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Ok I have yet been able to keep a fireball red, any ideas. My latest setup is a 15gal high with 2x13watt 6500k CFs. The fireball is about 6-8 inches from the light. Should I go for 10k lights? Any ideas?

Here is a link to the tank:

Other than going to 2x36watt lights, i'm not sure it is possible to get much more light on this tank. Is there a chance the red will come back? It is not all gone, but is less than in this picture. The brom is growing well, and has attached to the cork.
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

Kyle,

You need more light! The color temp of the bulb will do nothing for the amount of light you have, so changing to a 10K bulb will not help. I have used 3 13watt lights over a vert 10 and still had the fireballs turn more pink.

I would go for the 36watt or even the 55watt kit, the bulbs are the same length. The more light you have the more red you will get. Plant color, someone posted this the other day, is based on light and UV. Now that I am thinking about it... a UV bulb will make the brom turn more red. I know most froggers say darts don't need UV light, but my buddy breed bleu-jean pumilio thinks that those frogs may need it. But then how does one really test that theory.

Sorry for the change of topic...

Ben

Thats ok ben, but I'm not sure how much more I could add really. I could go for 3 or 4 13watts, but its really not worth it. Interesting on the UV, but with the glass lid that is not going to happen.

The 16watts from AHSUPPLY are 16.5 inches long, and the 55s are 21.5, the tank is only 20 long.

Even though:
2 bulbs at $16.99
and a 2x36 kit $62.99
Total: $96.97

I can buy 4 more shop lights and bulbs for that, or 4 more 15gal highs, or 2 of a lot of frogs. Darn light, where is the sun when I need it.
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

A cheap source of 13 watt compacts are the 9 inch undercabinet light at Home Depot I get mine for 7 dollars, I remove the bulky plastic casing and mount it in a hood.
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Jacob Pott's collection
As of 1/16/04
1.2.3 Leucomelas (the 3 juveniles are the brightest orange I've seen there almost red, there not from my trio)
1.1.16 Green and Bronze Auratus
0.0.2 Imitators
0.0.1 Vents (more soon)
0.0.2 Nicaraguan Green and Black Auratus
0.0.3 Citronella Tincs
0.0.2 Powder Blue Tincs
0.0.2 Yellow Back Tincs
1.1.0 Surinam Cobalts (extremely soon)

kyle, the 55s would be exactly what you need for the color you want. It won't hurt for the hood to everhang the tank a bit.

joe
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4.0.0 Tinc Patricias (darn it)
0.0.5 Aurotaenia
0.0.2836 Pea Aphids
0.0.4392 Springtails
0.0.1842 FruitFlies

Ya thats not the issue, i'm just not dopping another $100 on lights, when I can buy other things.
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

I hear you on the $ issue. I try to keep the compact on my "display" tanks and eggfeeder tanks. The compacts just make the brom hold water for much longer. And for the rest of my breeder tanks and raising/holding tanks I get the cheap shop lights.

Ben

I am in the same position as Kyle. Also, I have already constructed and stained my hood. It is only long enough for 36 watt bulbs.
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Matt

Kyle,

I posted this in response to a similar question:

The pink/red/purple coloration is the result of secondary pigments (chlorophyll being the primary plant pigment), namely anthocyanins. These pigments are used in the leaves of plants to prevent photoinhibition (where the amount of radiation striking the leaf exceeds its capacity to use the energy produced resulting in some disruption of the electron transport chain or bleaching of the chloroplast). The pink color left your plant because the amount of radiation it was receiving in the tank was not great enough to pose a risk of photoinhibition. While more chlorophyll was probably produced (or replaced, as the granna of shade leaves are structured differently from those of sun leaves) it is unlikely that this caused the change in coloration, as some one had suggested. Increase the intensity of light in the tank and color will return. But, how much you increase the intensity will determine how fast and how much of the color returns.
_____________

As for your situation, it maybe a lack of intensity in certain wavelengths. Photoinhibition is the result of the same wavelengths used for photsynthesis, as it can be thought of as overloading the photosynthetic "machinery". While the lights you have maybe emiting a large flux of light across the visible spectrum, they are probably lacking those wavelengths needed for photosynthesis. Not to say they aren't producing enough for the plants to thrive, just not enough to induce anthocyanin production. My suggestion would be to add a light specific for plants or to move the brom. closer to the bulb.

WOW, very good information, I wonder if they even make CF bulbs that produce that spectum of light? I have thought about trying some AGROSUN bulbs from the local store but they are about $19 each for 40W fluorescents. They seem to have a wide spectrum. Any idea what end of the spectrum is required?
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

Reds and blues, predominatley blues.

But aren't the 10k lights blue? Red is in the lower kelvin if I remember right?
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

Here is the way I understand it, somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Color temperature describes the appearance of the bulb based on an idealized system, the black body. A cool black body appears black, as you raise the temperature it begins to glow red, then orange, yellow and so on. Continue raising the temperature and it eventually glows blue then white. Each one of these colors corresponds to a certain temperature of the black body measured in the thermal units of kelvin. You can think of the black body as like the elements on your stove, as they get hot they begin to glow red. While this would have some correlation to wavelength, as a bulb could not appear blue unless it was emitting blue light, it does not describe the amount of light of a particular wavelength being emitted. So, just because a bulb appears blue this does not mean that there is a high output in the blue wavelengths. Typically, in plant physiology we describe light in terms of photosyntheticly active photon flux density (PPFD), which would be a very reasonable way for bulb manufactures to describe the output of their plant lights (but they don’t use it). This is a measure of the number of photons, oscillating at the particular red and blue wavelengths necessary to excite chlorophyll, striking a given area over some unit time (typically umol/m2/s).

What it boils down to is this. If you want to increase the output of photosyntheticly active radiation (PAR) in your hood you need to increase the number of lights you have (of course this will lead to an increase in output of all the other wavelengths you don’t need), you can try and hunt down compact fluorescents that emit a much narrower set of wavelengths closer to PAR (try hydroponics shops), or the probably crazes solution, yet quite functional, you can build an array of the LEDs used in gas exchange cuvets (check out LYCOR). If you are a little bit off, much like my self, the last choice might be suitable and quite appealing, but probably not all practical.

Hope this helped in some way and didn’t completely confuse the issue, but you can’t efficiently manipulate a system until you understand how it works.

Thanks all of it is great info. I have been reading a lot on light and have yet to come up with a new plan. I might order some 27watt compacts that are 6500k, and 1750 lumens each. Should be more light than my 2x13watt. I am still looking around. I am also wondering about the heat as the 2x27 will be hotter than the 2x13.
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

I would really look into the lighting used with hydroponic systems. I know there are some specialized compacts out there, just don't know who makes them. A good place to look (as I've never searched the net for those) would be the classifieds in Horticulture magazine (top notch gardening publication). If you were up for it you could try metal-halide or high pressure sodium bulbs (LOL).

Good luck,

Those bulbs would kill the frogs in a few minute I would guess. Way way too much heat. I go to a local store that has them and about 3 displays and the room is about 80 or so, and it s bit room.
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

GO to Sam's or Home depot and pick up some of these compact flourescents that screw into an incandescent socket. they are very cheap like under 20 bucks for 10 26 watt bulbs that put out an enormous amount of light. they are about the equivilant of a 100W bulb in light output.

-Andy

Most good hydroponics systems use high pressure sodium lights or a combination of HPS and metal halide. you can buy conversion bulbs for getting halide colors out of a HPS fixture. to prevent having to buy 2 sets of lights.

if you want to go the compact route I have been looking at a type of light you can even find on ebay the envirolight
or if you go to wormsway.com I think they call the exact same light just the hydrofarm 125W CF...This brand may be cheaper too.
still kinda expensive though. although these lights are specificly for growing ...For a cheap decent solution check out the Incandescent CF's at home depot..

I might order some, but the ones at those stores are only 2700K, and a bit yellow. I have found some that are 6700k, and 1750 lumens at 27watts.
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

i think the ones i have been getting are the 6700k, and 1750 lumens at 26watts.the specs aren't posted on the package but I looked at the GE website and found them, and I do believe that is correct.

i use 2 on a 10 gal and have had great results. it seems that I can even nurese sick plants (small ones)with that much light.

Kyle,

For our tanks, we use several different types of lighting combinations.

On my rack, my 50 gallon and my 90 gallon we use 48 inch shoplights (the 50 has 2, total of 4 40 watt bulbs, the 90 has 3, total of 6 40 watt bulbs). I only use one fixture for the ten gallons (one fixture fits over 2 tanks on the rack). Bromeliads that were not red when I got them have turned red, same with Nepenthes and philodendrons. Bromeliads also pup very well. With the shop lights, I use half GE plant/aquariums bulbs and half daylight bulbs (a mix of GE brand and Phillips...I believe the Phillips brand can be bought cheaper as a non specialty bulb at HD, but is the same output as the more expensive GE Sunshine).

On our stand alone 30 gallon, I bought the Lights of America compact fluorescent security lights (make sure they say Fluorex on them, otherwise they are a nasty yellow and not daylight...sort of like a standard incandescent). I use 2 of these on this tank (I believe 65 watts?) with the standard fluorescent strip that came with the tank, in which I put an overpriced Fritz aquarium plant bulb. Visually, I see no difference between PC lighting and these LOA fixtures at all. The fixtures are around $25, and then another $7 for the electrical cord.

On our smaller "holding" tanks, which we still like to look nice, I am using the screw-in daylight compact fluorescents, Comercial Electric, $7.99 Home Depot, in clamp lamps attached to the rack. Chad Mayer went to a dollar store found them selling daylight CF bulbs of a generic brand. There is no difference between these and the Home Depot brand, except they probably won't last as long. These bulbs put out GREAT light and great plant growth. On any tanks that I can't use shoplights, this is the way I am going to go. I would still like to add a "red" bulb to offset the color a bit for a display tank.

I have seen many tanks using power compacts, and I can honestly say that the plant growth we get is the same, for a much cheaper price. Sometimes you just have to get a little creative...
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David Knight
Tempe, AZ

3.0.1 D. imitator
3.2 D. leucomelas
1.2.1 P. terribilis (mint)
0.0.2 D. azureus
0.0.1 D. tinctorius (Alanis)
0.1 D. tinctorius (Brazilian cobalt)
0.0.4 D. auratus (Panamanian green and bronze)
1.1 M. madagascariensis
1.0 P. hypochondrialis

www.frognet.org/gallery/davidknight

Ill second what Dave said. The plant growth on his large tanks using shoplights is probably greater than on some of my tanks using CF bulbs. But, Dave has more space to work with on his largest tanks, or he has small tanks mounted in racks, so he can get away with 4 ft long tubes. Those of us with smaller arrangements (I use a 3 ft rack with single 96 watt CF bulb) have to use something more compact. And, those screw in bulbs can put out a LOT of light. Finding those bulbs for 99 cents was a score!

Kyle try this: pick up a 65 watt lights of america 6500K security light from home depot. Theyre a really bright fluorescent bulb with 4 separate tubes. Small size. I had several go bad on me until I took the thing apart and removed the ballast. I put in a splicer to extend the output of the ballast (for the input wires, I just wired an extension cord and plug onto it after removing it from the enclosure). This way, the ballast itself isnt contained within the housing. Therefore, its not exposed to the heat generated by the bulb. That seems to have solved the burnout problem. I think they switched to a cheaper ballast of some sort at some point and that is what led to all the burn outs that people saw with this arrangement. You could get two, for a total of about $60 and use your current hood over a 10 or something. Problem is that light intensity falls off very rapidly with distance, and youre trying to light a "deep" tank. I think if you got 1 or maybe 2 of the lights of america fixtures and bulbs, that would solve your problem.
BTW, their customer service really sucks. I emailed them looking for a solution to this problem and got no help whatsoever. I finally just decided to solve the problem myself, and removing the ballast and mounting it remotely seems to have solved the problem, at least up until now.

Chad just has bad luck.

The 2 I have have been going strong for 8 months
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David Knight
Tempe, AZ

3.0.1 D. imitator
3.2 D. leucomelas
1.2.1 P. terribilis (mint)
0.0.2 D. azureus
0.0.1 D. tinctorius (Alanis)
0.1 D. tinctorius (Brazilian cobalt)
0.0.4 D. auratus (Panamanian green and bronze)
1.1 M. madagascariensis
1.0 P. hypochondrialis

www.frognet.org/gallery/davidknight

Ok i found that ESU reptile makes a hood that fits two screw in bulbs. And I figure if you get those GE screwin compacts that it would give you a really good amount of light output fot the plants . Plus you could change them up with red bulbs for night viewing ect...

Why spend the money on something like that?

Clamp lamps will work just fine...and the outside can be painted to match your decor.
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David Knight
Tempe, AZ

3.0.1 D. imitator
3.2 D. leucomelas
1.2.1 P. terribilis (mint)
0.0.2 D. azureus
0.0.1 D. tinctorius (Alanis)
0.1 D. tinctorius (Brazilian cobalt)
0.0.4 D. auratus (Panamanian green and bronze)
1.1 M. madagascariensis
1.0 P. hypochondrialis

www.frognet.org/gallery/davidknight

HD has dual incandes. sockets for like 5 bucks. all you need is a cord and some wirenuts..

Yes that will be my next try, I will replace my 2x13w with 2 sockets and 2x27watt bulbs. Whould only cost me about $20 or so, with shipping. Since no place local sells the 6500k ones.
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

Not a bad price, but i will have to oder them. I might be able to reduce the heat, and up my light by going with 2x27watt (1750 lumens each) bulbs which I could easliy mount in my hood. They even make a 42w ones that are 2800lumens.
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators