Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I got my first hatchling ball not to long ago and was thinking about getting a second. I wanted to know what size cage should I need to house two balls that are around 16 inches. I also wanted to know is there anything I should know about other then to quarintine it.

Since you're asking, I recommend that you decide on the size of the enclosure as if your 2 young pythons are adults. After all, they will grow into whatever you provide now. For a minimum size to house two average size adults, I would say 3 square feet (i.e. around 15 inches by 30 inches). However, most would recommend this for a single adult. Of course, feel free to give them more space.

Also, get your present snake sexed and make sure the next is opposite sex. Might as well attempt a breeding in the future if you're going to have 2 snakes anyway. Hey, it's makes things more fun!

If you believe your present ball to be healthy and are only concerned about the health of the next snake, then simply get a captive bred and hatched baby- won't have to worry about it.

Thanks for the help.

I must disagree with what you've read so far. First off, bp's shouldn't be housed together in the first place. They're not social creatures and putting them in the same cage can cause stress and other problems. If you want two snakes, you should plan on having two cages.

Second off, a three square foot cage for two full grown bp's? That's 6-8 feet of snake stuffed into a 3sq' cage??? I don't think so. A SINGLE adult bp requires at least a 30 gallon long, but there's no way there'd be room to house two of them in any sort of healthy environment. (If you insisted on housing them together, as I know some people do.)

Thirdly, just because a seller claims a snake is CB&B doesn't mean you shouldn't quarantene it. Even CB snakes get exposed to mites and other diseases and it would be foolish not to keep the two separate for a few months. And if you're keeping them separate for that long, why not just keep them that way?

And fourth, (and this is my personal opinion) I think it's irresponsible to breed a pair of snakes just to see what happens, just like it would be to do so with dogs or cats. There's a LOT of responsibility involved in breeding animals, including having proper housing available for ALL the babies, feeding them those first difficult meals, taking them to the vet if they have problems, and finding them good homes.

I don't yet own a ball, but love them to pieces and study them constantly in anticipation of someday having my own collection. I'm sure the more experienced people on this board could step in with better things than I have said, but I couldn't let that other post go by without comment.

Just my nickle's worth...
Judy
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

I bought a snake that was definately no doubt about it CBB and it dropped dead of a very mysterious ailment after 2 weeks. I've never been happier I had a snake quarantined. Don't lose both your snakes because you assumed one to be healthy.
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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

>>I must disagree with what you've read so far. First off, bp's shouldn't be housed together in the first place. They're not social creatures and putting them in the same cage can cause stress and other problems. If you want two snakes, you should plan on having two cages.
>>
>>Second off, a three square foot cage for two full grown bp's? That's 6-8 feet of snake stuffed into a 3sq' cage??? I don't think so. A SINGLE adult bp requires at least a 30 gallon long, but there's no way there'd be room to house two of them in any sort of healthy environment. (If you insisted on housing them together, as I know some people do.)
>>
>>Thirdly, just because a seller claims a snake is CB&B doesn't mean you shouldn't quarantene it. Even CB snakes get exposed to mites and other diseases and it would be foolish not to keep the two separate for a few months. And if you're keeping them separate for that long, why not just keep them that way?
>>
>>And fourth, (and this is my personal opinion) I think it's irresponsible to breed a pair of snakes just to see what happens, just like it would be to do so with dogs or cats. There's a LOT of responsibility involved in breeding animals, including having proper housing available for ALL the babies, feeding them those first difficult meals, taking them to the vet if they have problems, and finding them good homes.
>>
>>I don't yet own a ball, but love them to pieces and study them constantly in anticipation of someday having my own collection. I'm sure the more experienced people on this board could step in with better things than I have said, but I couldn't let that other post go by without comment.
>>
>>Just my nickle's worth...
>>Judy
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>>1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

I sincerely think you should freshen up on your knowledge of ball python care. It sounds as though you may need to do a little more research, especially before you give any advice to others. Check out the caresheets at the sites of the sponsors of this forum and you will learn a lot. You can never learn too much about the care of a living, breathing animal that has no choice but to live the quality of life you provide. Just think about it.

Oh yeah, this is not a bash, it's just a little advice . If you want some help in the right direction email me.
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Rob

I'm a bit cunfused as to what you disagreed with in the previous post?
I'd definately quarantine, no matter what. Even if it's a CBB snake, you have no idea what it may have been in contact with before you got it. I also didn't see any problem with the rest of the post. It provides an alternative point of view, and one that I agreed with more. I'm not saying that's what everyone's view would be, but I think it's good to have other opinions voiced.

I'm a bit cunfused as to what you disagreed with in the previous post?
I'd definately quarantine, no matter what. Even if it's a CBB snake, you have no idea what it may have been in contact with before you got it. I also didn't see any problem with the rest of the post. It provides an alternative point of view, and one that I agreed with more. I'm not saying that's what everyone's view would be, but I think it's good to have other opinions voiced.

I've never had a problem typing that before, then I do it twice in the same post... ???

>>I'm a bit cunfused as to what you disagreed with in the previous post?
>>I'd definately quarantine, no matter what. Even if it's a CBB snake, you have no idea what it may have been in contact with before you got it. I also didn't see any problem with the rest of the post. It provides an alternative point of view, and one that I agreed with more. I'm not saying that's what everyone's view would be, but I think it's good to have other opinions voiced.

I was agreeing with meretseger
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Rob

I don't think I'm making things better here !!

I was initally agreeing with JLC and also meretseger and the advice I was trying to give was supposed to be karm.

After I looked at it I thought there may be some confusion. Sorry about that!
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Rob

To emphasize... 3 square feet for 2 AVERAGE size adult balls IS less than ideal, but is functional nonetheless. However, YES (once again) you should feel free to provided more space with the equivalent floor space of a 55 gallon aquarium much better.

Also, I must disagree in discouraging captive breeding of ball pythons. There are still tens of thousands being imported each year. That considered in addition to the rewards received in captive breeding your snakes, I always advise one to breed their ball pythons if they have the desire. These considerations are apparently subjective in nature, and we will all probably never agree. So I say it's your choice.

Here we see the true advantage of the forum... we can disagree all all can contribute in order to find the best answers. I agree that IT IS BEST to house ball pythons singly (I house all of mine singly). However, I have known others to keep pairs and breed them together long term with no problems. If you wish to do so, then I must say that the likelihood of your running into problems is low. Once again, I believe this to be a matter of choice. You don't HAVE to keep them singly if you don't want to. But if, like myself, you have more than just a couple, then keeping them single becomes much better for management and, therefore, much better for their well being.

As for the quarantine advice... certainly there could be problems in assuming a captive born ball to be healthy, and I concede that my saying "you don't have to worry about it" is NOT ACCURATE. The statement was based upon a statistical consideration. Of the hundreds of captive born snakes that I've kept, I have personally never encountered problems. But, of course, there are no guarantees. So, if you wish to be EXTRA safe, then quarantine all incoming snakes. Then again, even a quarantine period will not guarantee anything.

I understand what you're saying about encouraging captive breeding if it's desired but here's what you posted.

"Also, get your present snake sexed and make sure the next is opposite sex. Might as well attempt a breeding in the future if you're going to have 2 snakes anyway. Hey, it's makes things more fun!"

Don't you think maybe that makes it sound a little too easy? Honestly I don't know everything that's involved in breeding balls but if someone chooses on a whim to breed snakes is there a chance they are getting in over their heads and the babies might just suffer?

Yes, I agree what you said about the forum and I should have questioned your suggestions instead of flat out suggesting you do some more research. You have to understand, though, when you hear someone suggest to possible not quarantine an animal it is a good indication they simply have not done enough research. I've only got one python so I haven't ran into the issue of quarantining but have read story after story of people's collections that have been completely wiped out because of a brand new illness that has popped up out of the middle of nowhere. And these animals were captive bread from reputible breeders who were none the wiser. Sometimes illnesses come from feeders. Sometimes they come from, in regards to different reptiles, vegetables that are fed. That's the main reason for the initial reaction I and I'm betting other people had to your suggestions.

I apologize if I offended you as that was not my intentions and I hope you continue to post your thoughts on care, I agree with you that is how things get better for these animals.
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Rob

To emphasize... 3 square feet for 2 AVERAGE size adult balls IS less than ideal, but is functional nonetheless. However, YES (once again) you should feel free to provided more space with the equivalent floor space of a 55 gallon aquarium much better.

So if someone comes here looking for specific advice, why would you offer something that is "less than ideal?" I'm really just curious about the reasoning. It sounds like saying "It's ok if you can't afford to give your snakes the proper housing, they can survive in anything."

Also, I must disagree in discouraging captive breeding of ball pythons. There are still tens of thousands being imported each year. That considered in addition to the rewards received in captive breeding your snakes, I always advise one to breed their ball pythons if they have the desire. These considerations are apparently subjective in nature, and we will all probably never agree. So I say it's your choice.

I didn't discourage captive breeding at all. I simply disagreed with the cavalier attitude of thinking it's "fun" to throw two snakes together to see if they might make babies. Of course breeding animals can be "fun"...but the responsibility involved goes a lot deeper than the "fun" of seeing what happens. I'm sure you didn't mean it to come across the way it did, but it's my belief that if we're giving advice to people, we need to be careful of what we say.

Breeding animals is something that should be done with a great deal of forethought and planning...not on the fly just because you happen to be buying a second snake of the same species.

Here we see the true advantage of the forum... we can disagree all all can contribute in order to find the best answers.

True enough. I'm sure we wouldn't see half as much good advice as we do if people didn't first see something they disagreed with and had to step in. There ARE different ways of doing things, and getting a wide range of opinions can reveal other options and the pros and cons of each. (Such as whether to house snakes together or feed live prey...)

Best wishes to you and your animals....

Judy
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

Good point. I have to temper my tendency to give husbandry advice on the cuff as my philosophy has been EFFICIENCY ever since I began keeping larger numbers of animals. I actually intend on probing the limits of enclosure size for various reptiles in order to produce reptiles most efficiently. I currently hold the view that the minimum space required for the animals to thermoregulate properly is sufficient. I wish to do this in order to work with as many species as possible and to be in a position to test ideas that can be answered statistically... therefore, I HAVE to have a lot of animals to work with.
Interestingly, I gave the dimensions 15" by 30" for two average adult ball pythons because I actually have a neighbor who raised two hatchlings to adulthood in just such an enclosure. Both were females. One grew to perhaps just under 4 feet, while the other one reached nearly 5 feet in length. When I first saw the enclosure I IMMEDIATELY recommended that he use a larger one. However, he emphasized that they have been there since hatching and are very healthy. Well, the animals were very healthy and beautiful on top of that (especially the larger female - I have yet to see a prettier normal, and I've seen hundreds of balls). Anyway, he loaned this female out for breeding this year and she laid 8 HUGE eggs... so, I think she was very healthy.

All feel free to blast anything I say in whatever manner you feel appropriate as I WILL NOT BE OFFENDED and I can back up any claim that I make. Most likely, if it seems that I have written something crackpottery, then I did not express myself properly and/or something has been assumed that was not actually written. Of course, I may actually write some crackpottery... you never know.

It sounds like another beginning to a confinement operation.
Please give your opinion on this.

Sure, I believe you can have physically healthy animals if they are well taken care of in terms of temps, cleanliness, food, water, overall environment without regards to space. What kind of life do you think that is for the animal, though?

Granted, balls like to have a nice, small, enclosed hide but do you really think they like to never be able to actually move more than a foot at a time, ever? I mean aren't you either forgetting or ignoring that aspect of the animals wellbeing?

Isn't it very, very easy to look at an animals health and if everything physically is ok to completley forget about any other aspect of its life? It seems that's where you're headed.
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Rob

Thought you were saying you agreed 100% with the name in the title and were refering to the writer of the quote as the one who needed to do more research. Sorry!

That's ok!
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Rob