Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What is the best substrate for kingsnakes? Is it ok to use sand? or aspen?

Thanks

Use aspen if you can. It holds the burrows of your kings really well.
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Zach Lim
Carnivorous Plant Grower and Herper
http://www.geocities.com/sf_snakes/index.html

Aspen is good. I use sand with bark on top for my babies. Sort of a natural burrowing material. The two problems with substrate are
1. accidental ingestion. This one as far as I'm concerned is a myth. I've never had any problem with this in snakes. Lizards yes.(although only the babies) Snakes no.
2. Yyou will get really sick of cleaning or attempting to clean the substrate. Especially once your snake(s) starts taking huge dumps. This is why I only use the sand/bark mixture for my snakes in their first year. During this time they benefit from the ability to really get hidden.(ie. burrowing) Aafter about a year they are usually calmed down enough to where I just put them on newspaper. Aafter trying to clean waste out of an enclosure full of aspen or bark, it is really nice to be able to just throw away a sheet of newspaper and replace it.

Thanks for the tips. I'm probably going to go with the aspen, but what kind of sand do you use when you use sand?

Use Calci-sand or one of the products like it. It's more expensive than playground sand, but worth the money. If it is accidentally ingested it is digestible. Death from accidental ingestion of sand in baby snakes may be rare, but it CAN happen. Calci-sand can be spot cleaned like regular sand, but it needs to be occasionally completely changed. It's really a good idea to feed them in a separate container if possible anyway. Of course, if you have a lot of animals, time may not allow for this.

The stuff I use is made from crushed walnut.
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International Snakes Meetup

I agree, Aspen is the best. It's very soft and easy on the animals, and good for burrowing. I personally use a mix of aspen and bark for my adults, mostly aspen though. Newpaper is also good, just kinda stark to look at.
But tell me, why is it nobody uses plain old pine bedding anymore? My animals never seemed to suffer any harm on it whatsoever...

>>But tell me, why is it nobody uses plain old pine bedding anymore? My animals never seemed to suffer any harm on it whatsoever...

Some people believe it is toxic, like cedar, to the snakes. While I have never heard any specific scientific evidence to back it up. I have a few snakes on pine now that I have a rack system. (the aspen smells AWFUL comparing to the pine, I've tried both and was gagging in half the time when the mice and snakes were on aspen). For our display cages, the snakes are on bark with a little bit of aspen. They love burrowing in it. I'll be having my hatchlings on paper towels.
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~Sasheena
Ground Snakes
Kit, Kaboodle, Tantilla, Tantillas, Lightning, Kinkee, Maple
JCP
Dreamer
Rosy
Castle
Kings
Licorice, Bishop, Queenie, Jester, Tigris, Euphrates
Pandora, Phantom
Lady
Corns
Aphrodite, Athena, Hermes
Tiger
Amulet

Oh I agree..the aspen does smell nasty compared to the pine, especially when it's soiled. I also keep my babies on paper towels.
I keep my rodents on pine, and they all do well on it. Maybe I'll try putting the snakes back on it, or mixing with the aspen...maybe would help with the godawful smell lol!

"maybe would help with the godawful smell"

That smell is bacteria feeding off of your snakes waste material. We should be providing a substrate for our snakes, not litter. Waste should be removed as soon as possible from an enclosure. Then you don't have to smell it. Just think if you left your own pile steaming in the corner for a few days until you decided to clean it.
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International Snakes Meetup

Just think if you left your own pile steaming in the corner for a few days until you decided to clean it.

Again, I'm just not sure WHY you make the assumption that people are allowing their snakes' cages to fester with waste. Some people DO this, but why ASSUME that people on here do this? It just seems an unfair assumption on your part.
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~Sasheena
Ground Snakes
Kit, Kaboodle, Tantilla, Tantillas, Lightning, Kinkee, Maple
JCP
Dreamer
Rosy
Castle
Kings
Licorice, Bishop, Queenie, Jester, Tigris, Euphrates
Pandora, Phantom
Lady
Corns
Aphrodite, Athena, Hermes
Tiger
Amulet

I agree....and I take offense. I check my snake enclosures daily for waste, and generally remove it as soon as I find any. Besides, I can walk into my snake room and smell a fresh poop...on these occasions the usual question out of my mouth is 'Allright..whodunnit?', lol.

I have no idea if pine is toxic in the life-threatening sense, but I did have garter snakes who's bellies got pink from pine. And yes, it was the pine; switching to another substrate got rid of the pink after a couple sheds.

Toxic or no, it definitely isn't a good choice given that you can manage with aspen. Get yourself some Arm & Hammer and a good fan, the slight smell remaining is IMO worth knowing that your snakes are on something safe.

>>Toxic or no, it definitely isn't a good choice given that you can manage with aspen. Get yourself some Arm & Hammer and a good fan, the slight smell remaining is IMO worth knowing that your snakes are on something safe.

Well if I hear something definitive (or see some serious problem/change in my animals that just switched from bark to pine) I'll change, but since the snakes seem to be just fine on pine, with no ill effects, I can't imagine switching to something that is less effective (perhaps I'm allergic to it, because soiled aspen smell makes me nauseas ]sp[ and I can't STAND the smell, as in it makes me ill). Got a good fan, got the arm & hammer, got all it takes. If the pine hurts or even thinks of hurting the snakes, I guess it's newspaper.

Again, the pine being bad is a matter of opinion. I appreciate your sharing your experience with your snakes, instead of just saying "it's bad". I'll keep an eye open for that. At the moment I have only a few snakes that are on pine, and I don't think it will increase, and will probably decrease.
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~Sasheena
Ground Snakes
Kit, Kaboodle, Tantilla, Tantillas, Lightning, Kinkee, Maple
JCP
Dreamer
Rosy
Castle
Kings
Licorice, Bishop, Queenie, Jester, Tigris, Euphrates
Pandora, Phantom
Lady
Corns
Aphrodite, Athena, Hermes
Tiger
Amulet

Well I only have one snake and she's on pine. I bought her at East Bay Vivarium and they keep ALL their snakes on pine, and I don't think they even sell aspen. I should ask them why they don't. Anyway, all their snakes seem to be fine and they have tons of snakes and other little critters.

"Anyway, all their snakes seem to be fine and they have tons of snakes and other little critters."

I've been smoking cigarettes for over ten years and I seem to be fine too.
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International Snakes Meetup

Just want to reiterate that you wouldn't have to worry about what soiled aspen smells like (and neither would your snake) if you remove the waste instead of letting it fester.
On using pine shavings: Pine and cedar oils evaporate to form toxic fumes. That's why they smell so nice. Unfortunately it causes permanent lung damage to whatever is forced to breath concentrated amounts. Mammals and reptiles. This is a fact.
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International Snakes Meetup

>>Just want to reiterate that you wouldn't have to worry about what soiled aspen smells like (and neither would your snake) if you remove the waste instead of letting it fester.

Okay, first things first. I changed all my animals to aspen. Within 30 minutes the smell was making me physically ill. Now I don't know how you do it, getting the waste out instantaneously but I actually do have some lag time. It might take me an hour, and even sometimes a day. To my way of thinking, this is NOT allowing waste to fester. I really don't see how you assume I allow the waste to fester. Bottom line to me, aspen animal feces animal urine = allergic reaction of mammoth proportions.

YES I do know that there are other substrate options than Pine and Aspen. I will have hatchlings on clean paper towels changed daily. I have most of the display snakes in my zoo on bark, except for the ground snakes who are in a cage with pure arizona dirt.

>>On using pine shavings: Pine and cedar oils evaporate to form toxic fumes. That's why they smell so nice. Unfortunately it causes permanent lung damage to whatever is forced to breath concentrated amounts. Mammals and reptiles. This is a fact.

Okie dokie, so it's a fact. I have no argument about cedar. No need to prove it to me, no need to even go there. It's been proven about cedar, (not that I was ever tempted) and I have no argument with the validity of that claim. HOWEVER, you have stated that it is a fact. Can you back that claim up with anecdotal evidence (helpful) and with scientific evidence? (if it's a scientific paper I'll read it start to finish. Gotta love them scientific papers with R-values and P-values... I have a degree in statistics. Love reading research papers).

You see I have a real problem with the statement that it is a fact when absolutely NO evidence is provided other than the statement. In cases like those I'm forced to learn for myself. There are things I've been told and I've tested what I've been told to learn for myself the fact of the matter.
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~Sasheena
Ground Snakes
Kit, Kaboodle, Tantilla, Tantillas, Lightning, Kinkee, Maple
JCP
Dreamer
Rosy
Castle
Kings
Licorice, Bishop, Queenie, Jester, Tigris, Euphrates
Pandora, Phantom
Lady
Corns
Aphrodite, Athena, Hermes
Tiger
Amulet

The fact I'm asking for scientific evidence regarding, is about PINE As I re-read my last post I saw that I was not clear.

Also, Kingsnake.com seems to not allow people to use the PLUS symbol. in the other post I wrote that:

Aspen plus animal feces plus animal urine = allergic reaction.
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~Sasheena
Ground Snakes
Kit, Kaboodle, Tantilla, Tantillas, Lightning, Kinkee, Maple
JCP
Dreamer
Rosy
Castle
Kings
Licorice, Bishop, Queenie, Jester, Tigris, Euphrates
Pandora, Phantom
Lady
Corns
Aphrodite, Athena, Hermes
Tiger
Amulet

Go to these links..scientific studies on the toxicity of Pine and Cedar shavings.

http://search.msn.com/results.asp?RS=CHECKED&FORM=MSNH&v=1&q=Pine shavings

http://www.trifl.org/cedar.shtml

http://www.afrma.com/rminfo2.htm

Those three should be enough to get you started....

I read through the one at the ferret site for hte first time, had already read the one at the RMFE site.

Problem is that they use a lot of big words, but they don't really back it up with research. They just SAY it's bad, but mostly the only real evidence they provide proves that Cedar is bad. (and I knew that already).

I would love to read about a study, how they set it up, how they planned to determine if pine was bad, what they did, what their results were, what scientific methods they used, what was their statistical results, etc etc etc.

Thank you very much for showing me links though, that has a lot more weight than just "Pine is bad, it's a fact" which is not good enough for me.
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~Sasheena
Ground Snakes
Kit, Kaboodle, Tantilla, Tantillas, Lightning, Kinkee, Maple
JCP
Dreamer
Rosy
Castle
Kings
Licorice, Bishop, Queenie, Jester, Tigris, Euphrates
Pandora, Phantom
Lady
Corns
Aphrodite, Athena, Hermes
Tiger
Amulet

and I am notorious for making people back up what they say with some sort of evidence. However, sometimes evidence or proven data from one thing can carry enough relational evidence to be convincing to me. I don't ask for data just to be asking for data and making people prove their point. Some things are self-evident enough to me that I don't need to go searching for clinical data to support it. For instance, if someone tells me that a Black Rat Snake will eat a baby bird out of a nest, then I would accept data that shows a Gray Rat Snake eating baby birds as acceptable evidence that this is probably true. In the case of the soft wood shavings, the fact that cedar has been proven to be harmful to animals because of the phenols it contains, is good enough for me because I know that Pine contains the same oils and compounds (although in lesser concentrations). Considering the fact that they are closely related trees and both contain these oils and compounds, and it's the oils and compounds that cause the problems, I choose not to use either one. I'm not going to put my animals at risk just to prove whether pine is less toxic than cedar.

Thank you for your reply. I don't use pine in very many of my cages, and never will use it in more than those few cages at the moment. I also appreciate what you have to say about the linkage of the evidence. Perhaps it's a few too many of hte ones who will crawl all over you for not doing things their way, without a shred of evidence to back them up. Makes me contrary. I've had to learn a lot of things for myself. And I will continue to do so. But your response has been by far the most convincing as it was couched in adult terms and without condemnatory words.

Thanks again.

~Sasheena
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~Sasheena
Ground Snakes
Kit, Kaboodle, Tantilla, Tantillas, Lightning, Kinkee, Maple
JCP
Dreamer
Rosy
Castle
Kings
Licorice, Bishop, Queenie, Jester, Tigris, Euphrates
Pandora, Phantom
Lady
Corns
Aphrodite, Athena, Hermes
Tiger
Amulet

That's what this forum is for..sharing information. And...it's good to see people starting in the hobby (relatively speaking, of course) and taking the time and expending the effort to learn, and showing a genuine interest in what's best for their animals.

Your right. I shouldn't have stated that it was a fact. Although I believe it to be, I really don't have any concrete. And I don't mean to say that you don't keep your enclosures clean. I misunderstoos that you were reacting to these smells so quickly. Sorry
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International Snakes Meetup

of several reasons, like its absorbancy, lack of odor as far as I can tell, great for burrowing, and others. I started with pine and cedar, but got rid of the cedar right away..way strong odor and chemical release. After several years I found I was developing allergies to pine. It does have an odor for me, and I'm afraid the snakes could pick up some chemicals from it.

BTW, I use the "shredded" aspen, which the snakes do very well on. I also spray the surface occasionally for added humidity, and it dries out within a day, with no molding or odor. Aspen is only bad when it's green. Make sure it has had the chance to dry out thoroughly before using. I use Aspen Bed I, from American Excelsior Company.

PS: I also use paper towelling and newspaper in the hide boxes, and occasionally use sphagnum moss as bedding and for other occasions.

Pine and cedar contain oils that can cause respiratory problems in snakes. Simple as that. Pine doesn't have as much of it as cedar, but it's there in untreated pine. Some pine shavings that you can buy commercially as bedding/substrate material have been treated to get rid of most of that oil and pine bark probably doesn't contain as much of it as untreated pine shavings. The respiratory problems that snakes are likey to develop from using these materials don't appear overnight. They show up as mysterious respiratory problems that seem to defy analysis and are slow to clear up once the animal is put on more suitable substrate. This little wrinkle tends to lead people to beleive that the shavings weren't the problem after all, because they have had the animal on something else for a month or so and still have respiratory problems.

...but I was being a little cautious. BTW, I've had my snakes on shredded aspen for about eight years now, with no problems for them or myself

n/m
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Mark

The biggest problem i have with aspen is that it seems to cause my guy(and gal) to have problems sheding. They do best for me on reptibark. The male has always had problems sheding until I put him on the reptibark. He now sheds in one piece with no problem.