Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,

I was wondering if it is possible to mix D.Auratus, D. Pumilio, D. Leucamelas, and D.Azureus in the same tank. I have a 100 gallon tank, and a 175 gallon tank. Would this be enough space for all of the species to co-exist, or would only a select few co-exist?

Thank you very much
monocledcobra

It can be done but only by the extremely experienced even then they usually dont mix. If I were you I would sell the tanks and get some 20 gallons, so you could actually raise the eggs and maybe sell the babies to pay for all the fruitflies you will need. I consider myself fairly experienced, and I wouldnt even think of mixing becuase of the chance of hybrid frogs, and bullying. Frogs can out compete others for food and the stress from others frogs can kil these delicate animals. Anyways if your going to spend 150 dollars for a single pumilio froglet why take the chance of having them die, and pumilio arent beginner frogs due to there small size(less than an inch when full grown)and there expense, and the fact they usually require a 6 month wait, due to there high demand. And if I was spending all this time setting up food and putting together such a large tank I would like to see the eggs develop into tadpoles and then into frogs. Most begginers should start out with a smaller tank like a 10 gallon or 20 gallon, so they can see if they like keeping darts before they invest hundreds of dollars in animals and supplies. So why dont you set up a 20 gallon high with some leucomelas (3-4 would be comfortable in there), and if you like the hobby get more animals and more elaborate set ups.
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Jacob Pott's collection
As of 1/16/04
1.2.3 Leucomelas (the 3 juveniles are the brightest orange I've seen there almost red, there not from my trio)
1.1.16 Green and Bronze Auratus
0.0.2 Imitators
0.0.1 Vents (more soon)
0.0.2 Nicaraguan Green and Black Auratus
0.0.3 Citronella Tincs
0.0.2 Powder Blue Tincs
0.0.2 Yellow Back Tincs
1.1.0 Surinam Cobalts (extremely soon)

Please do a search on mixing, and read the past posts. This topic has been brought up about 3-4 times in last month or so. Basically it is not a good idea at all!
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

Just something that you may not have considered, but have you ever thought about the cost to set up and maintain a tank that size. I keep a 135 gallon mixed tank, and have to tell you it was not cheap to setup. There is about a grand in plants alone.

If your up for the cost, go for it. As for your suggested mix, probably not. Somebody posted about one of their freinds who set up a display tank with different Tinc morphs, all male I belive. That would be a nice setup in a 100gallon.

Depends who you ask.... some say it's possible with a few considerations (large tank, mostly males, etc), and others say that it's not a good idea. However, it seems that most of the people who say that it's not a good idea, are only saying so because of the "chance" that you will have "hybrids"... not so much that the frogs can't live together.

Hello,
Let me go on record saying mixing frog species is not a good idea because different frogs exhibit different behaviors. Timid frogs would potentially be out competed for food by more aggressive species. That and the potential for diseases as well as other unforeseen problems would sway me from ever mixing. I would argue that a species true personality would never show under such odd circumstances when surrounded by a smorgasbord of random darts. Part of the fun is watching them interact with each other.

In my opinion a tank with a single species is just a striking as a hodgepodge collection. I love watching the interactions of my darts in there homogenous environment. If one prefers to mix, expect disaster. Do a little research and read about the hundreds of hobbyist who have failed attempting to do the same thing. Do not be confused by a handful of ‘success’ stories you read on the internet. Often these people have kept the animals for under a year or are lying completely.

This happens with Central American cichlids constantly. Sure when they are babies things are fine, wait until they get older. With Rift lake fish, people want to mix as many different species of Alonocara together as possible. The result is always the same; a crowded mess with mutt offspring traded into fish stores for credit. Those same animals are past on to first time buyer.

To each his own, do what you want. Personally, I think by offering advice with very little mixing experience is irresponsible. I am not flaming anyone.

Do what you want; I’m not losing any sleep over it.

-Richard
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1.1.4 D. auratus

"However, it seems that most of the people who say that it's not a good idea, are only saying so because of the "chance" that you will have "hybrids"... not so much that the frogs can't live together."

I think you should take this question to frognet... and see what some people who have been in the hobby for over 10 years have to say about it. The anti-hybridization stance is reason enough not to mix.... read Mark Pepper's post back in the original discussion and I think he puts things into clear perspective.
Some of the truly experienced frognetters will not only agree on the hybrid thing.... but they have tried mixing, and they know the species that they keep so well that know better not to unless you have been keeping the frogs for years and really know their behaviour. I think the mix proposed at the start of this thread is incredibly unrealistic..... though I will bet the thread was started by someone who is excited about getting into the hobby and simply wants a nice looking tank... so it is prudent to show some patience, and explain why it not realistic. We can argue till the cows come home about hybridization and why it is wrong on every level.... but that is not the reason alone why people without years (>6 heavy years) should not attempt a mixed tank. Go on frognet and ask about species mixing, and you will get about 100 other reasons why an intermediate keeper should steer clear from mixed tanks, though I think the hybridization possibilities are all that needs to be said.
Double J

"The anti-hybridization stance is reason enough not to mix...."

Says who? Actually, nevermind... I don't want to get into all this again. I think it's safe to say that everyone knows where each person stands on this... some have a real problem with it, and others couldn't care less (like me). It's an ethical question with no factual answers, only opinions about what "should" & "shouldn't" be done.

My point was only that for every person who says not to mix, another person posts of a pic of their gorgeous mixed species tank that they say never gives them any trouble and looks amazing. Have you read the newest Reptiles article? The author is yet another person who mixes w/out problems. Obviously, there are some considerations you have to make, but it is possible.

Also, in answer to the question "CAN you mix species?", the word hybrid should not even come up. The likelyhood or possibility of creating a hybrid, plays absolutely zero role in whether or not these frogs can be sucessfully kept together...

Here is a quick question...

What reasons do you have to believe there are not any other reasons to avoid mixing different species together besides hybridization? I am asking in all seriousness.

I can cite many false pieces of information in Reptiles magazine. Heck, I bet I can find some about GTPs. Anyone of us can find mistakes in all current pet magazines to be honest with you. I would not consider that a credible source. Go to an amphibian convention, consult with large scale breeders. Speak with people who have real experience.

“My point was only that for every person who says not to mix, another person posts of a pic of their gorgeous mixed species tank that they say never gives them any trouble and looks amazing.”

I cannot find any such forum or interest group that has such even distribution as you claim. Again, ask the questions posed earlier: How long has the tank been running? How old are the frogs? What type are they? Can you not find people posting about their failed attempts to keep dart frogs? The reason why is pretty obvious. Most people want to rush into a hobby head first, post a lot of questions and pictures about their tanks. Great! I love every single one! Those same people however would are not willing to waste their time posting each step backwards. I am sure we all have had problems and let downs keeping things. That is expected and more often then not we keep those to ourselves and learn from it.

I have found an overwhelming proportion of people who want to brag about their mixed tanks. They don’t negate the hobbyists quietly enjoying their single species collections. It’s almost like “hey look what I can do; put your 20 years experience away, I’m breaking the rules!” And honestly some mix tanks work. We all scratch our head, but the guidelines are there for a reason. There is no conspiracy against people doing what they want to with their frogs. People post on these forums for two reasons, to get help and to give it. Playing the devils advocate shouldn’t be one of them.

-Richard
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1.1.4 D. auratus

Well put.
Divegod

All of your points are well taken and valid... especially regarding Reptiles mag... lol

I guess the bottom line is that I do not think the issue of crossing or hybridizing plays into whether or not mixing species in the same tank is possible. I mean, say the frogs will beat each other up, say they will intimidate each other, out compete for food, have different requirements, like to interact with their own kind, etc.... these are all factual reasons as to why frogs can't be mixed sucessfully... BUT, 99% of the people who reply to this often asked question, list the hybrid possibilty as one of the top reasons why you can't mix, when really it has nothing to do with the root of the question.

Marcial,

We are mainly stressing the importance (to us)of not hybridizing and seeing that mixing species is a good way for that to occur, we are quick to jump on it when someone gets that wild idea that (that a majority of us are 'guilty' of when we were new to the hobby). Those that post this question are seeking advice and we are giving them just that through our own experiences. I'm in no way against mixing certain species as I have done it in the past with 2 Phyllobates aurotaenia and 2 Dendrobates azureus and saw no visible problems in the way of feeding, territory or breeding...there was no physical contact either and all 4 would eat termites side by side from a dish. Was there an actually unseen stress factor in there? I think yes...but too subtle to hamper them from surviving. I only did this as space was limited yet the 30 gallon viv they were in was plenty roomy for them. I do understand you point here and it does seem that we overly stress the hybrid issue but we do so for a very good cause...a cause that is shared by a vast majority of keepers as a whole. The more we preach, the better it makes us feel and if I've managed to prevent at least one person from mixing species and ultimately preventing them from producing a hybrid, then I feel it is very much worth it for us to continue our 'preaching'.

-Bill J
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Hybrids should not exist. Period. Having a single species setup will completely eliminate any possibility of hybrids whatsoever saving everybody from unending aggravation. On the other hand, if you had a tank with a Phyllobates and a Dendrobates species.. there is no chance of hybridization. Just as there would be no chance of hybrids with a multi species tank containing thumbnail darts and tincs which are both of the genus Dendrobates, with incompatible breeding habits.
But, my point is, that the possibility of inadvertantly (or intentionally) creating hybrids in a multi-species setup is reason enough not to mix. Plus... many of those who ask for advice on this forum are relatively inexperienced with dart frogs... and do not know the species well enough to
a) set the tank up properly to minimize stress
b)know the species well enough to know which species will be less stressed in a mixed tank.
The whole idea of wanting frogs of "all the colors of the rainbow" in the vivarium is franbkly ridiculous to me. What more do you need than a blue frog in a tank? That is enough color for me. If people want a blast of color in their vivaria... try a wider variety of plants such as....
a) some of the fancy neoregelia broms
b) Alocasia amazon with their beautfil purple hues on the bottom of the leaves..
c) wandering jew... which has a fabulous mix of silver, purple and green
d) crotons with thier greens, reds and yellows...
e) fittonia.. with the green leaves and intricate white veining..
For a beginner-intermediate dart frog keeper... a mixed tank is just not worth the hassle. Why worry about inter species aggression when you are messing around with expensive frogs, when you can have a far less worrysome tank with one species. The potential problems far outweigh the benefits of a multi-species tank. Give me one way ion which the frogs themeslves will benefit from such a setup and you will win the arguement. In closing... the anti-hybrid answer is a way to make things easier for everyody, and generally steers people away from making a mistake right off the bat. Still.. I think you should start a discussion along these lines on frognet and see what the response is like.
Double J

There you go again.... throwing your opinion into a factual discussion. Can two different frogs live together? Yes or No? "CAN" they live together.... as in... is it possible for them to successfully live together. Whether or not they might produce hybrid babies is 100%, completely, without a doubt, IRRELEVENT to the question being asked! Period!

I don't enjoy arguing online, frankly I find that it goes nowhere. However, this is an issue that I am undeniably passionate about, and I need to speak my mind and vent.
There is really no point in trying to explain it in any other way. Hybridization is an issue that is a part of species mixing, I don't see how that does not compute. I guess the designer mentality triumphs here, and there is no way to tell you otherwise. Hybrids scare me. The fact that we should not have dart hybrids is not opinion, it is reality. I'll be damned if the hobby that I love beyond explaination is polluted by crossed frogs created out of greed and a God complex. The difference between my opinion and your opinion on hybrids is that yours shows utter contempt for the animals. There is no in between. This is a black and white issue.. there are no grey areas. Many of these species and phases of those species WILL NOT EXIST in nature in 10 years. It is our duty as dart frog keepers to preserve these animals as close as we can to what nature intended. Period.
If you want a tank with all the pretty colors or the rainbow... get a reef tank set up. If you want to create bizarre unnatural animals.. stick with corn snakes... or better yet, just mix paint. I don't see why there is such a mission to create a "prettier" frog here. They are fine the way evolution made them.. why change it?
I'm done with this discussion. All that needs to be said has been.
Double J

Good post, it explained the whole hybrid issue, isn't evrybody else getting frustrated with all the hybrid posts?
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Jacob Pott's collection
As of 1/16/04
1.2.3 Leucomelas (the 3 juveniles are the brightest orange I've seen there almost red, there not from my trio)
1.1.16 Green and Bronze Auratus
0.0.2 Imitators
0.0.1 Vents (more soon)
0.0.2 Nicaraguan Green and Black Auratus
0.0.3 Citronella Tincs
0.0.2 Powder Blue Tincs
0.0.2 Yellow Back Tincs
1.1.0 Surinam Cobalts (extremely soon)

I agree and understand the points you have made concerning “hybrids” or creating new morphs.

You are right; hybridization has nothing to do with different species requirements. The main focus for every hobbyist should be the health of their animals. I believe everyone here can agree to that. As you stated earlier these are not natural setting by any means. A terrarium is as far from nature as the frogs can be. That being understood we strive to put the least amount of stress on an animal as possible. With reptiles and amphibians identifying signs of stress can be difficult and only the most trained can successfully diagnose exotic species. Dart frogs, on a most micro level when compared to a large iguana and snake species pose even more of a challenge. Often our little friends can slip away without the slightest warning. The rule of not mixing species minimizes the invisible stress these animal display.

Now, onto the beaten issue of hybrids and man made morphs.

I consider myself an educated consumer. I am confident enough that I would not mistakenly purchase a hybrid animal without knowing it. That being said, I am not 100% certain that I haven’t purchased one in the past or won’t in the future at least not intentionally. First time buyers could mistakenly buy what they thought was a powder blue tinc or any other tinc and have it turn out to be a mix. Most tinc froglets are similar in coloration and certainly shape.

I like your enthusiasm for dart frogs Marcial. I even like that you personally want to own the prettiest frogs possible. That is normal and I think we all do, but where does the line get drawn? This is the vicious cycle:

1. Say you and I find two of the most beautiful tincs of the same color morph and breed them in line to develop their traits. We create the perfect powder blue tinc flawless in every way…

This is already happening now. Bigger and brighter frogs are more attractive and at shows they are more likely to be purchased.

2. The next step (where I believe you stand) is to take tincs and mix them together making a new color morph. This has already happened as well. Most of us can understand that desire to have a frog no one else has.

Now the hypothetical problems begin. Let’s say these frogs are just so astonishing that everyone has to have them…a sellers dream. Soon breeders all breed this ‘cash animal’ and we begin to see fewer and fewer natural morphs being offered. That may be fine to the common hobbyist or first time buyer, but what happens to the advanced collector?

As time passes a new trend catches on. This trend is to keep only natural species as mundane as they may be. But wait! Those previously common inhabitants are now harder to find. The prices certainly have increased for these animals so we look to the rain forests to import frogs and reestablish breeding colonies. But wait! They no longer exist or are so protected we can’t get our hands on them. Prices still climb. So now what do breeders do? The demand for the mutts has plummeted and in response they pass them off as the real deal. These mutts are unknowingly bred back to the originals. And so the slippery slope continues.

Is it ridiculous? Maybe, but it happened in the cichlid market. No one I know has a true “Green Terror” the fish has been replaced with ‘Gold Saum’ species. But we still call them green terrors. Flowerhorns and other hybrid species have crowded dealers tanks to the point where I challenge one to find a natural Oscar. We are bombarded with “Tiger, Albino, Red, etc, Oscars.” The once popular Madagascar cichlids are nearly extinct. Cichlids from lake Victoria which could be found in fish stores five years ago and now not found anywhere on the planet. I can honestly imagine this happening to dart frogs.

Fortunately due to the delicateness and higher starting cost maybe it won’t. I like that not everyone owns these creatures. Can me a snob, but I don’t brag about my leopard geckos for a reason. (Not to knock leos!!)

-Richard
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1.1.4 D. auratus

Just a few questions for you....

1) Don't you think that man creating the perfect Powder Blue tinc is on the same level with a "desinger" frankenfrog? I mean, you don't find perfect powder blues in nature, do you?

2) Why is it that most of the anti-hybrid people do not think twice about using hybrid plants? Don't all of the same issues apply?

What do you mean by perfect powderblue? All of the ones I seen look the same, which is a attractive large dart frog. Marcial just face it hybrids are not a good idea, and nobody should make hybrids due to the already small gene pool of our little rainforest jewels. Personally alot of people wouldnt buy a hybrid due to the large amount of different colored natural frogs, and if somebody did buy it they certainly wouldn't pay as much as a natural dart frog. And they would probably be a 10 year old who has extra money from christmas who hasn't done there homework on there dart frogs, and they would probably soon die. Pretty much all experienced keepers stay away from the hybrids. Would you seriously want all the morphs like cornsnakes the morphs prices are high for awhile then a few years later you can buy them for 20 bucks from anybody.
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Jacob Pott's collection
As of 1/16/04
1.2.3 Leucomelas (the 3 juveniles are the brightest orange I've seen there almost red, there not from my trio)
1.1.16 Green and Bronze Auratus
0.0.2 Imitators
0.0.1 Vents (more soon)
0.0.2 Nicaraguan Green and Black Auratus
0.0.3 Citronella Tincs
0.0.2 Powder Blue Tincs
0.0.2 Yellow Back Tincs
1.1.0 Surinam Cobalts (extremely soon)

Okay, put the hybridization issue aside. Since you keep insisting on facts, let's here some of your own. Please tell us, what are the benefits for the animals concerned? If mixing is strictly for your own pleasure with no regard for the animals then read no further. You'd simply be wasting both of our time.

Do you even know(experience, observation) the natural history, behavior and habits of any dendrobates well enough to say that you can mix them with no problems? Do you know anything about their micro-habitats or for that matter, locality? Did you know that pumilio are quite aggressive? And if you did, based on your expert opinion, what would you mix with them?

Your GTP experience has no relativity here. That would be like me saying "because I have alot of dart frog experience, I know how to raise and breed polar bears and I think I'll put them in a cage with some grizzlies". That's ridiculous!

Here's my opinion - everything I just wrote is a waste of time because you have no intention of listening to any of us. I said it earlier this month and I'll say it again - you're just trying to stir the pot. I think devils advocate was mentioned in this thread ....

I don't care whether you mix or not, just quit trying to get everyone all worked up about something you know absolutely nothing about.

When you truly want to hear the facts, email a few of us off forum. I'll be glad to debate this privately.

Donn Edwards

(yeah, that's my name. I don't hide behind the anonymity of the internet)

"If mixing is strictly for your own pleasure with no regard for the animals then read no further."

Wow, that is a really interesting question... so I guess you keeping your frogs in a glass cage is for their benefit? lol

I have never once claimed to be an expert, nor have I implied that my experience with any other species had any relevence to this discussion.

I am just stating my opinion. Agree with it or don't, I don't care. But when someone asks for opinions on the issue, I will tell them mine.

You do not know the definition of the word fact.

Marcial M. Mendez
(real name, feel free to look me up)

First, I would like to thank Donn for a wonderful post. Now Marcial, if you truly want to discuss your opinions on hybridization, mixing etc etc.... I dare you to discuss your views on frognet. Then you will get some input from the elite frogkeepers of the world. Let's see what biologists, zoo-keepers, and other members of the intellectual elite have to say about this pro-hybrid stance of yours. If you can hold your own in a discussion on the subject with them, I will eat my hat.
The gauntlet has been dropped.
I look forward to watching the discussion on frognet.
Double J

I never said I was pro hybrid in this debate.

All I have been trying to say this whole time is that the possibility of creating hybrids is not relevent to whether or not it is possible to keep a mixed species tank.

I don't need the frog elite or anyone else to tell me that I am right. It is a black & white issue.

"I never said I was pro-hybrid in this debate"

Interesting... here is what you said in a earlier debate though...

" I consider myself a very advanced hobbyist, and can tell you that "preserving the natural lines" is of little interest to me."

Oh, you also said...

" I want crazy looking animals, whether they would actually occur in nature that way or not (although I am 100% positive that integration occurs where these morph ranges overlap). If mixing localities produces an unreal looking frog, I am all for it."

Let's be realistic here. You may not have said it directly in this thread.. though your opinion did shine through clearly in your few posts. But I seem to remember that when I said "hybrids should not exist"...... you replied with
"that is only your opinion"
You never advocated hybridization in this thread?... seems to me like you did.
You have completely missed my point..or have chosen to ignore based on your ideas.... which has been from the start that the easiest way to prevent hybrids is to not mix in the first place. Simple. Done. Many beginners also want to breed their frogs.. as they are excited about all aspects of the husbandry. Therefore, bringing up hybrids in a discussion about mixing frogs is so pertinent. Often... they do not realize the consequences of producing hybrids... and this helps them to take a step in the right direction and preventing them from making two mistakes from the get-go. That is why we tell beginners who want a mixed tank not to do so... it makes life easier for everyone. But, since hybrids (and yes... I also mean crossing tinc morphs which is still a hybrid... though we can get into that later if you like) are clearly on your "to do" list..... you either chose to ignore, or just didn't get the point that I and others were trying to make.
You still haven't taken my challenge to bring your views to frognet. If you were so confident that your pro-crossing stance was "the right one," then I don't see why you wouldn't bring it up on frognet.

I am not about to go on frognet & start trouble just for the sake of starting trouble. If the issue ever comes up, I will state my opinions just like I have here.

Do you even know the definition of the word hybrid? I suggest you look it up. If you were to cross tinc morphs, you would have just that... a CROSS. NOT A HYBRID. Period. If you think otherwise, you have no idea what you're talking about. The scientific world does not change it's definitions for frog people... sorry.... the same rules apply. SO, until science reclassifies each and every tinc morph as a distinct SPECIES (even sub-species crosses are not hybrids), you can cross them all you want & you will never make a hybrid.... that's a fact jack. If you argue with me on this, you are arguing for the sake of arguing, because you are dead wrong.

Fine... I admit that hybrid is not the proper term used to describe what are really crosses... though in this setting some tend to use the term synonymously... and though I realize that hybrid is not the correct term for tinc phase crosses... I used the term hybrid out of mere convenience. But, since you wish to knitpick... I will clarify in my further posts.
Double J

"which has been from the start that the easiest way to prevent hybrids is to not mix in the first place. Simple. Done."

Ok. Fine. Great. I agree with you. But that statement is not relevent to the question of whether or not it is possible to mix species. How many times do I have to repeat that? Are you arguing just to argue, or are you really that dense that you can't separate one issue from the other?

Dense? No, I would call myself passionate, and without contempt.
It seems you have answered your own question in the last post with how crosses AND hybrids pertain to mixed species tanks, and why or why they should not be done. But since crosses and/or hybrids are not part of your ethical no-no list.. I suppose that idea could slip through the cracks if you really wanted it to.
Double J

When I went to post this originally it became a new thread. No clue why. Here is your response.

1) That is a gray area and a great question. I don't claim to have all the answers and I can see the exact point you are making. I was merely outlining what is already happening. Already we see “sky blue azureus” and “small spot luecs.” It is unclear if these frogs are collected as is in the wild or have been line bred. The distinction between bringing out the best possible colors of a single morph and creating a morph yourself exists but only to a small degree. I am fine with breeding healthier (and often more colorful) stock. This is done by selecting the two healthiest specimens. Potentially this could happen in nature. Idealistically one is speeding up natural selection. By taking two separate tinc morphs and breeding them one is changing evolution, not speeding it up. Of course this is only my opinion. In nature, even two bordering species will not mate regularly. They physically may be able to mate, but with multiple suitors in the wild each sex will breed with the best possible partner. In a terrarium the pair will form only out of lack of options.

2) Another excellent point. I cannot argue this for certain, I am not aware of other people’s thoughts on plant crosses. I do know however when I order plants they are clearly marked as crosses. I would have less of a problem is all crossed dart frogs were labeled as what they really were. Not many people I know buy unlabeled broms.

A possible wacky theory: Maybe people have a problem with crosses when things are easier to breed? Example: We all desire pure bred dogs. Anyone can breed a mutt. Right? Yet all dog species were created by someone breeding specific desirable traits. People are proud of their “pure” dogs!
This is less of an issue with fish and other animals which breed with less ease in the home. Finally we come to plants. I have no desire to cross pollinate bromeliads or any idea how I would do it. Hmm… re-reading that I am not exactly sure how solid that argument is. Haha. Try to see my point. You do make a great point.

Theory two: Plants could also be in distinct category. It is possible in the plant keeping hobby's goal is to create bizarre crosses? This is not the case for most of us in the dart hobby. Perhaps there are plant keepers against crosses?

I don’t cry about the hybrid corn we eat, well most of us eat. But the trend now is to keep things “natural”. Natural food stores, medicine, etc. Things are not being sold as how big and juicy they are, but how natural they are. Maybe it’s all a trend?!? Haha.

Man, my theories are weak at best...

-Richard
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1.1.4 D. auratus

And to all of this (Which I think was a waste of time since no one is going to change what Marcial thinks no matter how many times we tell them crossing frogs is just WRONG)what do you (I forgot your name) Monocledcobra??? think about the issue what are you doing with your tank????