Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey everyone. I have just been wondering about all of the australian goannas here in the states, and the lack of paperwork/cites documentation most people have(or do not have for that matter,) for their captives. Are the majority of our australian varanids(one's most of us don't have documentation for) illegal, or is it just illegal to try and sell them to somebody outside of the country.

How did the origional, founding line of goannas, that were brought into the US "back in the day", attain proper permits/cites documentation for them? I was under the impression that australia closed it's doors back in the 70's. I remember hearing about a group of V. glebopalmas that were smuggled in to the country a couple of years back that were confiscated by fish and game, because the captors did not have any paperwork on them. Who's to say that our acanthurus, or panoptes, or glauerti were not smuggled? Sure we could say that they were captive bred here in the states, but would that hold up in court if "the man" came to take away your animals? Is it now that certain species are "established" in captive breeding projects, that "the man" simply doesn't point any suspicion anymore? Just curious..

I noticed that several canadian breeders have such permits and are exporting their c.b offspring to europe. I have not heard much about breeders here in the states having cites documentation,(maybe Frank) or heard of anybody purchasing australian herps from breeders here in the states recieving any documentation. What about beardeds, knobtails, womas, etc..??

I am just curious if technically, the animals we love and keep are actually illegal or not. I have heard different things about the government's involvement with overseeing aussie herps in the trade, and am just curious as for the legality of things.

Frank, didn't you say you had the "man" confiscate some animals from you? I vaguely remember you replying to an old post of mine about glebopalma in the states... I can't really remember though...

bob

Man, can people mess up things.

First, its not our job or requirement to have papers or permits for appendix 2 reptiles. No matter what country they come from.

That goes for pythons, boa, iggies, and monitors. Remember all monitors are appendix two. All boas, all pythons, etc.

It is the responsibility of the importer to obtain CITES and other necessary permits. CITES 2 requires permits to cross national borders. If you are not crossing international borders, then you have no need to have permits. There is no permit required to keep appendix 2, reptiles.

You really should call a local fish and wildlife agency or look them up on the internet. You can purchase the CITES regulations from them.

I bought a glebo from a person in germany, he send it with permits and proper paperwork, but our government confiscated it anyway. It was not shipped to me. It was shipped to a dealer in Fla.

The government did what it did because they can. The problem, as I understood it, was there was never a permit issued out of OZ. But the animal in question was legalized under a german amnesty. So it was legal by german CITES. You should understand the that OZ has done at least two amnesties, and consider what they do legal??????????? Oh well, its not about the animals being endangered. Its simply about people.

You should understand, all varanus are on CITES, because four or five species are used in the hide trade. The rest are there by name only. For instance, if the subgenus odatria was used instead of varanus,(and it should be) then ozzie little monitors would be like beardeds and ozzie geckos. Theres no problem with them being shipped and they are protected in oz the same as the monitors.

About those glebos, are you sure they were in the country? I am not sure they ever were. F

years ago, Reptiles mag, published what have been legally imported with cites. The list included such species as ackies, storrs, tristis, and a few others.

At one time, I was very interested in what had been imported legally, so i called fish and wilddogs, they said, we lost all of that. We have no record of any ozzie species being imported. How funny that government circular file in action. They simply do not have any accountability. They do as the please.

One question, do you have permits for your tree monitors, they require the same as any ozzie monitor. F

Hey Frank,

thanks for clearing that up; I just didn't understand how that worked exactly. As for the tree monitors, aren't some indo species allowed to be imported even though they are appendix II? I heard that the blue trees and yellow spotted trees(boehmi), being only described recently, were probably imported in as another species, such as doreanus, or becarri; where if I/others did in fact have the CITES paperwork that the importer recieved/has, it would probably say doreanus,indicus,etc.... This is what I heard as to how they were brought in, I'm not sure if it's true or not. I was never given any paperwork when I purchased my animals. Aren't these species(becarri,indicus, doreanus) commonly imported with CITES paperwork, although they have quotas in their native land? I thought that there was a much stricter policy from both our government and theirs, referring to the import/export australian flora and fauna. Are you saying that there is no difference in status between legally exporting animals from indo as opposed to australia?

As for the glebo's that I heard about, I believe that they were smuggled in by Global Herp, or one of their "affiliates". On their website, they advertised that they have bred them in captivity(which I seriously doubt) and wanted 5k a baby. I heard through my asian turtle conservationist buddies, that Global Herp(hank molt) is a notorious animal smuggler, and has been in trouble several times in the past. I think he got in trouble this past daytona show by fish and wildlife for some shady business if I'm not mistaken... ONce again, I'm not 100% sure of these alligations, but I heard about the glebo's from a couple of people.

Anyways, leave it to our own government to "lose" their files regarding aussie goannas/herps... So, do they have an unofficial record of what they believe to already be in the US, or would they be oblivious to new species "magically" arriving here?

Now that they have officially been described, macraei and boehmi will no longer be exported, however, haven't they been moved to the status that the prasinus have; where only f2 generation can be exported?? I am surprised that WC becarri is still being shipped over here.

The second generation deal, is a bit funny. It really makes me laugh. If you did obtain the CITES regs, you will notice a few nice helpful paragraghs. One says something like, if CITES animals are bred in captivity(not in country of origin) they are lowered a catagory. I, becomes II, II, becomes III(species of concern, but not regulated)

If you read what the I,II,III, mean, you will get a nice chuckle. Of course CITES I, means endangered. But CITES II, means, species to be kept track of, in case they need protection. They suppose to issure permits to cross borders, but not interfere in that traffic. Hmmmmmmmmmm they missed that boat too.

So I asked about that, and was told, thats true, but it has to be done in a CITES approved facility. Then they throw in the kicker, THERE ARE NONE. SO our fellas allow indo deregged species, but not ours. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

V.prasinus, has been locally protected for as long as I can remember(over 15 years) but were imported as "kordensis" (which is illegal) So that makes all them in our country illegal?????? thats the same as ozzie reptiles.

Dealing with F&W, is a bit like dealing with a local street gang. They do not have to be right, or play fair, they have the power to effect your life. And they will do so, if upset. They told me, I can do whatever I wanted, just don't import or export, so thats what I do. right or wrong, they won.

In any business there are risks, with breeding monitors, the daily risks are the monitors themselves. To include the risks of importing is simply to much for me. Besides, there are always those who like those risks.

I get the feeling, Hank was not the suggler, but the one that ends up with recently imported animals. He does have guts. I really have no idea what he does now, but he is one interesting fella to talk to. I enjoy his company. But then, I do not have to be exposed to what he may have done.

He told me about those glebos for many many years, yet I was never convinced they were out of country of origin. That occurs for many species, I have been offered about all things cool. My guess is, if the money is there, then there are people who will take the risks. At this time, there is little money to take risks. So, just do not offend the gang and all is well. F

I was really amazed to read how Americans legalize ILLEGAL reptiles!! For instance all Australian varanids are protected in Australia, and if I am not mistaken the LACEY act. includes foreign laws.
It's real easy to smuggle reptiles and legalize them in the states you just claim it to be Captive Bred, the reason its so easy is that you only have STATE LINES to cross and CITES has no effect on it. And only once the International border!!

In Europe only a few Germans (mostly scientist) have received legal documentation for their reptiles from Australia, and only they can give the propper documentation for the animals. When you go to a show in Europe you at least cross several borders and also customs (yes i know Europe has no borders but the customs and wildlife services do check vehicles that cross the border at least in Holland they do, on days of shows being held).

I have seen Varanus gilleni (1.1) smuggled into Holland by tourists (the same shipment contained Knobtailes, other geckoes, and 2 Taipans!!) Shiped in a box through mail!!!
The guy who had the Gilleni has no permits and cant deal with his animals because of the wildlife services (which is a good thing!!) Hopefully they will get him soon!!
Thats how easy it is to smuggle them, and if there is a buck to be made most will try to do it!!!

Also there are on EVERY reptile show, wildlife officials and customs working to check all animals traded are with proper documentation!!! And in Hamm, they check pictures of hermanni's!! if they correspond with the picture of wildlife service!! (which is good, so its harder to sell illegal CITES animals)

Europe has also import bans, and most monitor species are included except those who are traded in the skintrade. Beccari for instant are listed from at least 1994, and the complete quota goes to the USA!! Sometimes the bans only include wild caught animals and captive bred can be imported!

I have several times tried to import Australian varanids from several breeders but NOT one could give me EXPORT CITES, well that says enough for me! In Holland you can only get a EXPORT CITES if you can prove the animal is CB and you must have the original CITES number, or the breeder from who you bought your animal! And for every single animal you must pay, for each document!

And Frank CITES is NOT ONLY TO PROTECT FROM SKINTRADE!! All the animals that are listed on CITES I and II are in need of protection from, several reasons, but the main reasons are wildlife trade, bushmeat, and skintrade! So please dont say its only because of some skins and the rest is there by name!!!!
Its more serious than that. And why are there quotas then? Because to much animals are caught, which endanger the population and can eventually make them extinct in a region! Why do you think beccari's have quota, because they are black?? no it's because they live on a island and if there was no quota thousands would be exported!!!

And yes it's the job of every reptile hobbyist to have his or her documentation in order, if not confiscate it ALL! Every hobbyist should be responsible for his hobby and if that means thay must have the paperwork so be it!! If you dont want the paperwork don't buy the animal!!