Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,
Within the context of training course regarding the keeping and handling of venomous snakes in captivity, I need 2 venomoids in order to let the trainees learn how to manage and handle venomous snakes without any risk of getting bitten and envenomated.
The vet who is working with my animals is willing to do the surgery.As he never did it before he is seeking advice, and the name and adress of the best specialists, in order to operate without causing any damage to the snakes.
If you have any information, please let me know.
Any help would be greatly appreciated
Greetings

How do you feel that is preparing someone for handling venomous snakes? What's going to happen when they have to handle the real thing? Do you actually think people will handle a snake with no venom the same way they would one that has venom? If you do, then you need to let someone more experienced teach that course.

Venomoids are not good to teach venomous handling with...... If someone is that unsure of themselves while handling hots they should not be doing it in the first place....... To most of us here there is no justification of making venomoids and the reason you gave is a pretty bad one........ Just because a vet is doing it does not mean there will be no risk of looing your snakes....... Venomoid surgeries fail alot more than the dealers let you know....... Do your snakes a favor and leave them the way they are...... If you are a good trainer than there will be a low risk of someone getting bitten under your watch...... Especially if you are gonna teach them the proper way to handle hots with all the tools...... Now if you are gonna teach them how to tail a 5 foot gaboon, well then you should not be teaching anyone how to do anything......

I have trained people to work with venomous and I agree, there is a big difference between handling the real thing and a snake that has been rendered "harmless". This can cause a sense of false safety that could lead to careless handling.

You do not specify whether you are working with Viperine or Elapid species. Personally I like to start with something small and not so bad (yet willing to be agressive)like a pygmy rattler. From there I work up.

Though I do not work with Elapids. I suggest you try a Black racer (preferably a bad tempered one)to get your students used to handling the hooks and/or tongs with a fast animal-before progressing in that direction.

That your vet is unfamiliar with Venomoid surgery dramaticaly increases your chances of loosing your snakes in surgery.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I agree with the other posters, this is no valid reason for butchering snakes (is there one?)...If you're "trainees" want to be trained in the husbandry of hots, then they should work with hots...as long as you're teaching them proper techniques and using proper tools, and unless they are idiots and stick a finger by the snakes mouth, they probably aren't going to get tagged. Notice I said probably. Anyone can get tagged. So in making the choice to work with hots and learn "handling" procedures, they should assume the risk of great bodily injury or death, that just comes with the territory.

np

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/venomoid?yguid=63701910

Venomoid trash.............

Doesnt make much sense to me to get venomoids, for teaching students how to handle hots. First, theres no guarantee that the snake has been completely RID of its venom glands. Wouldn't it be funny to find that out the hard way? Second, for almost every hot, there is a harmless snake that can come close to its body type and temper. For example, if a heavy bodied "ground" viper is what you plan to train your students on, may i suggest a Blood Python? They are plenty willing to strike. Tree vipers?.....a green tree python may be better? These are just examples....And there are many many more you can substitute vemonoids with. Hope this helps (the poor hots). lol

Venomoids are not necessarily the best route to go for many reasons. One of those reasons is simply that it is a seriously invasive surgery that causes pain and damage to the snakes for no health benefit to the animals. AZA accredited zoos do not permit such procedures for humane reasons. Another issue is liability. Your veterinarian is not experienced in performing this surgery, and if any scrap of gland tissue is left intact, venom will continue to be produced and regeneration can occur. If you like I will put you in contact with a more experienced veterinarian who can discuss some of these potential problems with your veterinarian.

Nonvenomous snakes can be used that are behavioral analogues to the venomous species. I have given presentations and hands-on training workshops for zookeepers and veterinarians on the safe restraint of venomous snakes, and I have always used fully venomous snakes for demonstration purposes while allowing the workshop attendees to practice on nonvenomous species that look and behave similarly. So they get to watch me tubing a cottonmouth and then they are given a bad tempered water snake to tube. They watch me restraining a king cobra and a mamba and they learn the technique by doing the same with a racer. Workshop attendees have rated the experience highly and have stated that they felt much more comfortable working with venomous snakes after this training.

If you will agree not to make these snakes venomoid, I will offer you my training materials and be available for phone and email consultation to help you safely train your staff, at no charge. You may view some of the publically available articles at www.snakegetters.com, and contact me at atheris a^t usa d0t net.
Snake Getters

I hate this topic.....

Thanks Robin for the link and MsTT for your constructive answer.
I'm myself absolutely against the venomoids, I own a large number of venomous snakes and look for venomoids because some insurance problems arose, the insurance won't cover any damage caused by venomous snakes during the course.
The goal is to obtain medical information in order to let the vet evaluate the risks and decide whether or not making venomoids is a "reasonable idea".

Our veterinarian is experienced and competent at performing oral surgeries in venomous snakes. Please allow our veterinarian to discuss the issues with your veterinarian and explain to you why venomoid surgery is both potentially ineffective for your needs and counter to the ethics of the veterinary profession.

In the meantime, please contact me privately and I will be glad to share our staff training methods which have been very successful while remaining safe for the handlers and humane for the snakes.

np
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

n/p

at my wildlife center, we have developed a training program that utilizes harmless snakes in teaching proper venomous snake handling techniques (and other husbandry/management aspects). Snakes like certain nerodia, racers, tiger ratsnakes, certain tree boas, and even some bloods can all mimic certain venomous species....and can probably deliver just as painful of an initial bite; minus the severe side effects of envenomation.

Using venomoids sends the wrong message and gives the staff a false sense of what working with a real venomous snake is all about.....but, I won't go so far as to say that it is wrong as I know of several highly respected reptile zoos who utilize venomoids in a responsible manner (meaning, the procedure was done by a competent vet well versed on proper techniques).

I, like Tannith, will demonstrate to my staff/group the proper technique with a real venomous snake and then use that demonstration to jump into the participants using the same techniques with non venomous snakes. It works great and I have received many compliments from this method. We have some very strict procedures in place and it is only after MANY months of committed dedication that a person is even allowed to shadow me to work with some of our venomous herps. Like the sport of falconry, you have to pay your dues by spending a lot of time observing....most don't have what it takes.

From a strictly philosophical standpoint, I have mixed feelings on this subject. All things being equal, I would rather see venomous snakes keep their "tools" and worked with only professional and competent people who have demonstrated a high level of commitment, knowledge, dedication and professionalism.

Tannith, I would be interested in talking to you about how you train people...we are always looking for new ways to improve our training techniques.

Rob Carmichael, Director/Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreation (IL)