wild animals profitable! I wonder how long the skin market would survive at its current level, if we stopped buying wild collected Tegus for pets? The few scientific population studies available on Tegus suggest that most, if not all, wild populations of Tegu species are now in serous trouble, so we have ample reason to stop taking them from the wild to protect wild populations. Yes, the skin trade will continue if we stop importing wild collected Tegus, but for how long, and at what level without the profitable pet trade component? I don’t know for sure, but I think it will decrease for simple economic reasons, and even if it doesn’t, decreasing the take of Tegus by even 10% could be the difference between extinction and survival for many species. I for one also think that our public image would be greatly improved if the only Tegus being sold in the pet trade were captively produced. This is a realistic goal, but we don’t do it because wild collected Tegus, which are often in poor health, are cheaper than captively produced animals, and because we as a community have not come out and denounced the practice of buying wild collected animals when captive ones are readily available. Further, the lack of competition with cheaper wild collected animals would only support a larger number of breeders here at home. In short, stopping the influx of cheaper wild animals would increase the sales of captive animals, and thus support a larger number of professional herp breeders. This would actually help our hobby, not hurt it.

Finally, we need to honor the contributions of all those animals we collected from the wild and essentially killed all those years ago to determine how to care for and breed them. Thirty years ago we were saying we needed to collect animals from the wild so we could learn how to produce them in captivity thus eliminating the need for more animals to be collected from the wild in the future, but here we are in the future, and we’re still using that same concept as the excuse for continuing to take Tegus from the wild. When are we going to do what we said we were going to do all those years ago and stop collecting Tegus, and other species, from the wild? How many more animals do we need to collect from the wild to keep our hobby alive? When do we finally say that we have enough animals from the wild to support our hobby as we have been saying we were working toward for the last 30 years? The time is now! Right now in the US, we have more than enough animals with more than enough genetic variation, from more than enough different species to support captive breeding programs right here in the US that would support our hobby, so we now have the ability to continue our hobby without wild collection. We, as a community, need to stand up and honor our word. I for one would sleep a whole lot better at night knowing that I was no longer contributing to the depletion of wild reptile populations by continuing to participate in my life-long hobby.

I am not an “Anti” herper, I am a herper with a conscience who feels I need to honor the memory of all those Tegus “I” took from their homes and killed, so I could enjoy my hobby and learn from their sacrifice. I am a herper who said I was trying to ultimately conserve wildlife. This discussion is not about ending our hobby and/or business, this discussion is about standing up for what is right! We all know what is fundamentally right, and honoring our word and protecting the animals we love before they are gone from the wild is the right thing to do! Our hobby will continue without the continual influx of wild animals, and in many ways it might be even stronger. And above all, HSUS, PETA and the various wildlife protection agencies could no longer look at the herp community as a bunch of hypocrites!

Big Brother

Quoting BigBrother:

* Some herpers are willing to pay outrageous sums of money for rare or unusual animals, which makes the collection of rare animals profitable.

Yep. Always makes me laugh. Wild-caught Uroplatus and $50 gold dust day geckos come to mind here.

On the other hand, I can understand rare animals that are bred in captivity being expensive.

* It doesn’t matter how good your intentions are, there is nothing about your keeping a pet reptile that in any way conserves wild stocks!

I agree. Unless you are shipping your hatchlings back to the wild, you are not helping conservation. Grant it, your are not really harming populations, but don't take credit for something your not doing.

I don't know if he is anti or isn't. I do know that it is wise to hear what our critics have to say...because those are the arguements they will use on us. Big Brother brought some ugly points about our hobby right in front of us. If we are to defend our hobby...we do have to answer those charges.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I understand what you are getting at. But I think it is better to hear the critisim straight and be aware of what others think is wrong with us, than to pat ourselves on the back and say "we are not as bad as so and so..." That breeds complacency and that is more dangerous to us than any obvious threat.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Kevin,

I know there are lots of other people out there in the herp community, most notable you (and I applaud your start with NAORA), who generally feel the same why I do but chouse not to do or say anything about the problem, and that’s what I am trying to change. The biggest problem we face are the vocal people in the herp community who refuse to admit that there is a dark-side, and that there is a real problem with people buying herps that have no idea how to properly take care of them, and that people within the community think it is ok for them to break the law by maintaining illegal animals or smuggling. If people start to openly talking about the problem(s) and educate them selves about it, we can find ways to solve the problem(s) ourselves without outside groups, who have much different agendas, forcing solutions down our throat. We need to make the changes ourselves, but not just because we are being forced to, but also because it is the right thing to do.

Now that we are on the same page, do you, or any one else, have any ideas how to bring this conversation to an audience larger than the relatively few of us cyber herp geeks that participate in this forum or that visit your website? I thought about writing an article for Reptiles Magazine that includes all the available statistics on the problem (and yes I would discuss the skin vs. food vs. pet problem with the numbers), but I seriously doubt they would print it for fear of the backlash they will receive. What do you think?

I’m going to start a new thread with an idea I have for solving the problem. Any bets as to how many people are going to blast me for proposing a solution to a non-problem?

Big Brother

I did not miss that...And I did not intend my statement as an attack on you. I just think if the Bad part isn't talked about here, then where will it be discussed. If you took that personally I apologise.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."