Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Leos in the wild live in areas where there is a layer of very dusty fine sand with rock hard, dry clay packed beneath it. However, locations like this are NOT where they hunt! When leos in the wild hunt they do so either on exposed dry, packed clay, or rocks, and so do not injest the sand when they eat. It's because of this that sand should generally not be used as a substrate for leos...if they are eating on it, they are injesting it, and it can cause impaction. However if you provide a tank/cage with some sand and some rock (or tile), and feed mealworms or smt else that can be contained to a hard, sand-free surface, it would be the most natural setting you could safely provide for your leo! It would also look very pleasing to the eye. Anyway, I just get bothered when people say that sand isn't natural...lol I just wanted to clear it up help everyone to understand the natural habitat/cage substrate thing. Hope this helps!

n/t = no trans
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Is this true? In every case with every leo in the wild they choose to hunt on surfaces that have NO loose soil around...where did you read this? I would imagine that when leos hunt in there natural habitat they often ingest loose substrate and often pass it no problem. I personally have always thought that impactions are due to something lacking in the husbandry(i.e. poor temps, low hydration, poor nutrition) rather than just being on sand or whatever.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me

They live in and around rocky outcrops where there is dry dirt..... There may be a few patch areas where there might be some fine sand but they are not living on it..... Sand impactions are sand impactions...... The reason why leos get them is because people keep them on it...... That is what they are doing wrong....... And what about people who feed leos crickets???? Should we tie little ropes to the crickets legs so they dont jump on the sandy area in the cage that should not be there anyway???? It is so easy to solve sand impactions and some people for some reason dont want to listen to people that know better...... All you pro sand people have fun putting your leo in a hole in your back yard every couple of years..... I will stick to paper towels and slate and keep my leos alive for years to come.......

Thank you for your input on the subject. Although your description of the terrain they inhabit is probably pretty accurate, I think it would be naive to think that this is the case throughout their entire range. There are many more people that keep their leos on loose substrate without incident , than there is people that do the same and have problems...to me this says something. Why does this happen to a few people and not everyone that keeps them on sand? The only other thing to consider is the other aspects of husbandry. Let me ask you this, do you breed leos? If so, what do you keep in you lay box? I'm heading into my 14th season breeding leos and I have kept all kinds of substrates in my lay boxes. I currently use a 50/50 mix of bed-a-beast and sand. My adults(55 total) often ingest and pass this substate no problem. I currently use paper towels in my bins as a cage substrate(for upkeep purposes only), but in past years I've had my entire colony on playsand without incident. I strongly feel that when a leo gets impacted, it is due to something lacking in the husbandry. If you give your leos access to good temps, fresh water at all times, and good nutrition, they sould be able to pass most substrates they ingest, in perticular sand.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me

Husbandry MIGHT have some sort of sway on impaction rate, but I think feeding habits play an even bigger role. Every leo has a different personality and habits, if your's is a very aggressive feeder, then putting him/her on sand might be a bad idea, as in the heat of excitement he might grab a mouthful of sand instead of the cricket; end result, POSSIBLE impaction (note I said possible, not definite).

Now what I don't get, is WHY RISK IT? Even if your leo isn't an aggressive feeder, maybe some sand got stuck to his skin in the middle of his shed and he ate the sand along with his shed; another possible case of impaction.

Yeah it looks nice, but so what. I use paper towels, and I don't lose any sleep over it. Wild leos are wild leos, they're smarter than captive bred leos, they know how to survive where they live. Captive leos are not wild leos.

If you want to keep your leos on sand, fine, but don't say we didn't tell you so if your leo happens to get impacted.

-Lemur 6

so they don't eat on the sand...

As a matter of fact I do breed leos along with other species and ny screen name should tell you that.....LOL..... I stated breeding leos when the high yellows were the big thing......What I use as a lay box substate is a mix of peat and spagnum moss..... Works great...... And I never had a female not lay in it..... Never had a grain of sand in with any of my leos...... Fresh water and heat will not stop sand from building up in the intestinal track..... neonates are at most risk but it happens in adults too..... I just takes longer to kill them..... Leos can be on sand for years without it affecting them but sometimes it takes that long to build up enough to cause a problem..... Some loose substrates are good for leos but sand is not one of them and I wont even get into wallnut shells or corn cob..... To me sand is not worh the risk especialy when these breeder leos I have are loved pets as well as the monitary worth of a few thousand dollars.....

StinaUIUC I think you missed the point.

If there's any sand in the enclosure, it has the possibility of being ingested no matter where the leo eats (heck you can feed the leo outside of the enclosure, but there's still a possibility of impaction).

The sand can stick to the leo's feet, the leo can drag the sand all over the place, the sand can get into the water, etc etc, millions of possibilities.

Leo's also lick things, that's what they do to familiarize themselves with their environment, if they lick sand, some particles will get swallowed. And don't tell me your leo's have never licked you.

-Lemur 6

Well if that's the case, then would that not happen in the wild as well?...I'm aware of the fact that they lick things, that's awefully obvious...it's just that when they eat on sand they injest large quantities, and that's when it becomes a problem. If they just walk around on it and get minute amounts into stuff, or even lick it every once in a while, they injesting small enough amounts to pass through their systems. It's when large amounts get stuck that impaction occurs...and that would only happen if the gecko is eating enough of it that it doesn't all get passed before the next "batch", and then not all of that would be passed, and so and so on, until they become impacted. Injesting small amounts occasionally shouldn't cause problems...except perhaps for a hatchling or juvie, who I wouldn't put on sand anyway. I'm not trying to start another war...God knows I'm not trying to start what happened the other day...lol I just get bothered when people say that sand is completely unnatural for them...I read some research thing somewhere that the researcher said he had been observing leopard geckos and their habitat and he specifically said that they had been on sand...Just because some of them live on rocky outcroppings where there seems to be no sand doesn't mean they never move onto sand, or that there isn't sand under rocks and such. I'm not saying they can't live without sand...obviously they can...Out of three setups I have I only have one with any sand, and its just the area at the end of the tank where the tiles don't reach. The main point is that when they are hunting they aren't on sand...besides, where do you think the wild leos lay their eggs if they only live on rocks and never touch sand?...in rocks?...I doubt it. I just think that it's perfectly safe to house leos with a partially sand tank if you make sure they aren't eating on the sand (i.e. mealworms in a dish...no crickets). If you don't want to house your leos with sand that's fine...but just because you don't want to do it for fear of impaction (whether it's likely or not), doesn't mean it's not safe for others who want a more natural look and environment. I'm not saying not to use paper towels and stuff...I'm just saying that sand can be safe if set up properly. This is what I've found from my "research," and I'm not going to change my mind. Do you have any examples of leos dieing when living in a partial sand enclosure and fed mealworms in a dish on top of a rock? If so please let me know; I'll change my mind if there's evidence that I'm wrong...but from what I've found I'm not. I won't change my mind without some hard evidence. Again, I'm not trying to start any fights...I'd just like some hard evidence that I'm wrong if someone wants to tell me that I am.

There is a hundred ways sand can get into your leos...... I dont understand why you continue to blind yourself to this fact...... I am saying to you that leos do not live on sand and they do not lay their eggs in it either..... There is plenty of soil in and around rocky outcrops..... Look at all the threads saying how their leos are having trouble pooping..... Or my leos have very sandy poop...... When ever some on that post a post like that they are usually keeping leos on sand...... The proof is right infront of you face....... Are you gonna be the next one to make a post like that???? I have been at this long enough to know what causes problems and what is safe for leos...... So you can continue to keep your leos on sand and make whatever type of obsticals you can for them to get to their food...... Maybe you should try tieing string to the mealworms and hanging them from the screen cover...... You know, just so the leos dont get sand in their mouths.....LOL

ok...first of all...i'm not saying entirely on sand! I'm saying partially on sand...less than half of the tank sand...the 2 leos I have in the tank with tiles and a small sand area at the end immediately started to use that area as thier "bathroom"...obviously they like the sand to do that. Also, I know leos get impacted when they live on sand...but that's ENTIRELY on sand....hello...did you not read my last post?? I want to know if anyone's had a leo in a partially sand enclosure and fed mealworms die of impaction...I'm entirely aware of leos in all sand enclosures getting impacted and dying. Also, in their home territory I believe there is no soil...it's clay, dusty extremely fine sand, and rocks. I said before I wasn't trying to start a war, and I'm still not...but it seems like you are...

I have read about properly cared for leos eating the sand because they don't use the calcium dish or something similar and were perfectly healthy, and proceed to get impacted.

The risk just isn't worth it.

btw I would consider that a special circumstance and wouldn't house a leo that did that on any sand.

The leos we keep are no longer wild, they can't be compared to their wild breatheren. Leos in the wild probably do eat alot of sand, but they probably also die from impaction in the wild as well (or they get eaten before they die form impaction).

I don't quite give a hoot what's been observed in the wild, because frankly it doesn't really apply to captive geckos. If you wanna argue what's natural and what's not, then consider this: it's natural to have a parasite load, but it'll kill a gecko in captivity.

My point is, why risk it? Yes it's been obsevered in the wild, but in captivity, it's been observed that sand causes impactions and death.

I'm not going to argue anymore over this if I still haven't convinced you, I'm just going to say again if it does happen to you, be it tomorrow or 10 years down the line, don't say we didn't tell you so.

-Lemur 6

They're basically the same as wild leos except that they are probably less resistant to parasites and diseases. Their digestive tracts are no different and would handle sand the exact same way...I'm sure there are some leos that die of sand impaction in the wild...but obviously not many, otherwise they'd no longer exist. Anyway...I've seen no proof that keeping leos in partially sand (less than half!) enclosures and feeding them mealworms has caused impaction...the only impactions I've seen were people keeping leos in entirely sand enclosures and feeding them so they are eating in the sand. Unless you can show me otherwise I'm not going to change my mind. I'm also not going to respond to any other posts in this thread unless they include hard evidence (in which case I will apologize and concede), as I don't want to start another leo war!

I am just correcting a statement you made about it being ok to put leos on sand and to prevent any other keepers from doing something that can put their leos health at risk...... You made a false statement about sand being natural an it being ok to house leos on and that is simply wrong...... There are alot of people that come on here looking for info...... Alot of new keepers might see that false statement and think it fine to keep leos on sand..... The next thing you know there are more and more post saying,"my leo cant poop", or "why is my leo not eating, I have it on sand"...... With all the info on leo impaction I dont know why there are still as many problems..... I can give you two examples of leos being kept on partial sand cages that have died as a result....... They were both a a mix of forest floor and playsand with lost of slate...... Both dead from sand impaction..... That is enough proof for me not to want to put leos on any amount of sand...... So to all the new keepers out there, DO NOT use sand as a substrate or you will have a dead leo...... Sand is not natural no matter what the post starter says..... Oh and leos should be given a varied diet..... Meal worm wont cut it...... They need mealworms, crickets, wax worms, butter worms and if possible, silk worms..... A diet of just mealworm is not good..... Infact there are parts of a meal worm that leos have trouble digesting and can infact cause problems...... No need to complicate thing by putting sand in the mix.......

I'll go tell some of my 9 year old males that thier diet just doesn't cut it. My entire colony including all the babies I raise up eat nothing but mealies. What is at stake health wise if you don't feed a varied diet? I wan't to know if I've been doing things wrong the past 13 years.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me

Just saying that it is not good to stick to one type of prey item...... I can tell you that an animal raised just on mealworms wont grow as fast as one raised on a varied diet.....

oh, also, were they eating in the sand? Were they provided a calcium dish?

Won't grow as fast...really?...why is that? And growing fast is prefered to growing slower? I get my leos breeding size by 8-10 months usually. If this is slow, I don't know what the rush for faster growth would be about.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me

What do you consider breeding size???? My females are not bred until they are 55 grams...... Some leo breeders start them at 40 to 50 grams...... I have a 40 gram female that is only 6 months old two weeks ago....... I aint gonna argue with you though...... You obviously have your own way of doing things and know what works for you...... Besides my main thing is hots..... But I have been working with leos for a very long time and just started to get into it on a bigger scale last season....... That is just one species I cant seem to give up no matter how many big bad hots I have......LOL..... I have just never been a big fan of a one item diet...... Even my snakes get a varied diet..... My five and a half foot plus gaboons take everything from rats to Cornish hens..... A varied diet is a better diet......

What is forest floor?...also how old were the leos and how do you know it wasn't the forest floor stuff that caused the problem?

Forest flor is basicly dirt...... The person that had these two leos keeps them on just forest floor now with no problems..... Yes there were cal dishes in the cage..... I cut the two leos open myself and the gut was loaded with sand..... Nothing else but sand...... I just want to know why you are so set on using sand...... And I want to know where you got your info on their natural habitat...... It must be different from all the books and info I read up on...... Maybe I am doing something wrong being that I never had a problem with sand impaction and at two months old all my babies are well over 20 grams...... Yeah it must be me......

You didn't say how old the leos were or what they had been fed. Also, I would not put babies on sand. Let me know age (size really I guess), and what they were fed.

Mealworms are a fine staple diet. Many experienced breeders exclusively use mealworms. There is no scientific proof whatsoever that mealworms cause impaction, or that they are less than healthy. A properly gutloaded - shake and baked with Minerali - gives all the nutrition that a leo needs. Plus mealworms are easy to keep - don't stink and are relatively inexpensive. It is a good diet to feed worms. All my breeders, subs, juvies and babies are fed mealies exclusively.

As far as sand substrate - this is a constant argument on here - and I don't want to get into it. I use paper towels right now - but will be switching to free-flo calcium carbonate subsrate for the spring/summer as a change. But I agree with Bill - you need good nutrition - clean water - etc - all the proper husbandry issues covered. I have never lost a leo to impaction.

But you can certainly caution against it's use - in fact, for new leo owners, it's probably best to avoid it.

Anyway - i just wanted to correct you mainly on the mealworm deal. You are a good person - but misinformed on that one.

Good luck with your breeding season!!!
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Monte Meyer
Powergeckos
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No Fru-Fru morphs in the herp room

Hi Monte,
I forgot the name of the stuff in mealworms that leos do not digest..... I will look it up and let you know what it is...... From what I have read up on it has caused problems in young leopard geckos...... It is true that you can feed them mealworms only but is that the best we can do for our leos???? I think not..... It is, however, scientificly proven that a varied diet is a more healthy one...... One of my partners feeds his leos nothing but mealworms and keeps his leos the same as I..... The only differance is my leos get a varied diet and my hatchling are almost double the size of his...... It is not genetic because most of our animals are related..... I am just telling what I see infront of my face...... Thanks for your input Monte...... My leos always have a bowl of mealworms in the tank at all times...... But they also get as many crickets and wax worms as they can eat...... And I also think that silk worms would be the best thing for them and that is what I just started giving them on a regular basis..... They cant get enough of those silks...... Anyway the mealworms were not my thing here..... It was the whole sand as a substrate thing...... That is something nobody can make me feel differently about...... Thanks again Monte......

Chitin is the stuff the mealworm skin is made of. Older mealworms (the ones with browner skin) have more chitin in their skin making them harder to digest (thats why people recommend feeding freshly shed mealworms since they're softer and easier to digest). However, if your leo's are healthy and at good temperatures they shouldn't have too much trouble burning through some chitin.

I also believe in a varied diet, but I think you can achieve a semi-varied diet using one food item giving a varied diet to your food items. So if you feed your mealworms a lot of random veggies/fruits, different types of grains, bee pollen, spirulina, powdered milk, anything you feel is nutritious, then should be fine.

My gecko seems to get bored if I feed him mealworms all the time. He gets REAL excited (buzzes his tail before eating) whenever I give him something new, like lobster roaches, waxworms, and crickets (I don't feed crickets too often since they carry parasites sometimes). This I feel is a good thing and helps with putting weight on leos (I mean if you ate nothing but grains for weeks on end, and then was suddenly presented with a tomato, I think you'd be excited too).

-Lemur 6

aren't roaches too big for leos?

Chitin