Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Can some one tell me what this is?

Pictures are on http://www.slangenkweek.nl/dione1.JPG

Thanks,

my snake's

n/p

I looked at the other photo as well on your website and agree - it is E. dione.
Ophidiophile Farms

The only question is, "What locality is it from?" It kinda looks like one of my South Korean dione.

one of my S.Korean diones. I was thinking dione, but will admit that I was too chicken to post. LOL The spots on the one pictured here begin to lose shape (so to speak) after a couple rows. The spots on a bimac seem to hold their shape farther down the body. I'm saying this because that is how I tell. Is this correct? I put my bimac enclosures by my dione enclosures and started comparing them. I took the pics in your posts Terry and clicked back and forth from bimac to dione. It looks to me that the spots on the bimacs stay more pronounced going down the body than the spots on diones. I have five different pairs or trios of diones so it's not like I'm looking at one dione. I'm seeing differences in the pattern on the head, but haven't started using that for ID yet.

>>The only question is, "What locality is it from?" It kinda looks like one of my South Korean dione.

Bimacs tend to have at least some spots that meet across the back to form "bowties". Diones' spots sometimes meet across the back but this is much rarer and when it does occur, they do not form the bowtie pattern because the shape of the spots is different - smaller and rounder in Dione than Bimac. This is not a foolproof way to tell but is definitely a strong central tendency.
(I know I was fooled by Glenn Polanco's albino bimac because its pattern of spots is IMO much more consistent with it being a Dione than a bimac. But I've never seen it in person so it's been hard to tell from the photos.)

Bimacs tend to have at least some spots that meet across the back to form "bowties". Diones' spots sometimes meet across the back but this is much rarer and when it does occur, they do not form the bowtie pattern because the shape of the spots is different - smaller and rounder in Dione than Bimac. This is not a foolproof way to tell but is definitely a strong central tendency.
(I know I was fooled by Glenn Polanco's albino bimac because its pattern of spots is IMO much more consistent with it being a Dione than a bimac. But I've never seen it in person so it's been hard to tell from the photos.)_____DT

Terry and David....I agree that the "bowties" are a strong tendency in bimaculata, but can also occur, although more rarely, in dione. This is my w/c, Seoul, S. K. dione male...

Bimaculata tend to have a stronger head pattern, imo, also. Look at the spearpoint connecting to the first bowtie, and also the line through the eye and across the snout is more complete. The head shape in bimaculata tends to be a little more pointed than dione's too, and bimaculata's head is a little shorter than dione's usually...

Next picture is of my original "blonde phase" bimaculata. Notice her spots/bowties, which are so light colored as to almost disappear into the stripes. Bimacs tend to be slightly shorter, but a little more robust than dione. This snake is in the early stages of gravidity too.

Another male South Korean dione. He was the father of last year's clutch. He has spotting, but hardly any bowties. His claim to fame is more overall light brown color.

This final pic I put in to make one last point. Because of the small size of their spots, usually, dione tend to make "bands" with crossovers rather than "bowties". This is very common with the more northerly variations of the species. The number of spots/bands/bowties tend to be higher in dione than bimaculata, also. That's because bimaculata is usually from quite a bit further south than dione and like other snakes tend to have fewer and larger spots/blotches the further south or the lower in elevation they are (generalization that might not be shared by all).

Hope this makes a little sense....TC

to help me right now. You mentioned the head marking and/or shape previuosly, but I haven't picked up on it as yet for some reason. In looking at the snakes I have in person, I was noting the spots first. The pics help show what you are explaining Terry. I'll try focusing on the heads of the ones I have. There is nothing like seeing them in person. Pics are great, but people are really missing out not seeing these in person. IMHO.

Seeing them in person is much better than just looking at the pics. Seeing how they handle and other aspects of personality can't hardly be shown in a picture. Plus, I think just uploading pics to the internet takes something away from them.

Terry, you know I pretty much just work with animals I'm really interested in, either for the pet potential, or for the scientific value. So, when I post something on the Forum, I'm usually trying to promote them based on their pet value, or I'm trying to be educational. Since I'm most interested in behavior and ecology, that's why you hear the type of info that I put up.

With the bimaculata and dione, there's no really easy way to class them. Sometimes they look very different, sometimes a lot alike. I'm just trying to point out the things I look at and the reasons why there are some differences. The spots/blotches/bands/bowties are just one of the ways I try to "gestalt" the snake, but actually I'm more interested in where and how they live. Hope I don't make things too awfully confusing.

My previous post probably would have been better in a different spot. TC

any other info whenever you feel the urge Terry. We can't always wait or see if that particular question will be posted. A post is the opportunity to put up any and as much information related to the subject of the post. You can even tie in another species if it is relavent to the post. It's a way to find out if I have the wrong understanding of something or the correct one. There aren't too many questions. There aren't too many posts. I get emails regarding my posts. Some threads we could switch to trading emails. You can send me an email if you want to trade info or anything one on one. You're one of the best Eurasian rat snake hobbyist/breeders (I need to come up with something better) I know. I should include North American rat snake with tht. There's others too. I could have emailed you about how I was trying to ID a bimac or a dione. I just thought it would benefit the original post. Someone puts up a post: "What is this snake?" There's three posts to it. They all state: It's a yellow rat snake. O.K. that answered the post. How did you know? Oh, I'm rambling now and I've drifted away from the subject of the thread. Sorry.

Thanks, Terry. If it's educational, I'll post it.

As far as these Forums go, for me, it's about how much I can learn, and in sharing what I know, or am thinking, with my herper friends.

Thanks for the compliment. I do like the Eurasians, but there's lots of very knowledgeable herpetologists out there. Sometimes the smartest person is the one who simply posts his/her observations, but I don't mind going out on a limb sometimes, theorizing, as it tends to stimulate conversation and discovery. I just hope I don't offend anyone.

I hope everyone here realizes I'm keeping the snakes and spending time on the Forums just for fun, and I hope to make lots of friends with fellow herpers out there. BTW, I finished up the 2002/2003 school year last Friday. Now I'll have lots of time for cluttering up the Ratsnake Forum, haha. Did you ever notice how much I tend to ramble in a single sitting?

TC

A few comments on differences have mentioned the head pattern. I've just noticed the spots on the two species as having those tendencies. Of course, good locality data doesn't hurt in IDing snakes. Maybe we should throw in rufodorsata to mix things up some more. LOL. I'm supposed to be heading down Glenn's way and hoping to see him. I would have loved to see his albino bimac in person. She's gravid now. I think she's at another persons house.

>>Bimacs tend to have at least some spots that meet across the back to form "bowties". Diones' spots sometimes meet across the back but this is much rarer and when it does occur, they do not form the bowtie pattern because the shape of the spots is different - smaller and rounder in Dione than Bimac. This is not a foolproof way to tell but is definitely a strong central tendency.
>>I know I was fooled by Glenn Polanco's albino bimac because its pattern of spots is IMO much more consistent with it being a Dione than a bimac. But I've never seen it in person so it's been hard to tell from the photos.)