Reptile & Amphibian Forums

He stated that he fed his cooked meats, chicken, turkey, pork. He says that by omitting insects and rodents, it is also omitting parasites.Does anyone agree with hos methods?

np

Hi
That person has healthy monitors that are reproducing, there's no denying that.

What he has NO proof of, is that its his methods that result in his success. There is no proof that diet is complete, or that it promotes tameness, or prevents parasites, whatever else he said, etc. Those are just his ideas of what he thinks is going on.

Case in point: Lots of docile monitors on this forum are friendly to people, and kill their own food. My female is one. Apparently she can tell the difference between a mouse and a human. =) Varanid genius, she is.

My own monitors are healthy and reproducing. That does not mean I'm doing everything, or even most things, right. It means, monitors are adaptable, and can survive in not so ideal conditions. I think my monitors are successful in spite of my husbandry, not because of it. Just like the Reptiles article guy.

Just because its in a magazine, doesn't mean its gospel.
D.

Anything would help

I am not the best qualified to do so. I am still learning about mine. I've had them less than a year. And I've never had a BT.

What I would like to say, is, learn about monitors in general. They have all the same basic needs, like food, heat, shelter. You don't have to limit sources to ones that say "blackthroat" in the title.

Try to get ahold of the new book "Savanna Monitors" by Thakoordyal and Bennett. "Nile Monitors" by Faust is a good one too for the basics. They are inexpensive books.

Check out the FAQ at Varanus.net, it is very informative, as is Pro Exotics website.

If you ask questions via forum, you will most likely get answers if you ask something specific, that shows you have done reading on your own. You'd be surprised how many people ask:
What should I get?
How do I take care of it?
This shows they are so unmotivated and uninterested in monitors, that they cannot search for any info themselves.

Keep in mind, that when you consider someone's advice on the forum, also consider their experience. What have they done with the monitors they keep?

About me, I'm still new. I've killed one monitor so far, a nile. The others are doing OK, I have a reproductive pair of BRNs.

Good luck. D.

Thank you for your feedback.I have been doing as much reading as possible. You say that you have a breeding pair, now do you agree with PE that buying a pair together is better then mix and matching?What is your expierience with this?How about the fact of keeping the pair from infancy compared to purchasing already adults. If you or anyone has any input, your advidce is appreciated.
Brandon

I have not had any experience raising a pair of animals (yet), so I am going on hearsay here. While I did have luck introducing my pair as adults, I think it was just that, luck.

I have read raising babies together from the same clutch is your best chance of them getting along. Youngsters from different clutches, less chance. Juvies less again. Strange adult animals,- big chance.

Its up to you. Decide what you want, and go for the best chance available. And yes, its my belief that having company is much better than a stagnant life alone. How a pair works, depends on you, and how much attention you pay to them. Give them the basics (heat, water, food, SECURITY!!!), this increases your chances. If they are stressed, they may take it out on each other. If there's any doubt, a second cage or divider may be helpful. You should be able to have them doing well singly, before you tackle having a pair do well together. A divider is a way of letting the animals smell and get acquainted with each other, without killing each other.

Everything is up to you, and how much attention you pay to their behaviors. How fast or slow you make changes depends on how YOU think the animals are doing. Take notes of anything unusual, and ask someone who knows what they are doing. I am not one of those. FR on Varanus.net has seen more behaviors than anyone, but try to make your questions specific. hahaha
That's as much as I know right now, which isn't much.
Good luck. D.

n/p

hmm, maybe I talk too much..I'll try to be concise..

Ok, having a pair is a GOOD thing, for the animals, and you. You will get much more enjoyment watching two interact.

The youngest you can get, is your best bet they will get along.

There is always some risk when introducing animals. Be careful.

As for some good questions you could ask, you won't really know, until you get the animals, and see some behaviors.

Like:
Why does one hide a lot? What are some signs of stress?
Why does one eat more food? Why is one growing faster?
Why do they mount/hiss/fight/hug/sleep together or apart/rub necks/bask on top of one another etc.

I think that's what you meant?
Have fun. D.

Yeah that's it. Thanks again

I didn't read the article so I don't know anything.How old were they?I might start mine on a pork,bacon,SPAM diet.I'm on one and have lived 40 years so fa....ar....ahhhh....911 PLEASE!..

at birth they are fed crickets. After 4 weeks they are fed the cooked meats

.

Although I won't argue his breeding success (or supposed claims) , I will adamently argue his feeding regimen. First, I think you will be hard pressed to find any scientific evidence to show that feeding a rodent and insect diet is detrimental to the health of captive monitors (and I think you will find even less evidence to show that rodents fed to monitors increase the risk of parasite transmission). If this fellow knew anything about the natural history and physiological aspects of monitors will know that they are well equipped to feed on carrion; even putrified animals (that are probably loaded with parasites). Feeding a cooked meat diet (even with proper supplementation) completely eliminates important gut content and other important organs (various seeds, plant material, etc. that rodents and birds feed on). I was actually pretty shocked that Reptiles would run such an article and I hasten to think how many baby monitors are going to have major health problems down the road who are fed a strictly cooked meat diet; just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. We feed our blackthroats a varied WHOLE diet of various sized mice, rats, rabbit, quail, insects, catfish, and a few other odd and ends along with a quality vitamin supplement (Minerall Indoor and/or RepCal and Herptivite). They are large, robust but active and in perfect health (and their fecal checks are always very good). Still, I know many very reputable breeders who have enjoyed tremendous success raising this species on a strictly rodent diet which is far superior to any cooked diet.

Rob Carmichael, Director/Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center - City of Lake Forest
Parks & Recreation (IL)

you guys need to add bananas to your diet, at least according to the article...

i gotta go, the microwave is dinging, my cooked SPAM is ready to serve to our monitors... : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Hello Robyn,

V. exanthematicus have been reported to eat ripe bananas in West Africa, and my captive 7.5 years V.e. did on a regular basis for many of her captive years, eagerly; my V.albigularis seem to prefer strawberries.....perhaps they prefer the tartness flavor??

cheers,
mbayless

LOL the thing is some people admit they themselves are getting by by the skin of there teeth when it comes to husbandry. So basically who is to say this or that is better??

Basically I agree whole foods is best but only when they have been fed properly.
You mentioned them passing on key things like organs, seeds, roughage, etc. well unless your whole prey item is fed that then it will not contain it. So by saying all whole foods won't work if you want to get picky about it. If I fed my mice gravel you think my monitors will be ok it is whole prey they get? LOL I know way extreme sorry not bashing just wanted to give a different opinion on whole foods.

Again they work best but make sure you know why they work best first.

My monitors live thrive, and breed for me too but I don't know much obviously I still offer my blackthroats a banana, or carrot, or straw berry for a treat every now and again. (shame on me)

"Although I won't argue his breeding success (or supposed claims) "

1)yes Dan was the only one who captive bred pure Blackthroat monitors until Proexotics, and no they arent claims, 80 out of 82 eggs hatching and surviving to be sold as healthy babies.

" I will adamently argue his feeding regimen. First, I think you will be hard pressed to find any scientific evidence to show that feeding a rodent and insect diet is detrimental to the health of captive monitors (and I think you will find even less evidence to show that rodents fed to monitors increase the risk of parasite transmission)."

2)I dont agree with his feeding completely, but he does in fact use supplements, Miner-all only nothing else. He is quoted on his video as saying he "as quick as possible gets them off of crickets because bugs-begot-bugs". He at no point in the video claimed rodents were a source of parasites but that he fed them other foods by researching what they eat in the wild and comparing it to commonly available foods as to nutritional value. I havent read the magazine yet but he says nothing of parasites in rodents on the video.

" If this fellow knew anything about the natural history and physiological aspects of monitors will know that they are well equipped to feed on carrion; even putrified animals (that are probably loaded with parasites)."

3)And yes he knows this well as he has had sucess on his own without anyones help doing something noone else has done until this year.

"We feed our blackthroats a varied WHOLE diet of various sized mice, rats, rabbit, quail, insects, catfish, and a few other odd and ends along with a quality vitamin supplement (Minerall Indoor and/or RepCal and Herptivite)."

4)I agree with most of your food sources as I use adult mice, jumbo mice, chicken peeps (week old at a foot long with my big BT/WT cross), roaches. I used to use quail, I use occaisional rats, never used fish (I dont agree with that one), for hatchlings I use crickets.

What video are you talking about Shvar?

The first captive breeding of BTs is on video from start of the project through a week before selling off the babies. Dan covered the whole thing on video, I have a copy of it here at home from when it happened in 2001. Contact Dan see if any videos are left. Very informative video packed full of alot of info on monitors and BTs in particular.

There have been numerous breeding events of BT Valbigularis types before and since: R. Williams of FL has bred them several times, and has had more consecutive clutches than anyone; R. Faust has had the second largest single clutch of a BT; First BT was in 1971; First WT egg was in 1877 I think it was. First record of a captive black throat was 1859-60. First long term study of WT was by Alfred 'Gogga' Brown 1869-1909. Some field studies discovered eggs from V. albigularis in E. Africa in 1965...so the lists go on...and if you would like to share and help me with data to this listing, Please let me know....all reports welcome....and full credit and names acknowledged in future publications....
m.bayless

I appreciate you clearing up the breeding validity of what Dan has done; great accomplishment.

Howerver, if he studied the nutritional requirements of BT's in the wild why on earth would he resort to a cooked meat diet (even with supplements). How on earth does this replicate a proper diet? My biggest concern is that people are going to purchase a young monitor and think that they can raise it on cooked meats alone; heck, they may as well start adding hotdogs to the diet. I just don't feel that simply adding a quality supplement is going to make up for the deficiencies of a cooked meat diet...but hey, I suppose time will tell who is right and who is wrong.

I had other concerns with the article such as the barren set ups, lack of visual enrichment of his enclosures, recommended size of enclosures (I personally think that a 6' x 4' cage is far too small for this large monitor), etc. but I will save that for another day and debate. One thing was apparent, though, and that is that Dan seems pretty passionate about BT's and I am sure he is doing what he feels is best for his animals and that is really all that matters.

Every female having access to both males on each side of her through unlockable trap doors. He loves the animals and feeds them a mix of eggs, meats, etc constantly varying with Miner-all. Afew of the BTs in the project he had separate for years, one was a family pet (Dracula) for many years before he had the business.

That's definitely better; personally, I think a cage in the ballpark of 16' x 8' x 6' is optimal and our black throat uses every square inch of his space. I don't doubt this man's love for his lizards or his successes; as in everything, people have differing philosophies as to proper husbandry and though I don't agree with all of his methods, I do appreciate his love for his animals and they seem to get lots of attention.

You keep breeding up that was the only one to breed blackthroats, That is pure whooey. They have been bred many times, even by other fla. folks. Muchless Robert Faust who produced something like 104 eggs from one female in one season.

There have been several zoos and lots of private people, including being bred back in the early 1900's. Please get over it.

Also, why the big hub-hub over what Dan does, hes allowed to do whatever he wants. The outcome will show later.

The only problem I see with his information is, how its used by others. Most likely his methods will be abused by others and it will harm there monitors. As they do not have the circumstances Dan does or the same understanding. But thats true with any method.

The real problem is naive people, who think every little thing is soooooo important. For instance, the food(diet) I really doubt its all that important if other husbandry conditions are met. The truth is, monitors can function of a diet of doorknobs for a time. How long that time is defines the quality of a diet(must include life events and time)

Once you have established a regime thats successful, you can judge a diet. If the animals produce for a year or so, then fail, then the diet is poor, if they produce for over five years, then you cannot argue and must call the diet good. The reason I use that time spand is, I believe that time period is a good average for wild monitors.

But as you know, there is always people who take information out of context. Like I have said, a diet of mice for larger monitors is reliable, it will achieve, good growth and good reproduction and support those for many years. So people say, FR said mice is the best diet and thats all he uses. The truth is, I never said its the best diet, I said its reliable, and no, that is not all I feed.

That information is good because it will allow beginers to concentrate of other elements of husbandry, instead of only focusing on the diet. Then later, they can improve that diet. But an intelligent person must understand context is the important element, not the mouse.

Now for the truth about Blackthroats, the problem with feeding a rodent diet is, blackthroats simply eat to much and most people will not invest that much money into them. So they use cheaper food. An intelligent person could figure out that a whole food diet with bulk cooked meat, may be an efficent way to feed blackthroats. Good luck Frank

Hi Rob,

Well, with an editor and staff who are not Reptile experts or do/did not refer to persons very familiar with varanids, statements like feeding cooked meats might have been omitted in that article...but that is the way of the world these days - "what is a little mis, or dis-information nowadays? Who cares?" Look at the New York Times - lie, and you get a multi-million dollar book deal to write about how you lied, but rob a 7-11 and you get 10 months hard labor in jail!! The system needs refinements to be sure....anyways...

As far as I know, there is a single case of parasite overload that caused fatality (Jacobson, 1965), whereby 125 Aponomma exornatum ticks were found on a single V. albigularis in RSA. They had also been found on V. niloticus, and presumably killed them as well, but not so many ticks had been counted as in this single incident. Pin worms and tapeworms also compromise those animals malnourished, or in compromised conditions themselves....as that is what parasitism is!
cheers Rob,
mbayless

PS: Your paper is ready to go, waiting for you know what....

THanks Mark,

Yes, I completely forgot about the "you know what"; I will take care of it early next week (sorry!).

It seems that the known cases of parasitism most likely happen on captive animals who are already immunocompromised due to the stress of captivity. Thanks for the account you provided; useful info.

Rob Carmichael

That I removed that night with tweezers light and magnification, That poor animal looked like a skeleton, but gained a few pounds in about 2 months.

Hi Hsvar,

M. Burridge has written papers on reptiles and the parasites found on imported animals....can you tell me the details as you best remember them and I will pass it onto him, with your name on it for his records. That is probably the largest number of ticks on a V.albigularis import reported....do you remember if you saw males (small dark ones) females (big ones) and tiny tiny ones (nymphs)? Were they spotted, uniform color or both types??
cheers,
mbayless

The BT that I bought from a place in Lacaster PA, suposed to be the worlds largest pet supply place now. The ticks, I initially noticed were the larger adults in the nostrils (black with a star on their backs) and some whitish smaller ticks about 8 or more in the nostrils and 4 in the ears, the lighter colored smaller white ticks (nymphs I guess) were all over the body most the neck, arm pit area, belly, base of the tail. The hardest to remove were the nostrils because I needed a bright light to see in them for removal. I dropped all of them into a container of alcohol that night as I removed them. The animal wasnt that easy to do this with because he was 3.5 feet, and just purchased.
Shawn

I am shocked that Reptiles would run crap like that. Welp like robyn I am off to pull my lean hamburger off of the stove top. i think i will dice up some mangos and pineapple while i am at it. have fun everybody, gotta go and change some of my pine shavings my monitors are on! cheers
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Varanus Creations

Blackthroats do like certain fruits and it is not bad for them nor does it harm them. So you people saying or making jokes about it are kinda of lame. They have been noted to eat them in the wild and many people do feed them every so often. It should not make the base of a diet but is not bad to add every now and again. Do some more research.

One other thing I would add is that I know Dan and he himself does not feed only store bought bulk meats. He also feeds whole prey items occasional mouse or chicks. I myself do not worry about his monitors though I worry about mine. I think more of you on here should be more worried about what yours are doing then others.

You can copy others easily but there methods may not work for you. So why not try making your own methods just use something that works and change it to fit your monitors and your needs.

Just my 2 cents worth to ad to this huge pile.

Dans monitors (not just one or two) have achieved sucessful reproduction with how they are kept which is alot more than all but a few of us can say for ours, so thats a sign that he is doing something right with his animals. Most of the comments have been from someone who read a few lines of the article or never read it because the info commented on was pretty distorted here. Ive yet to read it myself but I have the video he produced from start to finish of the whole project as well as correspondence from him when it was happening and afterwards to see his point of view on raising BTs. There are things that can be done different from the way a few people raise their monitors but the idea of using what works and understanding why it works is what allowed these things to happen for Dans BTs.

While I tend to worry about my own monitors then someone elses. I am friends with Dan and I couldn't let everyone keeping running off making him a horrible person.

I myself do not agree with everything he does but why some persist to just make smart a@# remarks is crazy. I thought this was supposed to be an forum about monitors not people. if you got a legit claim of a problem then ask if you want to share about your monitors do so. I know I know it is a free country and you can say what you like. Well sure but just remember opinions are like a@#$%^& everyone has one.

I just wanted to stress that albig's are noted to eat certain fruits and it is not bad for them so claiming anything else is silly and just shows you are limited when it comes to knowledge. I myself do not take anyones word for gospel. If I did that I would not be breeding anything as everyone does it differently and most setups might not work in my situation.

If you really want to know what a good food is study what they eat in the wild find what you can offer them and look into the values the food offers your monitors. I do not simply say whole foods is best cause if you buy hold foods that are not fed good food themselves they will only pass on junk to your monitors.

Just another 2 cents from me cash those pennies in or toss them out. Maybe someone else will find them lucky.