Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The less you know it seems. I was just thinking about someone's post, asking about the first chameleon you ever kept. Thought I'd share own story.
My first chameleon was a WC (Hawaii) Jackson that I purchased when I lived in Hawaii from someone at the side of the road in 1994. I didn't know ANYTHING about chameleons, didn't know what it would eat or its requirements. But I got really lucky.
My wife didn't want me to keep it in the house, so I figured I could just keep it outside. It was wild caught, so why not I figured. I built it a smallish 18x18x36 screen cage, and I kept fresh branches that I pulled from my banyan tree in its cage for it to crawl on. I didn't really have access to pet store bugs, so I would feed it roaches and other bugs that I caught from my backyard (there were TONS of roaches!). It got plenty of fresh air and natural sunlight. For water, I would simply spray the whole cage down with my garden hose twice a day. I would keep the spray on it until it would quit drinking. I had him for about 2 years and he was a great little guy. He finally escaped from me and went back to his wild life.
I never supplemented (didn't know I had to) him and I never had any issues with him. I found him to be one of the easiest to keep pets I've ever had. It wasn't until later that I realized just how difficult (in general) they are to keep if you don't have a tropical backyard to keep them in. I didn't know about UVB or MBD. Didn't know about misters and gutloading. And I definitely didn't know about parasites! If I'd have known about all this, I would never had gotten that Jackson in the first place.
I still think that chameleons are easy to keep, as long as you provide the right environment for them. You wouldn't keep a Great Dane in a tiny apartment with no access to outside because its wrong environment. Same thing with keeping an adult Jackson chameleon in a 10 gallon glass tank... give them both the right environment, good food, regular vet visits and you won't have much issues. Just my humble opinion.
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi.tripod.com/sdchamkeepers/
gomezvi@yahoo.com

Well, you pegged this one. When you think about it, if we remove any wild animal from its habitat the only way it will stay as vibrantly healthy as it was in the wild (except for the natural hazards of that life of course) is to re create exactly the habitat it originated in. In most cases this is extremely hard to do indoors or on a continent with completely different climate, foods, space, plants, microbes and bacteria, etc. Successful creatures are critically fine tuned to their habitat. Not just the obvious things like temp and humidity, but resistance to diseases or parasites, need for micro nutrients and subtle environmental things like light exposure or social interactions.

You can certainly go farther with this philosophically too. Is a chameleon really a whole chameleon without its rainforest around it? Is a condor really a condor sitting in a zoo or is it only complete when soaring over the mountain it evolved with? Hmm, maybe this is why most of my house gets turned over to chams or my birds...at least they have more than the typical space to live in. I can sort of understand why some animal rights groups feel many animals should not be pets (if it has a more natural living in its wild habitat), but feel they also take it to extremes. I do agree that some animals should be kept by no one but themselves. The trick is to know which ones these are (and that depends many times on keeper opinions!)

Now you KNOW I have to chime in to the Great Dane analogy!

Great Danes, as adults are VERY VERY VERY LOW activity dogs. INDEED you can (and I have) kept them in small apartments with no problems whatsoever. Great Danes are THE best indoor dogs I have ever known and probably will ever know. As puppies, they are terrors, but as adults, they are the kindest, gentlest, smartest dogs anywhere! I know this and I speak this out of personal opinion and not because of something I read.

I think a better analogy (speaking from personal experience again) You would not keep a HUSKY in a tiny apartment. HUSKYs are Super HYper dogs that need LOTS of room to roam for their health.

Just thought I'd quash a misconception about great danes that the majority of people have. Believe me,,,if you have an apartment and want a dog...a great dane is the best to get. They poop like elephants, but theyre great, low maintenance dogs. They are also short lived (about 10-14 years max)due to their size. But once you have one, you fall in love with it.
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Raf

1.2 Jacksons Adults (Frank, Patty, Lucille)
0.0.1 Jackson's baby (George, R.I.P. 11/17/2003)
1.1 Nosy Be's (Mars and Roja)
1.1 Veiled - No Names Yet
0.1 Adult Sulcatta (POOPIE,I bought it from Victor at Kobey's in SD)
0.0.2 Baby Sulcattas (frick and frack)
1.0 Home's Hingeback Tortoise (SPEEDY, From Victor as well)
1.2 Red ear slider babies (Hingis, Dingis and Dorkus)
0.0.1 3 toed box turtle - No Name Yet
0.0.1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle - No Name Yet
1.0 Red Siberian Husky (Harley)
0.1 Black Lab (Krissy)
0.1 English Bulldog (Alice)
0.1 Blue Merle Great Dane (Wednesday)
Saltwater Fish and Inverts too

You are right, Raf. I picked Greate Danes because I don't know the first thing about them, outside of them being HUGE.
Poop like elephants....
Now that's funny. Elephant turds in a tiny apartment. Just leave em there and you have furniture.
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi.tripod.com/sdchamkeepers/
gomezvi@yahoo.com

Vic,

Please know that my post was mostly in jest and I did not mean to offend you or anyone else.

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Raf

1.2 Jacksons Adults (Frank, Patty, Lucille)
0.0.1 Jackson's baby (George, R.I.P. 11/17/2003)
1.1 Nosy Be's (Mars and Roja)
1.1 Veiled - No Names Yet
0.1 Adult Sulcatta (POOPIE,I bought it from Victor at Kobey's in SD)
0.0.2 Baby Sulcattas (frick and frack)
1.0 Home's Hingeback Tortoise (SPEEDY, From Victor as well)
1.2 Red ear slider babies (Hingis, Dingis and Dorkus)
0.0.1 3 toed box turtle - No Name Yet
0.0.1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle - No Name Yet
1.0 Red Siberian Husky (Harley)
0.1 Black Lab (Krissy)
0.1 English Bulldog (Alice)
0.1 Blue Merle Great Dane (Wednesday)
Saltwater Fish and Inverts too

>>You are right, Raf. I picked Greate Danes because I don't know the first thing about them, outside of them being HUGE.
>>Poop like elephants....
>>Now that's funny. Elephant turds in a tiny apartment. Just leave em there and you have furniture.
>>-----
>>Victor Gomez
>>gomezvi.tripod.com/sdchamkeepers/
>>gomezvi@yahoo.com
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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 green anoles Jaida & Jetta
0.1 brown anole - Jamaica
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta

yeah, my inlaws had a siberian husky years ago, that they had to give away. they have 9 acres. It wasn't enough. She would go up to cars, people would think she was lost, and she'd hop right in and go with them. she was so beautiful, that sometimes, despite the tag that clearly showed her adress, people would keep her. She was "kept" by about 2-3 different people at different times. She was always running away, jumping fences, taking off, etc. She would come home , unless, of course, someone decided to keep her. Eventually, my wife's parents had to track her down. They followed leads, and found her cooped up in a single wide in a trailer park, chained inside! After some treats of legal action, she was "dropped off" back home.

They ended up giving her to some guy with around 50 acres, so she could run around like she wanted. But 9 acres WAS NOT ENOUGH. AMazing.

in the same vein regarding sib huskys...

a lot of sibes end up in rescue due to not knowing the traits of the breed. these needs are spelled out VERY clearly when you go to a sibe rescue league...this is not a dog for everyone and has certain demands.
the one that is missed in the prior post is it must have a fenced in yard at least 6 ft tall. it is not cruel to contain them but rather needed because it is a nomadic breed (what good is a sled dog that always wants to go home?) therefore even with 50 acres he will find that boundry line and keep on going.
the post also points out one of their good traits...friendly to a fault, just as friendly to a stranger as his master (not a good watchdog)

scott
fenced in backyard

Yes, they are a very noble breed and are prone to crotch sniffing!!

I am on my 3rd Husky. I've had Huskies as long as I can remember and with one particular male, a 6ft fence was not enough to contain him. He chewed through the fence, got OVER the fence, tunneled UNDER the fence....etc. I finally had to lay cement along the bottom of the fenceline to keep him from digging. Lined the fence with Hardware cloth and installed some inwards facing fencing on top (like what you see at zoos) to keep him in. he gave some awesome looking litters for many years. His name was Sprite (for spirit...not for the drink).

Anyway...Huskies are great people dogs and even when neutered (like my current male is) they still wander when given the chance. They are VERY intelligent but only on their own terms. There is nothing my Harley wont do for a dog cookie but let him be near other dogs and he forgets his name!!
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Raf

1.2 Jacksons Adults (Frank, Patty, Lucille)
0.0.1 Jackson's baby (George, R.I.P. 11/17/2003)
1.1 Nosy Be's (Mars and Roja)
1.1 Veiled - No Names Yet
0.1 Adult Sulcatta (POOPIE,I bought it from Victor at Kobey's in SD)
0.0.2 Baby Sulcattas (frick and frack)
1.0 Home's Hingeback Tortoise (SPEEDY, From Victor as well)
1.2 Red ear slider babies (Hingis, Dingis and Dorkus)
0.0.1 3 toed box turtle - No Name Yet
0.0.1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle - No Name Yet
1.0 Red Siberian Husky (Harley)
0.1 Black Lab (Krissy)
0.1 English Bulldog (Alice)
0.1 Blue Merle Great Dane (Wednesday)
Saltwater Fish and Inverts too

trees. What is a tree "supposed" to look like? If you grow a tree by itself, in the open, it will spread out, develop multiple trunks, and develop a very full look. If it's with other trees, they'll spread out less, but still develop a full anopy. If it's grown in a forest, it might grow straight and tall, with no branches for 30 feet up the trunk, and only have leaves at the crown.

So what IT the "reight" tree, the "true" form?

If we go by chameleons, they are "right" only when they are eating natural food, and their intake is limited by availability. On top of this, their body's uptake of nutrients is hampered by parasites, pushing them to eat more than their body would otherwise require.

They "should" face hardships, cold, heat, humidity shifts, variation in EVERYHTHING.

You can never replicate all of these things, and some we wouldn't want to.

We can use knowledge of these factors to improve the lives of capticve chameleons. An obese, lethargic chameleon in cptivity will still live longer than a wild one. Just as the typical obese "civilized" human will still live longer than the "healthy" bushman, living in the wild.

All the selective forces that are acting on chameleons in the wild serve a purpose. The chameleons are adapted to deal with them. Teh ones that best deal with them live on. Even when deprived(or relieved) of such selective forces, chameleons will continue to live as if they still had to cope. They will eat more, because they are designed to cope with a parasite load. They will drink more, because they are designed to cope with drought(some , not all).

These and other, more subtle things are all ways the animals fit into their niche. If we can minimize the detrimental aspects of the wild in captivity, while at the same time replicating the factors that are benificial to them(food variety, hydration, space & territory, temp.), we're going to have healthier, not just longer-lived chameleons.