Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I do not understand why people have a problem selling mice or rats to someone who will feed them to another animal. I understand not wanting to sell a personal pet for such use, but a lot of these people produce to sell them as pets. They are sending them out there to be bought by anyone. I know that the mice I get to feed to my pets live a very good life until they are killed. I feed them well, I give them good housing, I make sure that they have stuff to do, and they always have another mouse to play with.

I m not proud of this but when I was about 7 I got a mouse and it died pretty quickly from improper care. Not only was its care inadequate but it was alone for much of the time except when I played with it, which was not that often.

Everything that I have read says that rodents should be housed with another so that they have company and are less likely to become bored. All the pet stores around me, who do not sell feeder mice, will sell a single mouse to anyone over 18. I know that many of the people who buy a mouse at a pet store are buying it for a child, and many times they are only buying one. The rodents get played with for about two weeks and then live out the rest of their lives huddled in the corner with nothing to do.

The thing that I really do not get is that many of these people seem to not want any rodents eaten by snakes. What is the difference between my eating a burger and my snake eating a mouse. Do they have no empathy for my snake, do they not care if it lives or dies. What should I do as a snake owner.

I do not mistreat any rodents, I do not take any pleasure killing them, I do not live feed, I even feel bad when I have to kill a litter of pinkies for my baby corns. And yet on many of the mice forums, that have very good information that I use to make my mice’s lives better, everyone thinks what I am doing is pure evil.

I am just wondering what people think about the subject, if someone could explain why they are so adamant on the subject I would appreciate it.

Thank you

MrBFrog
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0.0.1 Common Columbian Boa (Damian)
0.0.1 Amel Cornsnake (Kernal)
0.0.1 Okeetee Cornsnake (Guido)
1.1.0 Lhasa Apso's (Monkey, Tiffany)
1.0.0 Rat Terrier (Ricky)
1.3.0 Mice (nameless)
0.0.4 Goldfish (nameless)
0.1.0 Beta Fish (nameless)
0.0.1 Snail (Gary)"Meoow"

Also Canibal the Musical is just about the the most funny movie ever!!!

Perhaps special interest groups like PETA are making the big wheels make bad choices like that. Perhaps wives or "significant others" pressure their life mate to make these lame choices.

That is the only explanation that I could come up with.

That company isn't practicing good economics, turning down customers that are willing to pay asking price for an object in stock, instead turning them to competitors, but they are still in business.

Local store to me "Petsmart" denied selling a mouse and a rat on different occasions to me when I was 17yo, and then once when I was 18 with a rat because I told the truth that I was breeding them, and then said for snakes.

One thing I have learned in non Herp. friendly local pet stores is to not say "One Large Female rat please". Rather, ask for a "Pet Rat", and then when they are going through the bin, look at the one they pick out for you and say ye or ne based on what you need, that way they are not suspicous of your motives.

Other stores ask where the mouse is going and say "Cool, I like watching snakes eat!", but I go wherever is closest at the time I need something.

Good Luck,
Jon

Lets look at this from a social perspective. Most people like things that are cute and cuddly... and even if they don't like mice and rats they tend to think its wrong to use them as food for a snake.. Why? Because everyone who doesn't own a snake or lizard is biased against them. Snakes are the villians.. the cold blooded killers because people can't visually or mentally empathise with them... they can't understand the snake's world where they can understand a mouse or rats. Its another warm blooded animal... you can visually see its "emotions" easier.
Most people watch the discovery channel and see a lion kill a zebra and say "Ohh poor Zebra.. the nasty lions killed it" they do that with any predator because everyone is so far removed from the kill and eat process now. We go into the store and buy ourselves a nice packaged piece of meat.. and people don't think of where that comes from and of the cows that were happily roaming the pasture a couple weeks ago. They're oblivious.

My stance. Everything has a right to eat, live and breath. But...some animals are food for others... thats what they've always been and will probably always be. It doesn't make it right or wrong to kill them.. it just makes it what nature intended.
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Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
2.2 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 1 het Blizzard (Lilith) and 1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
5 Gerbils
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
2 cats (Sahara and Hercules)

Reptiles have always been cast in a bad light by most western civilizations and the average person can't understand why somebody would want a snake or lizard as a pet. They quote things like you can't take it for a walk or cuddy up with it in bed yet these same people would be happy if you had pet fish. You certainly can't take fish for a walk (well unless you have it attached to fishing line) or cuddle in bed with it.

Mice and rats are on the bottom of the food chain, everything that eats meat will eat mice or rats if the opportunity presents itself. I have mice as pets and as breeders for my snake. I have no qualms about killing mice to food to a snake or any other animal. Heck, sometimes I will toss in a mouse for my rats to eat.

My recommendation to petstores who don't carry frozen mice/rats for feeding to reptiles or who don't sell reptiles at all, don't tell them why you want 3 female mice and a male. Or better yet, watch the newspaper classifieds for somebody giving away their pet mice. Again, don't tell them you plan on feeding them to a snake...actually, if you plan to breed them then feed off the offspring you can honestly say you do not plan to feed their mice to a reptile.

If somebody complains about you feeding mice or rats to your reptile, ask them if they like chicken or eggs. Most would say they do to both, then tell them your snake just likes mice better than chicken.

Small animal breeders/keepers/lovers are starting to understand it is necessary for small mammals to be food for other people's pets but some are dead set against it. Most people don't realize there is a reason why mice breed so much and have large litters, it's because they are prey for so many different predatorial animals.

The only real thing you can do is explain you do your best to ensure your breeder mice and rats are fed as well as possible, are happy and content with the lives you provide them. Also you humanely euthenize them when time to feed your snake.

I don't know about the rest of you, but ever since PetSmart went Non-feeder, I've always found other options to feeding my snakes.
I have 3 local stores that sell Feeders, and I've been asked a few times to bring one of my snakes in for am in-store feeding, which I usually say no. I don't want them to have a sore tummy.
I buy all my rats at one store, my pinkies at another, and I buy my feeder fish at petsmart (for my snappers). And I always ask the question of, "Why is it okay to sell fish for feeders, and not a rat?" And I know the answer, but I like to hear the explanation. And its never "Rats and mice are incredibly intelligent animals that deserve yadda yadda yadda." Its usually the whole, our company policy is to not sell mice, gerbils and the such as feeder food because of various changes in the outlook of certain groups in soceity. Or the whole, we don't sell feeder food here. (even though thousands of crickets, fish and mealworms are right next to them.)
My rat store had to escort a lady out who was trying to outbid me on the price of my jumbo rats. She actually said she would pay 30 bucks per jumbo to save their lives. I asked what kind of setup she had at home, and she said she had none "but would buy whatever it took to save them", I replied that I had the perfect home for them, and they would be treated well and have everything they needed until their dying day. She finally gave in and I bought them, then as I got into my car, I told her "their dying day is today, and their new home is in my snakes belly" (Yes I know that was mean, but I also think PETA should stand for People for the Eating of Tasty Animals..)

Thanks for reading my rambling thoughts....
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Coastal Carpet Python 0.1
Albino Burm 0.1
Columbian RedTail 0.1
Kenyan Sand Boa 1.0
Common Snapping Turtle 1.1
RES 1.0

Some people just don't get it. It's not like your going through the classifieds looking for the free kittens to good home . I buy my feeders from rodent pro, frozen. My local petstores chage as much as $10.00 for 6 frozen pinks and no less than 1$ per pink. If you find someone to go in with you and split the shipping, I'd order them pre-killed, unless you have a huge requirement. To me, this is no different than feeding tuna to your cat (not that I own one). What do cat owners do when their cat pillages a rabbit's nest? As long as you kill the rodents in a humane way (CO2 for mice), there is really no arguement. I own monitors, and to not feed whole pray is inhumane, as far as I'm concerned. I think that you will find that the same same people who cry "evil" would not to hesitate to set mouse traps if they found mice loose in their house. You really want to tick them off, order something like guinie pigs.
This brings me to another point, I just got a starter colony of hissers. I noticed these are being kept as pets in the insect forum. I wander if they think I'm evil now......who cares.

Just my 2 cents...

0.1 water monitor
0.0.1 argus monitor
1.1 Butterfly agama

The only evil thing is to troll other forums to upset people. I would be upset with someone eating my dog, yet I know people all over the world eat dog. Go figure.

DeMak

I disagree with the policy of refusing costumers rodents as feeders in petstore chains such as petsmart. I realize this is a touchy subject, but ultimately snakes have to eat...and believe it or not those frozen rodents I got at rodentpro were live once lol....I'm just waiting for the day PETA develops the vegetarian snake food haha! I'm sure my ball pythons would love that (sarcastic)....forget rats...don't all snakes need a little soy!
Anyways, I agree with the other posters...don't feel bad bout feeding mice to your animals! And don't believe that a cricket or a goldfish bred as a feeder has any less right to live than a mouse or rat. Just cuz they have hair doesn't make it any different to feed them to something (morally speaking).

I worked at a school as a bio teacher and it is school policy that rats and mice cannot be fed live to any animal. However I am allowed to feed my painted turtle live goldfish. Trust me I've seen a snake eat a live mouse, and I've seen a turtle eat a live fish. It is much nicer watching the mouse get eaten!
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*Amy*
0.1 Green Iguana (yes, I have a lizard in my bathroom)-iggy
2.1 Ball Pythons (normal)-cosi, jake, and frosty mcfry
0.1 B.smithi (mexican redknee tarantula)-athena
0.0.1 midland painted turtle-nemo
1.1 dogs-rocky and skippy
1.0 normal grey cockatiel-opie
0.0.30 betta, guppies, rosy reds, fantail goldfish, clown pleco,...

I don't even own any mouse eaters (still entertaining getting a snake) and in my opinion, these critters are at the low end of the food chain for a reason, their intelligence is to live a little longer so they can live longer. They are in the end, no different than mealworms or crickets or feeder fish that most corporate perstores sell. They all have the right to live and die in a humane way in the end and be well taken cared for in life.

It is natural, and not feeding them this kind of prey would probably get you thrown in jail by the SPCA for malnurishment of your animals.

Just food for though *lol*

Just playing devil advocate. o)
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2.0 Ball Pythons (Kurt the Snake ~ Frosty McFry)
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat (OogieBoogie)
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa (NoFingers McGee)
1.1 Bearded Dragons (Saku ~ GracieJ)
0.0.1 Albino Ornate Pacman Frog (Jabba the Frog)
0.0.1 Ornate Pacman Frog (Hooter)
0.0.1 Emperor Scorpion (Still Thinking)
2.0 House Cats (Bill ~ Ted)

And a partrige in a pear tree...

~!Bearded Dragon Custom Cage Design!~

I would not have a problem with it. I just think that it would not be worth the effort.

I know that my views may be a bit different than many peoples. I do not have a problem with the French eating horses, or the Chinese eating dogs or any other culture eating something that we would consider a pet, or inappropriate to eat. If it were available to me I am quite sure that I would try it, and if I ever travel to France or China I will try it.

I believe in the separation of livestock and pets, but there can be a difference within a species. Just as people raise some rodents as pets and some as feeders. Some dogs are raised to be eaten and others to be pets. I think that to be able to eat a cow, chicken, pig, lamb, fish, deer, turkey, buffalo, duck, rabbit, or any other livestock but not a dog or a horse is hypocritical.

I believe that the only people that can make a statement about eating a living thing being wrong, and not being hypocritical in the process, are vegans, and while I respect their beliefs and what they are doing, I will never be one.

The fact is that we as humans need to consume some animal matter in order to survive. Even a vegan eats animal matter. In grain products there are quite a few incest parts, without the this it would not be possible for someone to sustain themselves on a vegan diet.

Mrbfrog
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0.0.1 Common Columbian Boa (Damian)
0.0.1 Amel Cornsnake (Kernal)
0.0.1 Okeetee Cornsnake (Guido)
1.1.0 Lhasa Apso's (Monkey, Tiffany)
1.0.0 Rat Terrier (Ricky)
1.3.0 Mice (nameless)
0.0.4 Goldfish (nameless)
0.1.0 Beta Fish (nameless)
0.0.1 Snail (Gary)"Meoow"

Also Canibal the Musical is just about the the most funny movie ever!!!

One thing I find very sad is that these "pet people" get upset at feeding mice... and HORRIFIED if they discover that some fancy long haired curly coated satin yellow mouse was in the--HORROR OF HORRORS--feeder bin! The implication here is that it's bad to feed mice, but downright sinful to feed a pretty one. So many of them don't seem to care about your average albino mouse, but make it a fancy mouse, and it's awful.

I've found my snakes like em any color and size... I breed the fancies so I can sell them as pets... and I feed the extras to my snakes, and sell some as feeders too.
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~Sasheena

Same here... I'd have no problem with it.. but feeding off a ball python isn't worth the effort... due to a couple of things. A. chance of parasites. B. If its Captive bred its worth far more than a fresh import and C. Why feed off a ball python when you can acquire corn snakes for much cheaper? Even breed corns as feeders. I know people who do it for their snake eating snakes.. IE King Cobras. Its easier, cheaper and you're certain the snakes your snake is eating don't harbor parasites or other harmful things to your animal. One man's poison is another man's bread and butter... or so the saying goes.
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Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
2.2 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 1 het Blizzard (Lilith) and 1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
5 Gerbils
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
2 cats (Sahara and Hercules)

I bet you could blame it on your parents! (the fact that you grew up evil)-LOL

Rodney