Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am not trying to start any more fights, but the attitudes on this forum are degrading to the hobby. Beginners that ask perfectly innocent questions are basically told they are idiots. People who want to try something different (mixing species, tank design) are blasted with negative comments.

As a business owner, I find this to be very counterproductive. I know that at every reptile show I go to, people will ooh and ahh over my frogs but tell me that they have heard that they are hard to keep. I then have to take 20 minutes to explain to them basics of frog-keeping. Personally, and maybe I'm lucky, but I have have kept a wide range of species, including mantellas, and have had little or no problems with any of them. Keeping frogs is not much harder than keeping fish.

Sometimes the simplest set-up is more benificial then a complicated one. Especially for beginners I suggest a simple tank design that allows them to carefully monitor the condition of their frog while maintaining proper conditions. While it is nice to have waterfalls and foggers and sumps and false bottoms, it is these things that have scared alot of people away from the hobby. There is nothing wrong with keeping a frog in an appropriate sized tank with bedding, a water dish, a few potted plants and mybe some driftwood for arboreal species. Obviously the frogs need to be sprayed a few times a day, but this is what spray bottles are for.

Despite my success with frogs, I was scared to do a "real" terrarium. Well I made 5 in the last month and love them, but I am glad I got into the hobby keeping things simple at first. I don't understand the absolute need for foggers and flase bottoms, and compact flourescent lighting. I have a double light strip with two power-glo light bulbs and my plants are growing rapidly and have brighter colors then when they were fresh from the greenhouse. I do have the tanks all in a room that recieves tons of natural sun-light, but it is not directly hitting the tanks. I have found that either Repti-sun 5.0 or Power-glo bulbs do wonderful for growing plants. I used them back when I had planted aquariums with fish. Humidity is provided by a waterfall and a daily misting.

All I am saying is please welcome beginner's questions. The more people that are involved in the hobby the better. I would rather answer a hundred questions than lose customers because they were too intimidated by frog keeping. This is a place for people to share information, not insult eachother.

Very godd points, and agree for the most part. What I dis like is, people not taking 5 mins to look for information that is easy to find. Search this forum alone on mixing and see how many posts there are on the topic. Impulse buying of pets is a huge problem.
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

I originally kept Dendrobates when I was in college, circa 1998. I kept them simply, because, honestly, that is all I knew...as that is what the folks at the shop told me.

Six months down the road, the frogs were dead due to my negligence. I had lost interest because the frogs were always hiding and the tank was just some driftwood and potted plants. I can admit to my faults when necessary.

A year and a half ago, I started heavily researching keeping Dendrobates again and found a wealth of knowledge about keeping these animals correctly...and maintaining their environments.

For myself and everyone I know in the hobby, it is more than just the frogs. It is about the flora and the microfauna, the lighting, the substrate, the background, etc. Most of the people that fail and give up, really had nothing interesting to look at in the first place. Or at least didn't try to make something interesting. Usually, that is not their fault, because nobody ever told them what can and should be done.

This hobby has nothing to do with snakes or lizards. These are totally different entities. This hobby is more in sync with reef keeping or planted aquariums, where a miniature ecosystem is being maintained.

For the most part, people that do not approach keeping Dendrobates from this perspective are the ones that do not succeed.

I'll cut this off now...
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David Knight
Tempe, AZ

3.0.1 D. imitator
3.2 D. leucomelas
1.2.1 P. terribilis (mint)
0.0.2 D. azureus
0.0.1 D. tinctorius (Alanis)
0.1 D. tinctorius (Brazilian cobalt)
0.0.4 D. auratus (Panamanian green and bronze)
1.1 M. madagascariensis
1.0 P. hypochondrialis

www.frognet.org/gallery/davidknight

Very true...
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

I am not referring solely to dart frogs. I love nothing more then creating miniature eco-sytems, but it does not have to be so difficult or expensive to do so.

I agree it is the same as keeping a planted aquarium or a reef. Some people can do it simply an succeed. But I have also seen people spend thousands of dollars on their set-up and thoroughly research what they are doing and still fail. I would rather see someone start off with a simple frog tank and an easy frog. I usually try to get my customers to start off with something like White's tree frog or a pac man. If this goes well, then they can try some more difficult species and more complicated set-ups.

Setting up an eco-system does not require all of the lastest and most expensive tools out there. Misting systems are great, but hand spraying my 20 tanks of frogs gives me time to inspect the tank and frogs and look for potential problems. Any new frogs shoud, be quarentined in a simple set-up so that you can see any problems that come up and fix them before it is too late.

Everyone has their own way of doing things, and I tell people that what works for me may not work for you. Each person has a certain level of comfort, and you have to take that in to consideration.

I agree that beginners should do their research and search the FAQ's before postng a question that is pretty simple. But sometimes they want sevral different and personal perspectives on a topic. Part of why I started this topic is that I am tired of seeing the same questions and discussions over and over again. I want to see more set-ups and frog pictures, thought the mixing debate is an interesting one.

Being in this hobby, I do not find this forum degrading. Just like “real life”, this forum has a diverse mix of individuals who not only share their opinions but their experiences with these beautiful creatures. Some are quick to put others down, and it is the responsibility of others on the forum to set examples of proper behavior.

Last time I checked, there has only been 1 fight on here, and that was with Mossman and some customers. The thread was removed very quickly by the monitor, so many of the people on this forum never got to see the thread. Having opposing opinions and discussing them isn’t fighting.

There are not too many people who have long term success with the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) strategy of frog keeping. As a frog breeder there are 3 -4 types of terrariums I put together for my frogs.
1. Temporary ones – are as simple as they get. A paper towel, and some LF Spaghum in a large deli container. These need cleaned 1 time a week, more often if possible. Toss in some cuttings for extra hiding spots. Maintenance level – very high, need to keep everything clean to prevent disease.
2. A temp 10 gallon. Use gravel for drainage with some soil mix and plant plants into the tank. Frogs can be kept in here longer between cleanings, but the tank may need drained if the water level gets too high. Maintenance level – usually pretty high, these are temp tanks and often they are modified, remade many times with a new batch of frogs. Regular drainage of water.
3. Self cleaning tank – huh??? I usually have running water in these with a fair amount of plants. I will use finer materials than the temporary ones. This is the group our breeder frogs are set up in. I do not put a background material in the rear of the tank, just a waterfall siliconed to the tank. Maintenance required: clean glass in the cage and change water out ever 3- 6 months.
4. A work of art – I still haven’t done one I am satisfied with yet, believe it or not. I am getting closer and should have one done in the next couple of months. This tank will be self cleaning as well and will have a misting & drainage system hooked up. Maintenance: Once set up all you have to do is clean the glass to see in.

From my examples above, you can see the KISS strategy is actually more work in the long run. Although you “…don't understand the absolute need for foggers and false bottoms, and compact flourescent lighting” many consider it vital in the recreation of their habitat. Terrarium construction and design is just as satisfying to the hobbyists as the frogs themselves.

We suggest beginners set up a tank in the 2 -3 range above. Most of the ones we build and take to shows are in this classification. The cost is low and they get into the hobby with a pesticide free tank, with the correct lighting and supplies.

I would like to congratulate you on your success with frogs. Truth be known, I have only been successful with the dart frogs. Give me a tree frog any day of the week, and it will die in my care within a few weeks.

Personally, the fact many potential customers have the impression frogs are hard to keep isn’t a problem for me. I am not looking to make a sale to an impulsive customer. In fact, I will talk them out of a purchase first and suggest they do some research and return in a month of two when you are ready. I prefer to sell frogs to a person who is willing to take the time and learn about their frogs, not to every person who walks through the door.

Like Kyle, many of us are tired of the same questions over and over again. Especially the questions they could have found answers to if they had performed a simple web search! I would be more than welcome to dedicate some web space to a Q & A page on our site. Newbies could be referred to it as suggested reading. Let me know what you think and we can begin working on some material.

David said, “For myself and everyone I know in the hobby, it is more than just the frogs. It is about the flora and the microfauna, the lighting, the substrate, the background, etc. Most of the people that fail and give up, …´ His statement captures what this forum is all about.

In closing, ask yourself this question. How have my terrariums changed since my first one? Ours have changed tremendously and will continue to do so. The information and knowledge I gain from this forum is useful.

Sincerely,

Melis
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Quality Captives

Great post, I think I did come across a bit harsh in a comment or two, but when there is a thread 5-10 lines down on the same topic, the person is not looking very hard.

What I find funny and maybe a little disturbing, is that I answer a lot of questions and I am by far no pro. I just did a lot of reading and live on my computer. I have had very good luck with my setups and frogs for the most part. I have lost a couple frogs along the way, but so far so good. From starting with 1 tank to now having 5 ready to go, I have learned a ton, and read even more while doing so. This is a great hobby and very very addicting.

The one big problem as with a lot of hobbies is that in a lot of cases there is no right answer. People like myself have a hard time excepting, well it could be this or that, or maybe this... Its about making your own ideas, and opinons.

Example: I may use 1/2 cup water to 1/3 medium for my ff cultures because my house is dry and I use paper towels over the top. This has worked great for me, but for someone in a more humid home it may not. It may just make a runny useless mess.

The point is people have to try for themselves to see what works. Becuase what works for someone may not work for the next.
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

Being a total newbie in the keeping of amphibians, I have been reading everything I can get my hands on for the last year. I have also been reading everything, and talking to everyone I can find online about the subject.

This isnt a criticism coming from me. I form my own opinions, but almost everyone I speak with tells me to avoid Kingsnake like the plague. The general consensus from these people...the way I read it...is that this site is made up of frog-keeping prima donnas, and you better not disagree with anyone, or they will make damn sure you dont want to come back.

IMHO certain aspects of this critique are very true, but their is a lot of great info here. I agree that the great hybrid debate is tiresome and clutters an otherwise good site to the point that any relevant info about care is soon so far down...or off the page, that it no longer gets any attention. Which is part of the reason the same damn subject keeps getting reposted. I've had my mouth slapped shut here before, and it makes me think twice before offering my opinions again...which doesnt contribute to a very educational experience... for me anyway.

I can remember being very young and finding a new toad and spending the whole day setting up his new home in the "taod box" That was this wooden and screen box my dad made for me. And i never got to swim in my litte kid plastic pools becase I would fill them with frogs turtles and newts. spending hours building elabrit little ponds in them. My mom alwyas found it interesting how that setting up there hapitat was just as important and fun to me as the herps.

I agree, I could build tanks all day long...
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

I think maybe I am coming accoss the wronf way. I firmly believe that natural tanks are the way to go and have become a true convert. But for beginners, building terrariums can be quite daunting. Before I got into the hobby I would stare longingly into the dart frog displays at the store I worked. I loved how they looked but was intimidated by the complexity of designing and building a terrarium. I eventually got a White's Tree frog after rescuing it from my little brother. I grew to love that frog, which has expanaded into over 25 tanks of frogs. I voraciously read the forum always trying to gain a new insight, but find it distubing how quick people are to cricitcize. I am an opinionated person as well, I'll admit. Melissa, I totally respect what you are doing, in fact it is you who has inspired me to finally give darts a try. From my discussions with you, it seems that you use a naturalistic, but simple approach, which is what I believe in. I agree that a person should expect to lay out $200 or more for a proper set-up. It is even more of problem with the lizards and cheap herps seen throughout the pet trade, when you are trying to convince a person that a $5 iguana needs a couple hundred dollars to be set-up properly. I don'thave a problem with anyone personally on this site and value their opinion, I am just voicing what I have heard from many people who are new to the hobby.

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Quality Captives

Heather,

You have taken the time and researched setting up your terrarium for months - not everyone does this, and these are the people who are most offended by the backlash this forum gives to stupid questions.

90% of the work I do with darts is planning. Doing the research about the perfect tank, the perfect plants, learning how to culture your own food, etc... Once you get the tank ready and add your frogs your work is done (for now). Then you sit back, watch and learn about what worked and what didn't, then you begin planning your next terrarium. Incorporating what you have learned from your first one, etc... This is a sickness folks. I have even read about a guy overseas that converted a room of his home into a tropical rain forest.

I don't see too many of us going that far, but you get the point.

Melis
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Quality Captives