Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know I'm way behind the times on this one, but anyway...If anyone (else) out there feels the need for further Herp sites, try cnah.org...I found it about 6 months ago or so...It will keep you going for DAYS....

Scientific in scope mostly, but still an incredible site for the average herp enthusiast...And it is growing each time I look at it!!

I just figured out today that "Elaphe" in the US and Canada is now "Pantherophis"...Or at least proposed to be.. Seems late in 2002 a Russian scientist did DNA studies and showed that our Ratsnakes are DNA different from the Old World Elaphe...

A new cornsnake species "slowinskii" found in the TX/LA/?ARK triangle led me to the site months ago...Can you imagine that? A NEW SPECIES in the US!!! Who knows what lurks beyond our borders!!! A "Burgandy" Cribo certainly can't be much of a stretch!!

Just off work today and felt like "sharing" Cum-by-ya anyone?
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

The "new" cornsnake is nothing more than the old kisatche color pattern reclassified as a subspecies. Not many herpetologists/taxonomists agree with that separation.

Otherwise, it is a pretty good site.

Van

What I've seen is that the proposal is to reclassify Elaphe guttata into three different species, Elaphe guttata, Elaphe emoryi, and Elaphe slowenski. This not withstanding of the proposed reclassification of the genera to Pantherophis.

I have no idea what a "kisatche" color phase is...The picture on the CNAH website is certainly different from any cornsnake I've ever seen from THE WILD...Not being a herpetological scholar, I cannot dispute or prove the author's conclusions...It seems to me that "slowenskii" is pretty well accepted in the scientific realm...

Old Herper...The site has a bunch of links..."common" and "Scientific" names and the articles that are cited for reference are also linked...Along with just about anything else you could care to know!!!

I just find it to be an incredible site..CG
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

And that's where I had seen the proposed taxonomic changes.

I was asking the other fellow if he could provide reference to the objections he mentioned by other herpetologists to the proposed taxonomy changes that are referenced in the web site. I haven't seen anyone raise any objections to the changes in the journals and I was interested in seeing them. He mentioned that few herpetologists agree to them, which would indicate that many disagree......

>>And that's where I had seen the proposed taxonomic changes.
>>
>>I was asking the other fellow if he could provide reference to the objections he mentioned by other herpetologists to the proposed taxonomy changes that are referenced in the web site. I haven't seen anyone raise any objections to the changes in the journals and I was interested in seeing them. He mentioned that few herpetologists agree to them, which would indicate that many disagree......

Hold your horses - the description of E. slowinskii has only just come out, and it takes a while for new analyses or interpretations to work their way through the system and into publication. In the scientific literature, amtters like this aren't usually dealt with through readers' letters stating that they disagree. WHat will happen eventually is either that someone will publish new data and analyses whichr efute the interpretation of the previous paper, or the new species will simply be ignored if a majority don't agree with it. Asking for a reference at this stage is a bit preamture.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
Cheers,

Wolfgang
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WW

WW Home

I understand how taxonomy changes work. That's not what I was saying. I was asking the person that posted that there was dissenting opinion to refer me to where he saw those opinions. That's all...I just want to read what the objections are. I was around when Natrix was changed to Nerodia for North America....I've seen plenty of taxonomy changes and I like to read both sides of the issue.

If it's not premature to say that there IS dissenting opinion, then it's certainly not premature to ask what those opinions are. If someone can state that "few herpetologists agree" or "many herpetologists disagree", or something of that nature, then that would indicate to me that they have seen something in print and should be able to provide reference to it. If there is no reference, then I don't consider it a valid point.

If the taxonomy is changed officially, then I don't see how it can be ignored. All the field guides and species lists, all reference to the species in Herp Journal and other related publications will be changed going forward. I'm sure that people will continue to use the old taxonomy unofficially for a while (people, including myself, still refer to Morelia viridis as "Chondropython", but anything official, such as Game and Fish laws would have to be changed to reflect it. In states like Georgia, where those laws recognize sub-species, it will have little effect. In states like Tennessee, where the law is written at the genus level and doesn't recognize species or sub-species, it will have a dramatic effect.

Ignore the last paragraph of my last reply...I misread what you were saying about ignoring the name change if it's not majority approved. For some reason I thought you were saying that even if the name change is accepted, that the Herpetological community would ignore it, which I found very strange coming from you. Now that I read it again, it all makes sense...I'm going to go learn how to read now.....

it does have a lot of problematical taxonomy.

In fact, the site itself used to be the official SSAR web site and that taxonomic list used to be the "official" taxonomy of the SSAR, but problems with certain individuals making unilateral taxonomic decisions led to SSAR moving to another site and creating a new "official" list of North American herps at http://www.herplit.com/SSAR/circulars/HC29/Crother.html
excluding the "offending" individuals.

The new list is flawed of course, but not nearly as badly as the old list.

As for the corn snake issue in east TX and west LA, the jury is still out and there is more data to come on gene flow between these populations and other neighboring populations. They are simply the big dark brown corn snakes that hobbyists have been calling Kisatchie Corns for years (although they are found over a large area, not just near Kisatchie, LA).
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Chris Harrison

There always hes been and probably always will be problems and disagreements with taxonomy and proposed changes and reclassifications "in the works". Funny.....the scientific names were put in place to begin with to "simplify" things. While it works well for the vast majority of cases, there are always going to be dissenting opinions and some people using old taxonomy, some using proposed taxonomy and others using current taxonomy.

It always interesting to me to see the reasoning behind proposed changes and the reasoning behind objecting opinions.

I really don't see how, under the taxonomy rules, a single person could make a unilateral change in the official list. That is supposed to be reviewed and voted on by committee, unless there is some abuse of veto power by one of the higher officers.

At any rate, I would like to the data for both sides of the issue with genus Elaphe/Pantherophis and the reclassification of the species under that genus. That one could have wide ranging legal implications for people in states like Tennessee where they have outlawed keeping of any snake in the genus Elaphe, including Asian Elaphe because of the state protection of Elaphe guttata guttata. If the genus is officially reclassified to Pantherophis, will they rewrite the law to reflect that, then allowing the keeping of things like Elaphe taenura? Or...will they simply include Pantherophis in the list of illegal species? That would mean that there would be no native Elaphe in Tennessee, so they would then be "protecting" a non-native species.

Now I'm really confused about Elaphe/Pantherophis ^_^; ....